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    "The male gender is different to the female. Women are not as sexually desirous as men "

    And you know this....how? ALL women are less randy than ALL men?
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    (Original post by Ludwig Wittgenstein)
    Converts? You make the west sound like a religion.
    What do we do with the indeginous British/French etc. people who have converted to Islam?
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Sometimes. However there are several things to point out. The male gender is different to the female. Women are not as sexually desirous as men hence there are no societal expectations in the visual sense as their are on women. Most people dress the way they do to get approval and praise, I just don't buy the argument that women in the West do it because it makes them feel good while Muslim women are forced to do so.
    Indeed, the vast majority of people do concern themselves with their appearance because they want to be accepted and liked by others but that is not to say they are forced to conform to one idealised image of the human form. There is a whole plethora of conceptions on what it means to be beautiful and desirable, and people naturally become concerned with one of these because it is the form which is appreciated by people who think similarly to them. These sub-cultures exist not to control people but rather to group together people who share the same assumptions. However to say that there are innate differences between men and women, is more of a reflection of your perception of the differences that have arisen as a result of centuries of either sex being treated differently. Both genders have the capacity to attract the other and be sexually desirable. If you are to demand that one dress in a particular fashion, then you must also apply that demand to the other gender. If you are to demand that one cover their head in a bag, then demand that requirement of the other.
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    (Original post by grippet)
    "The male gender is different to the female. Women are not as sexually desirous as men "

    And you know this....how? ALL women are less randy than ALL men?
    A bit of common sense really. The fact that pornography caters primarily to male audiences. The fact that to sell items to men, half-naked women are used (eg. Lynx adverts). Also the fact that most female singers have to strip down to barely nothing to sell singles (eg. Saturdays, Beyonce, Shakira). The fact that a lot of mens stores hire pretty teen girls whereas womens stores hire female staff rather than men.

    All those examples indicate that men are sexually stimulated more visually than females hence the assumption that men and women are equal in this matter is completely flawed.
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    (Original post by Casse)
    A bit of common sense really. The fact that pornography caters primarily to male audiences. The fact that to sell items to men, half-naked women are used (eg. Lynx adverts). Also the fact that most female singers have to strip down to barely nothing to sell singles (eg. Saturdays, Beyonce, Shakira). The fact that a lot of mens stores hire pretty teen girls whereas womens stores hire female staff rather than men.

    All those examples indicate that men are sexually stimulated more visually than females hence the assumption that men and women are equal in this matter is completely flawed.
    And you believe that in order to counteract this perception of yours, the solution is to cover their heads in bags?

    Women, like men, masturbate, enjoy sex and take pleasure in the opposite sex's form. However, I see no calls for men to cover their heads with a bag in order to be taken seriously.
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    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    Erm, no. Where did I even imply that? Please point it out.
    (Original post by necessarily benevolent)
    I can't see anything worse than conformity to an irrational, tyrannical, coercive load of codswallop "plugging the gap". Patriarchy is not necessarily a bad thing if it's a consequence of free choice.
    I was going to bold the first sentence but the entire quote is your own personal opinion. Patriarchy is not necessarily a bad thing? Wearing the burqa is tyrannical and done under coercion?

    Because unless I can't read - and I can read, very well for that matter - I'm fairly sure I offered backing to personal freedom over the degrading, brutal authoritarianism of the Islamic faith. Furthermore, I'm not supporting a ban because of my beliefs. I'm supporting a ban because I think the burkha is a dangerous item - a tool of submission.
    I would expect so this being a text based forum called 'The Student Room'. The two bolded sentences contradict each other.

    If people want to wear this atrocious garment in their own homes then they can by all means do so, but we're not going to publically tolerate the clear demonstration of support for wife-beating husbands, and customs involving the stoning of raped women in Islamofascist theocracies.
    Well that's fantastic. There's already laws against this and I endorse any action to prevent wife-beating and the stoning of raped women.

