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    (Original post by viviki)
    Don't far less doctors get disciplined than nurses. Thats what my friend who is a nurse has told me but I don't know about it from a doctors side.

    Roy Meadows was involved in cases that were so much in the public eye what else could they do. You're not telling me that if these cases had had a lower profile the outcome wouldn't have been different because I don't believe it frankly.
    No - plenty of doctors get discilpined. There are more nurses in the uk than Doctors so of course more nurses get 'done', but as a percentage of total number, the numbers come out the same. My term time job is working for HR in a busy NHS trust, so I can say that with some authority.

    And I'm not saying that at all - Meadows said that he truely believed that each mum was an abuser. I feel sad for him, especially if they were, as his loss of authority will have released them... Lets hope they were innocent...
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    (Original post by Fluffy)
    And there are plenty of *****:
    Lawyers
    Waitresses
    shop assistants
    Accountants
    HCAs
    Civil Servants
    MPs
    Pilots
    bus drivers
    etc.

    Lets start 1001 threads slating them each individually, shall we?

    I stand by my comment that if you can't be arsed to speak up, why do you expect anyone to listen?
    The point is that the consequences of a doctor being incredibly rude and having a crap manner potentially has far more serious consequences than that of a grumpy waitress.
    As a matter of fact I did complain about the one doctor to the surgery (I sent in a letter complaining) and as far as I'm aware they didn't do a bloody thing about it I certainly didn't hear anything back but then I was 16 and didn't follow stuff up as I would if I had that treatment now. The point is that you shouldn't have to complain. I'm not saying all doctors are bad but you seem to be implying that they are all perfect which you have to know is ********.
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    (Original post by Fluffy)
    Isn't she reputed to have been a cold, A1 b!tch? Bring on Mary Seacole!

    :tsr:
    This is sadly true. But not everyone knows that, so I still use it as an example.
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    Why?

    'Dodgy' accountants have lead to the suicide of at least 2 former Rover workers. The accountants involved int he liquidation of Rover are currently being investigated for ****ing the whole thing up - and lets not forget the MP involvement here either.

    I'm aware of more than one case where a family court decision has lead to suicide.
    The same regarding bankruptcy and other legal ranglings.

    Many other things are 'life and death' outside health.

    I'm not implying all doctors are perfect - if I was I wouldn't really have brought Roy Meadows into the equation, would I?
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    (Original post by StrangeKitten)
    So your just arguing for the sake of being a jerk? Mission accomplished!
    I can't see anywhere where Fluffy has been doing that :confused:
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    I can't see anywhere where Fluffy has been doing that :confused:
    He keeps arguing against people saying that not all doctors are great when he in fact admits that not all doctors are great. Arguing for sake of arguing is being a jerk to me.
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    (Original post by StrangeKitten)
    He keeps arguing against people saying that not all doctors are great when he in fact admits that not all doctors are great. Arguing for sake of arguing is being a jerk to me.
    I'm a she, and not being able to reflect on two sides of an arguement makes you the jerk. Sorry!

    In fact - not being able to tell the difference between TSR male and female logos makes me wonder about you too - observation clearly not one of your talents then...
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    Helenia, maybe you could answer my question as Fluffy hasn't.

    Now I'm not insulting doctors, or anything like that, but if you read my post before you'd see my Mam suffered 6 months of pain in her abdomen which turned out to be massive tumours on both her ovaries. In that 6 months, 7 out of the 8 doctors she saw, did not physically examine her. The 8th doctor she saw got her straight on the bed, felt her abdomen and sent her to hospital immediately.

    Right, if you have a patient come and see you with abdominal pains, wouldn't you examine their abdomen to see if you can feel anything? I was just wondering if she'd had the bad luck of getting 7 crap doctors, of whether these days doctors are trained differently? I just thought it would be common sense to have a feel of her abdomen?!
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    (Original post by * gemchicken *)
    Now I'm not insulting doctors, or anything like that, but if you read my post before you'd see my Mam suffered 6 months of pain in her abdomen which turned out to be massive tumours on both her ovaries. In that 6 months, 7 out of the 8 doctors she saw, did not physically examine her. The 8th doctor she saw got her straight on the bed, felt her abdomen and sent her to hospital immediately.

