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France moves closer to banning full Muslim veil!!! watch

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    (Original post by Princesschickenbelly)
    It annoys me that people continue to use the 'it's not religion it's culture' argument. If it weren't for the religion the 'culture' would never have come about.

    You don't see non-Muslim women covering from head to toe in a sheet. It's because of their religion that these 'cultures' exist.
    Err no, religion is explicit in its commandments. There is no culture in Islam because living according to the will of God is not cultural. Besides what is it any buisness of yours what they wear, you don't see Muslim MPs introducing bills to ban other people's desired choice of clothing.
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    (Original post by Smoker)
    Nobody should fear Islam. Islam does nothing wrong. Misinterpreting muslims, and evil organisations such as the Taliban however, do exist, and fear mongering and warfare between western forces and third world muslim countries has resulted in a general air of hostility between the two parties. Anyone who has studied and understood the qu'ran with any common sense will see Islam is the opposite of a harmful religion, it is a beautiful one.
    What would you do about apostates? Not harm them? Or maybe just execute them?
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    (Original post by Princesschickenbelly)
    It annoys me that people continue to use the 'it's not religion it's culture' argument. If it weren't for the religion the 'culture' would never have come about.

    You don't see non-Muslim women covering from head to toe in a sheet. It's because of their religion that these 'cultures' exist.
    Incorrect. Yours maybe a valid argument for non-Muslim women, but I wont even get started.

    Culture plays a bigger role. If you had the slightest idea outside your purely white community, you wouldve known and not found the idea annoying.
    See Muslim weddings in the Indian subcontinent they contain mainly non-Muslim ceremonies, because its a part of the culture.

    Plus, even if i were to take your word for it, its certainly not a religious thing for females to circumcised in Islam, its a deranged cultural thing.
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    (Original post by lj106)
    The Danish cartoon or salman rushdie reactions are probably a good reason.
    Wasn't that in the same paper that refused to publish cartoon offending christ because it thought it would be offensive a year prior. Isn't this the same paper that has a history of supporting Nazism? I think they got what they deserved and Muslims shouldn't be apologetic. Muslims have more reason to fear the West after its actions over the past decade and decades before that.
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    (Original post by Smoker)
    Nobody should fear Islam. Islam does nothing wrong. Misinterpreting muslims, and evil organisations such as the Taliban however, do exist, and fear mongering and warfare between western forces and third world muslim countries has resulted in a general air of hostility between the two parties. Anyone who has studied and understood the qu'ran with any common sense will see Islam is the opposite of a harmful religion, it is a beautiful one.
    You may think that on paper it is all well and good (I disagree) - but what is much more important is the effect the Qu'ran actually has on its followers. The Taliban owes it's existence to Islam.

    I have not studied the Qu'ran, but I have read some of it. Besides - I do not think that is important at all when I can look up quotations or verses online, and interpret them myself (don't give me the translation argument, I can read Arabic).
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    (Original post by Princesschickenbelly)
    ...
    Muslim women may choose to wear modern clothes as a part of the western culture and the hijab as a religious thing (as many do).
    While some choose to wear their traditional Arabic dresses.
    Culture.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Wasn't that in the same paper that refused to publish cartoon offending christ because it thought it would be offensive a year prior. Isn't this the same paper that has a history of supporting Nazism? I think they got what they deserved and Muslims shouldn't be apologetic. Muslims have more reason to fear the West after its actions over the past decade and decades before that.
    Regardless of the paper, the cartoons were barely offensive and the muslim reaction was ridiculous to say the least.
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    (Original post by Princesschickenbelly)
    It annoys me that people continue to use the 'it's not religion it's culture' argument. If it weren't for the religion the 'culture' would never have come about.

    You don't see non-Muslim women covering from head to toe in a sheet.
    We dont see non-Muslim women covering from head to toe in a sheet because their religion doesn't require them to do so. I just realised that I didn't see the point you were trying to make by your post. You quoted me on a post in which i was responding the female circumcision issue.

    This argument annoys you because it doesnt suit your opinion and you are agitated at the fact that it makes sense- simple as that.
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    (Original post by honeyisgoodforyou)

    1) HIJAB--> is what covers the woman's hair and is a MUST in Islam
    2) Niqab or Burqua--> what covers the face and is NOT a must in Islam
    3) Abaya--> What covers the woman's body.
    (REASON!) in order not for her chest, arms, legs, or any other visible skin to show. ONLY face and hands are ok to show. A woman might choose to NOT wear the Abaya and that is FINE as long as she wears a dress to cover the mentioned parts.
    I think if you want to live in a secular country then you should be willing to abide by the secular values of that country, if not then you should go somewhere else.