    An objection anticipated: "oh, but not all Muslim women are coerced into wearing this" (even in spite of the fact that it has nothing to do with their religion at all). Fair enough, I'm certainly willing to accept that some are, but (a) I can know a priori that no-one with a clear mind would wear this thing for kicks, and (b) the line between those being forced by their husbands (under pain of god only knows what) and those "choosing" to wear it is extremely ambiguous.
    I'm sure the vast majority of the population don't wear their clothes 'for kicks'. Regarding the bolded part, you could have this same problem with any form of dress code. I saw women wearing short skirts and leggings on a January evening, just after heavy snowfall. According to your logic I can also know a priori that no-one in their right mind would wear this sort of clothing considering the temperature and therefore it should be banned. However, I'm not arrogant enough to assume they are dressed this way by someone else or wearing short skirts under duress to titillate men whereas you seem to be regarding the burqa issue.

    Am I willing to stop a few wearing this item of repression out of "choice" so that I can prevent the practicing on the part of four-legged bearded creeps of callous, bloodthirsty misogyny towards their helpless wives? You bet I am (and anyone with an ounce of sensibility and humility should too).
    Again an incredibly arrogant attitude. You're automatically assuming that the vast majority of women who wear the burqa do it under coercion. In fact, a very tiny minority of Muslim women wear the burqa ergo the vast majority of Muslim women don't. Presumably this is because the vast majority of don't agree with covering their face whereas others don't share this opinion. Why is one opinion superior to the other? If you're against women being forced to wear the burqa that is fine and the legislation should reflect that. A blanket law banning a dress code whether or not it is their choice is a violation of liberty. If I banned short skirts and leggings in public during the winter, I could argue this on the basis of it being illogical, health and safety but you cannot argue the same against the burqa. In fact, there's probably a better case for banning short skirts when it is cold then an outright ban on the burqa.
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    As a muslim i feel if this law was published it would be very unfair on not only muslim but also some christian and jewish women who cover their heads. whatever a woman wishes to wear is her decision and she should be allowed to wear what she wants.
    I seriously dont understand how a woman wearing a veil could be a "gateway to radical islam" as it says in the news report, those women are simply wearing something they want to wear,this is an attack on the rights of women in france.
    however seeing as france is not a muslim country there is nothing muslims can do OP, it is actually part of sharia law to follow the law of non muslim countries when you are inhabitants of their land as long as it does not harm you.
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    (Original post by Kreuzuerk)
    And you believe that in order to counteract this perception of yours, the solution is to cover their heads in bags?

    Women, like men, masturbate, enjoy sex and take pleasure in the opposite sex's form. However, I see no calls for men to cover their heads with a bag in order to be taken seriously.
    Thats the thing. You are assuming equality in the law when this issue involves men and women behaving differently to one another.

    As I mentioned before, men are more stimulated by the females visually hence it makes sense for women to observe hijab to protect themselves from any harrassment. I've seen groups of men whistle and make comments to girls who walk past. These guys are like a pack of wolves and to protect women from any form of harrassment, hijab has been prescribed on them.

    Secondly, women aren't as visually as stimulated as men otherwise the advertising market would be covered with topless men selling things from tampons to watches.

    Furthermore, a woman who finds a man visually appealing is not going to attack him. And even if she did, he can defend himself. This cannot be said for women who are the most common victims of sexual attacks.
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    I'm sure the vast majority of the population don't wear their clothes 'for kicks'. Regarding the bolded part, you could have this same problem with any form of dress code. I saw women wearing short skirts and leggings on a January evening, just after heavy snowfall. According to your logic I can also know a priori that no-one in their right mind would wear this sort of clothing considering the temperature and therefore it should be banned. However, I'm not arrogant enough to assume they are dressed this way by someone else or wearing short skirts under duress to titillate men whereas you seem to be regarding the burqa issue. If I banned short skirts and leggings in public during the winter, I could argue this on the basis of it being illogical, health and safety but you cannot argue the same against the burqa. In fact, there's probably a better case for banning short skirts when it is cold then an outright ban on the burqa.
    You seem to premise a substantial portion of your argument in favour of women covering their heads in the fear of mini-skirts. This is absolutely ludicrous, it is possible for a woman to dress without wearing a mini-skirt. The fact that some women chose to wear a mini-skirt provides absolutely no legitimacy to the opinion that women should cover their heads with a bag.
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    (Original post by honeyisgoodforyou)
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100115/...dding_the_veil

    ABSOLUTELY DISGUSTING!!!!!

