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What people think of muslim women covering themselves watch

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    Originally Posted by icarusgideon
    You are also not in a position to criticise the words of Allah. If Allah commands his women to wear the hijaab then so be it.
    i concur. People may regard the hijab as "oppressive" but whether they do or not makes no difference. The hijab is a requirement of islam. Nothing will ever change that. If the headscarf is banned, then you are preventing people from practicing their religion.
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    (Original post by s.ahmad3)
    i concur. People may regard the hijab as "oppressive" but whether they do or not makes no difference. The hijab is a requirement of islam. Nothing will ever change that. If the headscarf is banned, then you are preventing people from practicing their religion.
    then it's a shame women have no choice...(men should wear a hijab...equality)
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    (Original post by me!)
    This is kind of to do with the thread... In Saudi Arabia the 'rich' live in compounds seperate from the poor, there are guards at the gates and you have to have ID to be able to get in.
    In Saudi Arabia actually expatriates live in compounds, like you do in any other country. If you were an American expatriate living here you'd live in a compound where all the American expatriates live. These are guarded and you need an ID to get for safety, it’s like living in a block of flats and needing the key to get in, or having a porter at the door asking you your purpose and who you are visiting.

    It is not unusual for these expatriates to be paid a large sum of money by the companies they work for...that explains the rich and poor divide.

    Additionally, the social split between classes is prevalent in all major cities...so lets not be pissing in the wind ok!
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    I think the social cohesion is an important point: the main advantage of all muslim societies I have seen! The divorce statistics, suicide rates and any other statistics about social stability will give a clear image about that.

    Fact is, yes, the "eastern" countries and cultures are a lot poorer; that´s one reason for being more religious, people have to stick together. And to call their social rules oppression is a very limited point of view as this "oppression" exists in ANY cultural society: try walking round in a mini skirt in a puritan community in the States, the reaction wouldn´t be much different from a mullah´s one, would it?!?

    The balance between force and security is always a razorblade walk, our western balance is the extreme form compared to the rest of the world! Because we have significantly lost in culture we defend that loss with the idea of freedom (I´m not saying that´s wrong, it´s just human!) but PLEASE stop forcing our ideas on the rest of the world!!!

    I really had to chnage my opinions since my best friend is a muslim and I see her trouble living in "our" world.

    Was e.g. arranged marriage discussed here already??? That´s a much more relevant point about muslim society than these scarfs that scare poor French pre-school kids so much...

    totally agree with this post...Ben you've hit the nail on the head...
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    (Original post by waiting2smile)
    then it's a shame women have no choice...(men should wear a hijab...equality)
    I can only quote a muslim priest I talked to: "the Christians are ignoring biology... if you ignore biology you´ll always get into trouble. Women and men are not made equal by god, so ment can´t make them equal either. "

    But in fact men and women are spiritually equal in Islam, the fact that women don´t HAVE TO go to mosque on Fridays is based on their duty to take care of teir children, so they MAY pray at home.
    From such a basis you can debate that scarfs ONLY for women are no problem, a woman just has a different role in the society.

    By the way, I do also not completely agree with that! I think some muslim societies go the wrong way (sometimes also interpret the qu´ran wrongly or tendentiously) and impose unnecessary restrictions on women, no doubt about that; I think all the muslims here would be the first ones to agree.
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    (Original post by icarusgideon)
    Clearly you are not a religious person as you regard the English Law to be of higher authority than any other religion and I very much doubt whether you are christian. you may celebrate christmas and all but I dont think you follow the bible very closely. Therefore I dont think that you are in a position to argue that christianity and english law are hand in hand.
    I am not saying that they are not, because western states have changed the bible (i.e. the bible does not allow interest rates in banks, homosexuality, it does NOT promote divorce and is against abortion and euthanisia) so as to suit their own interests.

    You are also not in a position to criticise the words of Allah. If Allah commands his women to wear the hijaab then so be it. However if one refuses to do so then she is NOT muslim.
    I basically agree on that, only one word: it is a lot easier to make th qu´ran law because it is quite unmistakeable in most positions (--> clear rules like the hijah); while the bible is rather contradictive, I guess a consequence of it being written by tons of people over a long span of time. All rules for everyday life can be interpreted differently from different spots in the bible, unfortunately my knowledge is not good enough to give striking examples here.
    Only the 10 commandments & Company are REALLY clear in their meaning.
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    (Original post by ThornsnRoses)
    totally agree with this post...Ben you've hit the nail on the head...
    Thanks... does your avatar express any political position, by the way?!? ;-)
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    I can only quote a muslim priest I talked to: "the Christians are ignoring biology... if you ignore biology you´ll always get into trouble. Women and men are not made equal by god, so ment can´t make them equal either. "

    But in fact men and women are spiritually equal in Islam, the fact that women don´t HAVE TO go to mosque on Fridays is based on their duty to take care of teir children, so they MAY pray at home.
    From such a basis you can debate that scarfs ONLY for women are no problem, a woman just has a different role in the society.