    Right, if you have a patient come and see you with abdominal pains, wouldn't you examine their abdomen to see if you can feel anything? I was just wondering if she'd had the bad luck of getting 7 crap doctors, of whether these days doctors are trained differently? I just thought it would be common sense to have a feel of her abdomen?!
    If I were going to the doctor for abdominal pain and they didn't examine me I'd say something like "could you have a feel for me to check it out?" or something similar. The patient is responsible as well as the doctor. It's you're health and you should try not to walk out of that office dissatisfied or like something's entirely unresolved (even if it's a "see how it goes for a few weeks, it's something).

    My only problem with medical staff (and of course not all do this) is the way they tend to ignore you as an individual. What might not hurt someone else, might hurt me. I've said before "please stop, that hurts" and been ignored. Or asked for things and been dismissed. Now, I don't know whether that's because I'm only just 20 now and they don't take younger people as seriously, believing them to be making an unecessary fuss. Whatever, I think SOME medical staff could be a little gentler or more ready to try and empathise with a problem (especially when no solution is easily forthcoming).
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    (Original post by * gemchicken *)
    Helenia, maybe you could answer my question as Fluffy hasn't.

    Now I'm not insulting doctors, or anything like that, but if you read my post before you'd see my Mam suffered 6 months of pain in her abdomen which turned out to be massive tumours on both her ovaries. In that 6 months, 7 out of the 8 doctors she saw, did not physically examine her. The 8th doctor she saw got her straight on the bed, felt her abdomen and sent her to hospital immediately.

    Right, if you have a patient come and see you with abdominal pains, wouldn't you examine their abdomen to see if you can feel anything? I was just wondering if she'd had the bad luck of getting 7 crap doctors, of whether these days doctors are trained differently? I just thought it would be common sense to have a feel of her abdomen?!
    First of all, I must point out that I am not a clinical student yet so I have no firm idea about procedures and examinations and so on. So my opinion is by NO means the correct one.

    If, however, I were in this situation, and didn't think that the initial diagnosis of IBS was working, then I think I probably would do an abdominal exam fairly early on, or arrange for ultrasound (I worked for a gynaecology dept last year and these were very common) to have a look at what was going on. Frankly I have no idea why this wasn't done, but as I don't know your mum's case history or the doctors in question, I can't speak for them I'm afraid.
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    Goverment imposed timings make things that doctors should do things that they would really like to do...

    My GP has 7 minutes per patient, which I believe is the national average, to welcome a patient in, take a history, find out what the patient thinks is wrong with them, address any concerns a patient may have, perform a physical examination, write a scribe if required etc.

    It was only when doing physical examinations for my end of year OSCE exam that I really appreciated what a tall order this actually is. Of course doctors should have examined your mums abdo, but doing that would have undoubtably been at the expense of a different part of the examination, and more often than not when a patient walks into a consultation, they have a better idea of what is wrong with them than the Dr.

    There's been great debate of late as to the real value of physical investigations - which is another way of saying that the Goverment have no idea and something has to give.
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    Thank you for answering.

    Blissy, I think the doctors my Mam saw made her feel so uneasy, that she didn't feel able to ask for a feel, I don't think it really crossed her mind, plus as Fluffy says, 7 minutes, patient in/patient out, sometimes makes you feel as though they're so busy you don't want to take up there time. My Mam did however, ask for a second opinion a number of times only to get a doctor come in, agree with what the first doctor said, then go out, in the space of a couple of minutes It just seemed that she wasn't treated well enough in my opinion, which is a shame

    Helenia, I'm glad that you would ask to physically exmine, and Fluffy I can appreciate its not a straight forward thing to do, I just thought with a tumour which is 12cm in diameter, it might be relatively easy to detect. My Dad actually felt my Mam's tummy and said there was something there, and when she went to the doctors about it, he basically said she was constipated and didn't bother examing here then :eek:

    Anyway, thanks for the replies, I see what you're saying Fluffy about the government, and how its mostly down to them. To be honest I really know little about politics, and wouldn't know where to start in how to help change this, or at least provide support. I know things must change, I just don't know how!
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    I had an optometrist who was very rough with me once.
    He wasn't very chatty at all and moved my head around quite forcefully, at one point I heard my neck click a little which I was very concerned about. Then he starting fiddling with his light majiggy and then he quickly turned off the lights so my eyes began to get used to the new light condiditions and then shone his light in my eyes really close. Naturally I turned my head away and squinted because the light was so bright but he yanked my head back round and told me very sternly to look into the light. I complained to him saying that the light was very bright and that i was having difficulty staring at it without blinking... but he just carried on with the examination. Then he changed eyes and starting complaining that i was blinking! What was I supposed to do? Sit there without blinking for 2 minutes while he completed the examination!?
    THEN if that wasn't bad enough when he put on the stupid opthalmic glasses, he overtightened them and dug them into my nose to which I went "ahh..." to and he said, oh shut up!
    :mad: After the test was complete, I went to the customer service desk and complained about him. I've never seen him again. :cool:
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    Whilst I'm sure there are doctors who do miss things - and after all, we all make mistakes - the problem is that if they save someone's life, they're just doing their job. So it only seems to be the ones that make mistakes that you hear about. Although these mistakes could potentially be fatal, the hours doctors have to work and the pressures they are under means we should respect them rather than disdain them for their negative attributes. Whilst it's easy to blame a doctor for something going wrong, there's only so much each one can do, and they're often fighting a losing battle.

    They also have to deal with all sorts of other pressures. A family friend met a patient who admitted that he was an illegal immigrant, but begged for help because of the extreme pain he was feeling. Taking pity on the man, and (I believe) following the hippocratic oath, he prescribed something that would help him. The man then thanked him and demanded he take some money. He refused, but was helpless when the man pushed £20 on him and walked out.

    the next day there was a front page article in a tabloid: "NHS doctors take bribes for prescriptions from illegal immigrants". It took him 3 years to clear his name.

    I have immense respect for anyone who could spend their lives helping people to live longer and healthier, in the face of people who won't help themselves and will actually harm themselves, much public criticism, governmental targets and pressures and when they are ultimately fighting a losing battle. Although not all doctors are fantastic and some aren't great, fluffy and helenia are right to defend their profession.
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    (Original post by tammy_girl)
    she started shouting at me saying i made my own condition worse etc........best thing was none of the ointments etc was workin for me thats why i was referred.....she was a complete and utter ****** :bawling: xoxo
    Awwwww :hugs:

    I had a similar experience thing with a dentist in HK when I was 6 The nurse/dentist (don't even know what she really was!) said, if it hurts, put your hand up. So I had put my hand up half way through it cus it did hurt - and she shouted at me and said "You put your hand up again I'll make it worse for you." :bawling: This is some place where the school takes you in to check your teeth or something I'm not sure if it was really a proper dentist - I was only 6!

    Since then I've always been scared of dentists - still don't like them. I remember the next time I went to a dentist when I was 8, this time in England - just as I was about to go in I burst into tears and ran - literally tried to run from the dentist. But that dentist was lovely it didn't hurt at all.
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    (Original post by jd27)
    Whilst I'm sure there are doctors who do miss things - and after all, we all make mistakes - the problem is that if they save someone's life, they're just doing their job. So it only seems to be the ones that make mistakes that you hear about. Although these mistakes could potentially be fatal, the hours doctors have to work and the pressures they are under means we should respect them rather than disdain them for their negative attributes. Whilst it's easy to blame a doctor for something going wrong, there's only so much each one can do, and they're often fighting a losing battle.

    They also have to deal with all sorts of other pressures. A family friend met a patient who admitted that he was an illegal immigrant, but begged for help because of the extreme pain he was feeling. Taking pity on the man, and (I believe) following the hippocratic oath, he prescribed something that would help him. The man then thanked him and demanded he take some money. He refused, but was helpless when the man pushed £20 on him and walked out.

    the next day there was a front page article in a tabloid: "NHS doctors take bribes for prescriptions from illegal immigrants". It took him 3 years to clear his name.

    I have immense respect for anyone who could spend their lives helping people to live longer and healthier, in the face of people who won't help themselves and will actually harm themselves, much public criticism, governmental targets and pressures and when they are ultimately fighting a losing battle. Although not all doctors are fantastic and some aren't great, fluffy and helenia are right to defend their profession.