    Just to clear things up for confused people:

    1) HIJAB--> is what covers the woman's hair and is a MUST in Islam
    2) Niqab or Burqua--> what covers the face and is NOT a must in Islam
    3) Abaya--> What covers the woman's body.
    (REASON!) in order not for her chest, arms, legs, or any other visible skin to show. ONLY face and hands are ok to show. A woman might choose to NOT wear the Abaya and that is FINE as long as she wears a dress to cover the mentioned parts.

    But seriously, France is so ***** STUPID in doing this!
    And the lady has a point in saying that Muslims don't force Christians and other religions from wearing the hijab in a Muslim country...
    * Saudi Arabia is another story, as THEY are an example of EXTREMISTS and something that Islam does not approve of. Like the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) said that the best thing is to be in the MIDDLE, not TOO free and not too EXTREME....
    After all, Islam is simple and easy and doesn't force people to do things they don't like. God made everything easy for us....
    hijab is not a must
    IT SAYS BE MODEST
    NOTHING MORE THAN THAT
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    (Original post by Casse)
    Thats the thing. You are assuming equality in the law when this issue involves men and women behaving differently to one another.

    As I mentioned before, men are more stimulated by the females visually hence it makes sense for women to observe hijab to protect themselves from any harrassment. I've seen groups of men whistle and make comments to girls who walk past. These guys are like a pack of wolves and to protect women from any form of harrassment, hijab has been prescribed on them.

    Secondly, women aren't as visually as stimulated as men otherwise the advertising market would be covered with topless men selling things from tampons to watches.

    Furthermore, a woman who finds a man visually appealing is not going to attack him. And even if she did, he can defend himself. This cannot be said for women who are the most common victims of sexual attacks.
    I despise your ill-thought, repulsive and misguided attempt at defending your sexist logic.

    In absolutely no way, does it make 'sense' for a women to cover her head in order to ward of derogatory comments. The vast majority of the male population are mature enough not to make such comments whilst the vast majority of the female population are mature enough not to get offended by such comments. If indeed men as they vile people you suggest they are, then it is their responsibility to change their ways as opposed to forcing women to cover their heads in a bag. And what on earth do you mean I am assuming their is equality in the law - there more certainly is equality in the law.
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    (Original post by ali242)
    hijab is not a must
    IT SAYS BE MODEST
    NOTHING MORE THAN THAT
    Can you provide a quote from the Quran which explicitly states that women must cover their heads in a bag?
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    (Original post by Kreuzuerk)
    Indeed, the vast majority of people do concern themselves with their appearance because they want to be accepted and liked by others but that is not to say they are forced to conform to one idealised image of the human form. There is a whole plethora of conceptions on what it means to be beautiful and desirable, and people naturally become concerned with one of these because it is the form which is appreciated by people who think similarly to them. These sub-cultures exist not to control people but rather to group together people who share the same assumptions. However to say that there are innate differences between men and women, is more of a reflection of your perception of the differences that have arisen as a result of centuries of either sex being treated differently. Both genders have the capacity to attract the other and be sexually desirable. If you are to demand that one dress in a particular fashion, then you must also apply that demand to the other gender. If you are to demand that one cover their head in a bag, then demand that requirement of the other.
    Of course. The difference is however, who is more susceptible to that. One can look at science for example to see that men are more easily aroused than women hence in a free capitalist society, it seems logical to appeal to those innate attributes and make the "domineering" gender appeased. Therefore, the fashion industry, print media and pornography are all male run and designed to appeal to the male gender. Women can dress however they like, fundamentally it's their choice how they want to present themselves. Men should also practice self restraint and respect for women and create an environment whereby such expectancy is not present.
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    (Original post by You-Rock-My-World)
    What about the anti-Semitism a lot of Muslims show? You would not allow a Jew to go to an Islamic country without being hated. Just look at the middle east conflict.
    Also, what about Mecca? Non Muslims cannot visit Mecca, nor can Churches be built in Mecca, when there are mosques appearing everywhere in the UK.
    If a country is kind enough to let you in, you do not disrespect the values and culture of that country by forcing your religion onto them. You follow the values of that country. A bit hypocritical if you ask me, you do all you can to move to the west, yet you hate the west and try to change it?
    Double standards isn't it? White Europeans don't flock to live in Islamic countries and try to change them, and if they did, you would be the first to complain. You are lucky we are very tolerant in Europe.
    I was going to say the exact same thing. We are seeing more and more news reports of western people being arrested in Muslim countries for having sex with their boyfriends because they are not married or not covering up in public, but when we try and tell Muslims to do things by our rules they all jump on the racist bandwagon and the thing that really annoys me is that we all go 'oh we're so sorry, please forgive us' and they get away with it.