    By the way, I do also not completely agree with that! I think some muslim societies go the wrong way (sometimes also interpret the qu´ran wrongly or tendentiously) and impose unnecessary restrictions on women, no doubt about that; I think all the muslims here would be the first ones to agree.
    Three cheers!
    This thread was becoming too much of a debate of western vs eastern way of life...
    Yes, people do misinterpret the meaning of the Quran so that it goes well with what they want. Extremists do exist and they are the ones who make Islam sound like an opressive religion where there is no freedom in various aspects of life. Unless the true teachings are not understood, it is difficult to realize that Islam is not just a religion but a way of life where equality is one of the foremost principles. By expecting women to cover their heads God isnt trying to make them feel 'bound' or 'restricted'. It is not an issue of having the freedom to 'wear what one wants' but in fact an effective way (at least it was considered effective previously!) to prevent unfortunate incidences (e.g. divorve, teengage pregnancies, adultery etc etc) from occuring.
    I think it is just a matter of perspective actually!
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    What ever floats you boat. If they want to they can but it seems to me like you are treating your self as the inferior life form which believe me no women is.
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    (Original post by sarahwhatevver)
    Three cheers!
    This thread was becoming too much of a debate of western vs eastern way of life...
    Yes, people do misinterpret the meaning of the Quran so that it goes well with what they want. Extremists do exist and they are the ones who make Islam sound like an opressive religion where there is no freedom in various aspects of life. Unless the true teachings are not understood, it is difficult to realize that Islam is not just a religion but a way of life where equality is one of the foremost principles. By expecting women to cover their heads God isnt trying to make them feel 'bound' or 'restricted'. It is not an issue of having the freedom to 'wear what one wants' but in fact an effective way (at least it was considered effective previously!) to prevent unfortunate incidences (e.g. divorve, teengage pregnancies, adultery etc etc) from occuring.
    I think it is just a matter of perspective actually!
    Are you from Kazahkstan? Are you muslims over there or orthodox christians or what is the majority?
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    (Original post by ben2111)
    Are you from Kazahkstan? Are you muslims over there or orthodox christians or what is the majority?
    I am basically from Pakistan...
    KZ is supposedly a Muslim state but because of he influence of USSR it is still not very dominant...they call themselves Muslims but admit that they do not have adequate knowledge whatsoever.
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    (Original post by ThornsnRoses)
    In Saudi Arabia actually expatriates live in compounds, like you do in any other country. If you were an American expatriate living here you'd live in a compound where all the American expatriates live. These are guarded and you need an ID to get for safety, it’s like living in a block of flats and needing the key to get in, or having a porter at the door asking you your purpose and who you are visiting.

    It is not unusual for these expatriates to be paid a large sum of money by the companies they work for...that explains the rich and poor divide.

    Additionally, the social split between classes is prevalent in all major cities...so lets not be pissing in the wind ok!
    But how's it like living in a block of flats? In a block of flats where do you find shops and schools and stuff? It's more like seperate lives, true there are social divides evident in most major cities but not as much so.
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    (Original post by bono)
    u seriously cannot have an argument.

    u clearly said that the east should folow the west because they r more liberal, democratic and it would increase social cohesion.
    where DID I SAY 'east follow west' FOR THE UMPTEENTH TIME.


    "but english law is built on christian principles and thus compatibility is rather easier to acheive."
    social cohesion is generally a good thing in any society.

    - why is that a good thing? who says christian principles r even correct, and that a law shud be built around them? isnt christian views old-fshioned and not in touch with society? - in east, many r religous, but not in the west.
    whats your point?

    "because the western value system is the overwhelming norm in western society, thus it is easier to see eastern principles being incompatible with those established in the west." - well obviously, its west, therefore they will ahve their own system. but why should the east become like west in order to be more compatible?
    why are you asking me?

    "you said Christians didnt obey their religious convictions." - not the western people who pretend to be chrisitans - but in fairness, how many read the bible, pray, go to church etc like a true christian should. exactly. same cant be said in eastern world.
    whats your point?

    "no. and thus you lose social cohesion." - i doubt the western world wants social cohesion. if USA blow up japan and iraq when they feel like it because they are so arrogant and bigheaded, then why suddnely should they have social cohesion?
    in the US, because they put being American ahead of race and ethnicity.
    its the desire to assimilate, that the first immigrant settlers demonstrated, which is the foundation of americas principles..