    And, equally, patients have a right to defend themselves. (And many user groups (http://www.baggelboy.com/lifecraft/lifecraft.htm , http://www.directions-plus.org.uk/ , http://www.colc.co.uk/cambridge/clubhouse/ http://www.cambridgesca.org.uk/handb.../cam-mind.html http://www.cambridgeshire.nhs.uk/him...bership/mh.htm ) are 3 such groups that have been established to deal with patients' legitimate complaints.
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    (Original post by * gemchicken *)
    Blissy, I think the doctors my Mam saw made her feel so uneasy, that she didn't feel able to ask for a feel, I don't think it really crossed her mind, plus as Fluffy says, 7 minutes, patient in/patient out, sometimes makes you feel as though they're so busy you don't want to take up there time.
    The sad thing is, a lot of GPs would love to be able to spend more time with their patients, but simply can't, because if you run over with one, then the next one will be late and the backlog just builds up. We just need more of them. My current GP was very relieved when I last came in, I think I was in there about a minute all told - helps knowing a bit!
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    I think alot of it is time pressure as you said fluffy but they need to make sure people are asking the right questions. I got diagnosed with quite bad asthma last year when I was seen by the uni doctors. I've been complaining on and off about bad chests, if I got a cold in winter it'd always go straight to my chest, I get hayfever all summer really bad. I've been to the doctors since I was about 6 on and off and mum at one point (shes aschool nurse) asked whether it could be asthma and got told of course not, I was breathless a couple of times when I was in my early teens and actually had to go to casualty and I got told they were simply panic attacks although I've never felt panicky until I couldn't breathe and thats enough to make anyone panic.
    I think it was worse last yr cos I had glandular fever but I'm sure I've always had it and the doctor agreed that it was possible. The doctors at the uni surgery have been amazing. She had me in every week for 8 weeks last year because she wanted to check that I was improving and then every month for the rest of the year until it was alot better (at home that would never happen I'm sure) and I've had such a difference its the first time I can exercise and walk without being out of breath and I've lost a ton of weight through diet and exercise, my hayfever is manageable for the first time in years and they gave me the medication i wanted without moaning when I told them it was the only one thats ever made any real difference to my hayfever (I used to have a nasal spray that works well at another doctors but when I moved back to my GPs at home they would only give me beconaise which does nothing and wouldn't change it when I asked), oh and cos I have asthma I was offered the flu jab which means no horrible chest colds. But why has this taken years to diagnose, surely asthma isn't complicated. But looking on asthma sites I've seen tales that children have had to go to the doctors tons of times before they've been diagnosed. Why is this, is it simply time pressure or aren't they looking for the right things?
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    How do you know what the 'right' questions are though, especially in the constraints of time and resource? Sure there are standard differential diagnoses, but how many people are standard?

    Is the person presenting with refered pain in their arm and a temperature suffering from angina or gall stones?

    If medicine was that 'easy', there would be no need for doctors or other HCPs!
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    well if someone comes in repeatedly with a bad chest and has had breathing difficulties wouldn't you think hmmm this could be asthma rather than it all being unrelated and due to different things. I thought that medical records were there so that your problems could be cross referenced they dont seem to do that at my surgery at home. Maybe its just the one crap place in the UK I don't know but I know that the two other surgeries that I've attended have given me far better attention.

    I have a bad opinion of the medical profession because of my parents.
    my mum has an illness where practically overnight she lost the use of mobility in most of her left side. She had to leave work etc etc. Anyway she had two years where she was shunted to different consultants none of which could agree so she got told either it was all in her head or it was neurological, she got depressed it wasn't until 2 yrs later when someone sent her to a pain clinic that she had abit of a coping mechanism so she does the same exercises given to her by the pain clinic back then and at least it keeps her vaguely mobile. Anyway they still dont know whatit is. Its 9 yrs down the line and she only has slightly more mobility she tried physio and accupuncture privately just to try something and they only had limited effect. All our surgery do is give her repeat prescriptions of tablets and I don't think they've even bothered to see her in the last two years. They just sign the prescriptions, she tried persistance for a while by keep making appointments but they don't ever tell her anything new or refer her to anyone and they can't afford to go private so shes given up and resigned herself to it and I think thats pretty ****** really because it happened when she was 42 and still a very active woman.

    And then dad had his hernia, he was misdiagnosed and given some kind of tablet (I'm not sure what they said it was) for a year, and then when he was diagnosed he had to wait years for his op. now it might not be lifethreatening but its painful and I still think he only got it done in the end because he complained so much that they knew he wasn't going to let it go until it was done.

    So yeah not specifically blaming doctors but I think the NHS as a whole is pretty ******. It shouldn't leave you without any answers they should keep looking for answers and keep monitering you. Because mum had such a frustrating time with the doctor its very hard to get her to go for other things now, they both have a very low opinion of the system and at one point they both worked in the NHS themselves.
 
 
 
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