    Look at the Scottish police force giving out their new number on a postcard with a cute puppy on it; Muslim are outraged because they believe dogs are unclean and we ******* apologise and change the God damn picture! This is OUR police force, the BRITISH police force it has nothing to do with Islam!
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Of course. The difference is however, who is more susceptible to that. One can look at science for example to see that men are more easily aroused than women hence in a free capitalist society, it seems logical to appeal to those innate attributes and make the "domineering" gender appeased. Therefore, the fashion industry, print media and pornography are all male run and designed to appeal to the male gender. Women can dress however they like, fundamentally it's their choice how they want to present themselves. Men should also practice self restraint and respect for women and create an environment whereby such expectancy is not present.
    Oh, and in order to appease men, women should cover their heads in a bag? Why don't they just maul their faces with acid whilst they're at it, that'd certainly appease them. And really that article does nothing to defend your position; it states that women also think about sex five times a day. Surely that's enough for men to worry that they're not being taken seriously and therefore cover their head with a bag?
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    (Original post by Kreuzuerk)
    You seem to premise a substantial portion of your argument in favour of women covering their heads in the fear of mini-skirts. This is absolutely ludicrous, it is possible for a woman to dress without wearing a mini-skirt. The fact that some women chose to wear a mini-skirt provides absolutely no legitimacy to the opinion that women should cover their heads with a bag.
    No, I'm saying it's more illogical to wear short skirts or hotpants on a cold winter evening or even most days in England than it is to wear a burqa so why isn't the former banned on the grounds of it being illogical as well as health reasons? Also, I understand it is possible for a woman to dress without wearing a mini-skirt and a large number of women in the UK don't. In the same way, a large proportion of Muslim women don't wear the burqa yet a tiny minority do. In fact, in France only 367 women wear the full veil and 26% of those women are French converts. Also, according to the study the vast majority of women do it voluntary and they are under the age of thirty. The argument that they should go back to where they came from is uninformed. Considering up to 10% of France's population is Muslim and the population of France is 65million clearly the vast majority of Muslim women do not wear it. In fact, women who were born and raised in France and those who convert are over represented amongst veil wearers. The notion that burqa wearers are forced to has no evidence.
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    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    I was going to bold the first sentence but the entire quote is your own personal opinion. Patriarchy is not necessarily a bad thing? Wearing the burqa is tyrannical and done under coercion?
    That's not the issue at all. Of course it's all my opinion, who the hell do you think's saying it? :dunce: The issue is entirely whether or not my opinion is the grounding behind my intention to ban it. As it happens, of course it is - everything is opinion. Only you seem to think that where the brutal suppression of women is a justifiable, rational view, I perceive it as disgusting. You're still making out that opinions are all equally valid, even if it involves unjustified societal practices resulting in the defenceless living in hell on earth. Conformative patriarchy isn't necessarily a bad thing, but if, as you think, repressive patriarchy isn't to the same degree, then you have a lot of work ahead of you.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    I would expect so this being a text based forum called 'The Student Room'. The two bolded sentences contradict each other.
    No they don't. Okay, then, I know that the burkha is a dangerous coercive item.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    Well that's fantastic. There's already laws against this and I endorse any action to prevent wife-beating and the stoning of raped women.
    Talk about inconsistency. When the burkha and these go hand in hand, it's quite hard to see where exactly your logic is coming from.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    I'm sure the vast majority of the population don't wear their clothes 'for kicks'. Regarding the bolded part, you could have this same problem with any form of dress code. I saw women wearing short skirts and leggings on a January evening, just after heavy snowfall. According to your logic I can also know a priori that no-one in their right mind would wear this sort of clothing considering the temperature and therefore it should be banned.
    Er, what? If they choose to wear mini-skirts in the freezing cold then let them be - it's their decision. It is completely incomparable to the forcing of an item onto one's spouse. If you can't see that, you can't see anything.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    However, I'm not arrogant enough to assume they are dressed this way by someone else or wearing short skirts under duress to titillate men whereas you seem to be regarding the burqa issue.
    That's because the burkha is entirely a product of patriarchal repression. The miniskirt doesn't even come close.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    Again an incredibly arrogant attitude. You're automatically assuming that the vast majority of women who wear the burqa do it under coercion. In fact, a very tiny minority of Muslim women wear the burqa ergo the vast majority of Muslim women don't. Presumably this is because the vast majority of don't agree with covering their face whereas others don't share this opinion.
    Fine. I'm sure those not wearing it won't mind when it's banned then.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    Why is one opinion superior to the other?
    Because those not wearing the burkha are obviously not being forced to wear the damn thing. Those who do wear it are either (a) forced, or (b) doing it out of choice. Again, the line is too difficult to discern.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    If you're against women being forced to wear the burqa that is fine and the legislation should reflect that. A blanket law banning a dress code whether or not it is their choice is a violation of liberty.
    And you find this out how? Legislation is useless if it isn't put into force.