    "what does a muslim put first, the word of allah or the word of english law?" - exactly, they have belief, they dont just follow something because its set in stone in a book.
    and that goes against the rest of western society, hence a lack of social cohesion.


    "a complete way of life? a spiritual thing? how is that compatible?" - if eastern people wanna be like that, then who the hell are you to say they shouldnt be. WHY DONT U BECOME A MUSLIM, IF YOU'RE SO BOTHERED ABOUT MAKING FRIENDS?
    whats your point? im say that its not compatible with western values.

    "the same religion is incompatible with western, liberal democratic values." - wow, how dare they, the superior west blaah dee blahhh. (sarcasm)
    you have a very vivid imagination to link incompatibility with superiority.

    "muslim women have more respect?.. its oppression and nothing else. " - thats ironic coming from a person who hasnt a clue about the reality of eastern world or about muslim culture. so is respect not following a religion and dressing in skimpy clothes like you said u want to? many people dont admire that, even in western world.
    ive found that you lack the basic faculties required to conduct a debate. if you want to rant on, its probably best to start a new thread,otherwise people assume you are replying to me.
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    (Original post by 2776)
    Even when we support you, you always find someway to counter us.
    hehe, its not intentional i promise.
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    (Original post by bono)
    it is unfortunate, yes.

    but women have also been sexually abused and people blame it on wearing skimpy and revealing clothes....
    but they chose to where them.
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    (Original post by icarusgideon)
    vienna, so you know what happens in places like saudi arabia and other easern countries? so you know how they treat women do you?
    yes thanks.

    Clearly you are not a religious person as you regard the English Law to be of higher authority than any other religion and I very much doubt whether you are christian. you may celebrate christmas and all but I dont think you follow the bible very closely. Therefore I dont think that you are in a position to argue that christianity and english law are hand in hand.
    you dont have to be religious to appreciate the facts of history.

    I am not saying that they are not, because western states have changed the bible (i.e. the bible does not allow interest rates in banks, homosexuality, it does NOT promote divorce and is against abortion and euthanisia) so as to suit their own interests.
    er...ok

    You are also not in a position to criticise the words of Allah. If Allah commands his women to wear the hijaab then so be it. However if one refuses to do so then she is NOT muslim.
    ill think youll find i am in a position to criticise allah. personally, i think his fashion sense sucks and he seems abit of a square to me. other than that, i agree, and youve illustrated the whole basis of my argument.
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    (Original post by bono)
    that is correct.

    so many westerns just pretend to be christians, they dont actually follow the religion.

    Generally in the western world, people are more religious and actually follow their religion - praying, more mosque visists etc.

    so in terms of religion/faith, i dont have a clue why the east should become like the west.


    I'm not coming down on either side here, so don't attack me! I just wanted to point of that Vienna never said that the east should follow the west in terms or religion ( this statement has very little meaning as many religions have spread worldwide and, for example there is a substantial Catholic community in India and has been for a long time), but said that the many varying religions cause a problem in governments as they are incorporating a philosophy different to the one in which the state was originally conceived. I realise this is a challenge, but I think all states, Western and Eastern should strive to be tolerant and inclusive. Vienna was merely recognising the difficulty in this.
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    (Original post by 2776)
    Um, lets think this way, in a place such as Saudia Arabia, tourists are normanlly tolerant and they themselves cover up, ie no g strings etc, and long skirts instead. This is because they have to follow local laws/customs. And so it is with eastern women in France, they must follow the law, however morally wrong it is.

    We are debating about law, there is no mention of the morality of the law here.


    Eastern women should be free to cover up if they want to. Your argument is deeply flawed. Western women in France are free to cover up if they wish, and it does not insult anyone's religion to see a women fully covered. However in "places such as Saudi Arabia" to wear revealing clothing is an affront to their religion and way of life, so naturally visitors should be respectful.

    I believe that all people should be free to follow any religion they wish, as long as their views and practices are not imposed on others. Therefore, a Muslim women who wishes to cover up has every right, as long as this is something she wished to do and not done under duress. Our problem is we're always too eager to say what is right and what's wrong.
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    (Original post by hitchhiker_13)
    I'm not coming down on either side here, so don't attack me! I just wanted to point of that Vienna never said that the east should follow the west in terms or religion ( this statement has very little meaning as many religions have spread worldwide and, for example there is a substantial Catholic community in India and has been for a long time), but said that the many varying religions cause a problem in governments as they are incorporating a philosophy different to the one in which the state was originally conceived. I realise this is a challenge, but I think all states, Western and Eastern should strive to be tolerant and inclusive. Vienna was merely recognising the difficulty in this.

    hurrah!! thankyou.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    hurrah!! thankyou.

    You're welcome. I think they were deliberately not listening to you, and possibly didn't understand some of the things you said.
 
 
 
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