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V233 - Poverty Abolition Bill watch

  • View Poll Results: Should this Bill be passed into law?
    As many are of the opinion, Aye
    52.78%
    On the contrary, No
    36.11%
    Abstain
    11.11%

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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    Actually both of you are bang on the nail there. I have MPs who don't actively engage in discussion outside the sub forum for varying reasons, and it's the same in most parties.
    I think that's slightly different though. It's one thing not to engage in the public discussion but to discuss it in the subforum, with someone from that party taking the party's views to the bill writer, it's another not to engage at all. Engaging in the discussion in any place should allow an MP to consider the bill properly and have their views heard by the bill proposer.
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    It really pisses me off when people propose a bill and then cannot believe that people would dare to vote against it. Davireland was always doing it and it seems you do as well UoL. Stop being so bloody arrogant; no bill is perfect and caters to all.

    However, I think the bill is good (very good in fact) but I could never vote for a bil in which a billionaire pays the same rate of tax as a school teacher; it is just perverse to me. I could only vote for if there was some form of progression on the tax.
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    (Original post by smalltownboy)
    It really pisses me off when people propose a bill and then cannot believe that people would dare to vote against it. Davireland was always doing it and it seems you do as well UoL. Stop being so bloody arrogant; no bill is perfect and caters to all.

    However, I think the bill is good (very good in fact) but I could never vote for a bil in which a billionaire pays the same rate of tax as a school teacher; it is just perverse to me. I could only vote for if there was some form of progression on the tax.
    I never said that I cannot believe people would vote against this. In this place people vote against and for all sorts of things.

    My point is that some reasoning would be nice. It's not like the discussion revealed major problems and major objections. Indeed, if memory serves T&J was the only person to raise an objection that wasn't overcome and his reasoning, without wanting to be offensive, was a bit confused as the discussion shows.

    I also find your post here declaring your horror at the perverseness of this Bill odd in light of the single post your made in the discussions in which you stated that you'd probably vote for this Bill despite being uneasy about the flat tax.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I never said that I cannot believe people would vote against this. In this place people vote against and for all sorts of things.
    Errr

    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I really couldn't see much reason to vote against it. I still can't to be honest.


    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I also find your post here declaring your horror at the perverseness of this Bill odd
    I didn't call the Bill perverse. Read.

    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    you stated that you'd probably vote for this Bill despite being uneasy about the flat tax
    Well I made a spectacular u-turn. It'll probably go through anyway, no one really cares about anything anymore.
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    (Original post by smalltownboy)
    Errr




    I didn't call the Bill perverse. Read.


    Well I made a spectacular u-turn. It'll probably go through anyway, no one really cares about anything anymore.
    Err huge difference between not seeing much reason to vote against something and not believing that people would vote against it.

    And yeah I know you made a spectacular u-turn. My point is that it might have been nice had you let those supporting/producing the Bill know of your u-turn so that we could have discussed it, it's implications and considered changes to the Bill to gain support.

    On the question of perverseness, I quote:
    "I could never vote for a bil in which a billionaire pays the same rate of tax as a school teacher; it is just perverse to me"

    Since this bill does that which you call perverse I must assume that you consider it perverse. Or did you simply mean that it would be perverse to you for you to vote for such a Bill but that the Bill itself would not be perverse.
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    (Original post by smalltownboy)
    It really pisses me off when people propose a bill and then cannot believe that people would dare to vote against it. Davireland was always doing it and it seems you do as well UoL. Stop being so bloody arrogant; no bill is perfect and caters to all.
    While the way he said it is arrogant, I agree, I think his point was a more general one that he wants to know why people agree/disagree, and for people to engage in the debate or at least mention this so bill proposers can adjust the bill.
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    hmm...sorry to be difficult but I've thought about it more and I'd like to change my vote to yes.
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    Poverty: Abolished. Let's all go home.
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    (Original post by lotsofsnails)
    hmm...sorry to be difficult but I've thought about it more and I'd like to change my vote to yes.
    I don't have poll editing privileges, but I've noted this. At the moment, it will stand as 18 votes Aye, 10 votes No.
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    A flat tax?

    Never.

    A failed bill, i honestly hope!
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    A flat taxEquality for all?

    Never.
    Fixed your post for you
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    Hehe, equality. Overrated concept.
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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    Hehe, equality. Overrated concept.
    Will you be putting that on the top of your election manifesto?
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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    Hehe, equality. Overrated concept.
    That does, for some reason, some to be the collective Socialist opinion, given how the voting is going.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Fixed your post for you
    a) Equality? Are you a socialist? I believe centrists and some libertarians prize equity above all. And a flat tax destroys equity. Those who have wealth can better use it, and those who don't; well, they can't.

    b) Even on the subject of equality; the rich use public resources on a much greater scale than the poor. A flat tax ignores this fundamental concept.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Will you be putting that on the top of your election manifesto?
    Perhaps. But then it's not like I lead a Socialist party. Equality is an overrated concept. That does not mean, however, that I like poverty or extreme inequality.
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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    Perhaps. But then it's not like I lead a Socialist party. Equality is an overrated concept. That does not mean, however, that I like poverty or extreme inequality.
    Ironically, however, equality is far more of a liberal concept that it is a socialist one especially in Britain and the British world. :p: If equality is overrated, what say you of equality before the law, a key liberal tenet.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    Ironically, however, equality is far more of a liberal concept that it is a socialist one especially in Britain and the British world. :p: If equality is overrated, what say you of equality before the law, a key liberal tenet.
    Look, if i can't be bothered to properly explain my flippant off hand comments, I don't want you to be making fun of me. What are you, the opposition? :p:

    Nah, I believe in equality before the law, equality of opportunity etc. However, I think that idiots who advocate bringing about absolute equality of everything (and I have met people who do this) should probably be put into a commune and walled in.
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    (Original post by Thunder and Jazz)
    What are you, the opposition? :p:
    I am the Labour man, I come from far away... what can I say?

    Nah, I believe in equality before the law, equality of opportunity etc. However, I think that idiots who advocate bringing about absolute equality of everything (and I have met people who do this) should probably be put into a commune and walled in.
    Well, I think Rousseau had it right when he recognised the distinctions between natural and moral/political inequality. If a person is 6ft and another is 5fth they're never going to be equally tall and so a job suited to a tall person is not really suited to a short person. But I think we can strive for equality in the moral/political sphere which is something that humanity has created by its own hand. Marx's writings are entirely focused on this and so are socialists, well except the SWP and the New Labour "everyone's middle class now" crowds who don't seem to understand the world.
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    (Original post by Adorno)
    I am the Labour man, I come from far away... what can I say?
    I dunno, I'm not very good at spin.
    Well, I think Rousseau had it right when he recognised the distinctions between natural and moral/political inequality. If a person is 6ft and another is 5fth they're never going to be equally tall and so a job suited to a tall person is not really suited to a short person. But I think we can strive for equality in the moral/political sphere which is something that humanity has created by its own hand.
    Agreed.
 
 
 
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