    (Original post by CombineHarvester)
    If I banned short skirts and leggings in public during the winter, I could argue this on the basis of it being illogical, health and safety but you cannot argue the same against the burqa. In fact, there's probably a better case for banning short skirts when it is cold then an outright ban on the burqa.
    I can, and have done.

    So tell me, again, why do you support the wearing of the burkha? Is it because you secretly like the thought of being able to force your spouse under your iron boot, under pain of beatings? Is it because you want that feeling of power when you force your spouse to wear a symbol of difference and inequality? Is it because you want dictatorial loons in the Middle East to continue with their misogynistic policies? Please tell.
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    (Original post by You-Rock-My-World)
    Double standards isn't it? White Europeans don't flock to live in Islamic countries and try to change them, and if they did, you would be the first to complain. You are lucky we are very tolerant in Europe.
    Exactly. A lot of europeans are afraid of appearing racist and so pretend not to mind in my opinion. At the end of the day, if Allah wanted everyone not to show skin (he) shouldn't have given us it.
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    (Original post by Princesschickenbelly)
    I was going to say the exact same thing. We are seeing more and more news reports of western people being arrested in Muslim countries for having sex with their boyfriends because they are not married or not covering up in public, but when we try and tell Muslims to do things by our rules they all jump on the racist bandwagon and the thing that really annoys me is that we all go 'oh we're so sorry, please forgive us' and they get away with it.

    Look at the Scottish police force giving out their new number on a postcard with a cute puppy on it; Muslim are outraged because they believe dogs are unclean and we ******* apologise and change the God damn picture! This is OUR police force, the BRITISH police force it has nothing to do with Islam!
    I agree, no wonder why more people are going to vote BNP. We treat muslims better than our own people.
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    (Original post by Paul36251)
    Exactly. A lot of europeans are afraid of appearing racist and so pretend not to mind in my opinion. At the end of the day, if Allah wanted everyone not to show skin (he) shouldn't have given us it.
    It doesn't make sense because Allah is the figment of an overactive Arabian imagination.
 
 
 
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