    The hijab is not actually a must in Islam. One of my mother's good friends is Muslim and she does not wear a veil, nor do her three daughters who have all hit puberty. They dress fairly modestly but you would not guess from looking at them that they were Muslims.
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    (Original post by lj106)
    Regardless of the paper, the cartoons were barely offensive and the muslim reaction was ridiculous to say the least.
    You as a non Muslim are in no position to conclude this. What you define as offensive is very different to what they perceive. Not only did they have animosity over the West's action in Iraq and Afghanistan but the paper had the gall to defame a person they hold to stellar regard besides God. Had the intentions of paper been innocent I would've agreed with you but that wasn't the case.
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    (Original post by ahnaf.c)
    If i see a picture of your mom naked in a pigsty tomorrow in the papers i will barely find it offensive. There are many such images online. To me it'll be just another random woman.

    Whereas the cartoon of the Prophet, was of the most important Prophet of Islam and hence it has offended Muslims. Of course we dont expect that cartoon to offend you, to say the least.
    So, er, that gave muslims the right to burn down Danish embassies and to desecrate its flags?
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    (Original post by Avesta)
    You may think that on paper it is all well and good (I disagree) - but what is much more important is the effect the Qu'ran actually has on its followers. The Taliban owes it's existence to Islam.

    I have not studied the Qu'ran, but I have read some of it. Besides - I do not think that is important at all when I can look up quotations or verses online, and interpret them myself (don't give me the translation argument, I can read Arabic).
    The Taliban uses misconstrued verses of the qu'ran, and unverifiable hadeeths to justify what they do. The majority of muslims throughout the UK and the word disagree with the actions of organistions such as the Taliban.

    I respect your views, and I'm sure you aren't stupid, but please, of you do get a moment, read some more of the qu'ran, or ask a decent person who's a muslim about islam, because the reality is very different from the media-influenced perception. You can't interpret individual lines of the qu'ran without taking into respect the other lines that preceded it and follow it.

    (Original post by grippet)
    What would you do about apostates? Not harm them? Or maybe just execute them?
    Apostates are free to do whatever they want, and whilst hate mongering against Islam is hardly an admirable choice of career, its one's choice what views they convey. The hadeeth in Islam which discusses Apostasy and the killing of apostates must be read in its historical context to make any sense at all. Verses which could be percieved as being just as "brutal" can be found in every holy book of every religion if they're read out of context.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    You as a non Muslim are in no position to conclude this. What you define as offensive is very different to what they perceive. Not only did they have animosity over the West's action in Iraq and Afghanistan but the paper had the gall to defame a person they hold to stellar regard besides God. Had the intentions of paper been innocent I would've agreed with you but that wasn't the case.
    Totally agree.
    If they were really that innocuous, would have been a completely different issue. Instead they stood firm and refused to retract it. Their excuse: "We're not discriminating against Muslims, rather helping them integrate into our society."
    :rolleyes: Yea right
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    You'd think they'd have bigger issues to worry about other than a woman wearing a veil.
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    I think that France should analyse exactly how the Islamic veil has had an effect, other than that of bigotted opinions about France's fashion and values, and how these negative effects should be eliminated. In a so-liberal society, people should be able to wear whatever that they feel comfortable in without this persecution.

    The only places where this Islamic veil shouldn't be worn (the burka?) is in places where identity should be recognised, such as Airports. There is no excuse for that.
    Although I do not agree with the ban of the burka and potentially the Islamic veil, I do agree with France's initiative in denying women (any women) who do not integrate within French society and actually do something for France, the right to French citizenship. That is a fundamental country policy which naturally makes sense. Want to be classed 'French'? Then prove you can be.
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    What a terrible idea, I'm surprised if this is even legal to enforce such a ban. Every person should have a right to follow their own religion belief and follow it as how they see fit and I am astounded that this is happening in the twenty first century!
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    (Original post by ahnaf.c)
    Totally agree.
    If they were really that innocuous, would have been a completely different issue. Instead they stood firm and refused to retract it. Their excuse: "We're not discriminating against Muslims, rather helping them integrate into our society."
    :rolleyes: Yea right
    They were subjecting them to what every other religion gets, as well as what muslims do to the jews. Except that because Islam is special, when they get angry it's okay to burn buildings and kill people.
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    (Original post by 35mm_)
    So, er, that gave muslims the right to burn down Danish embassies and to desecrate its flags?
    Absolutely not. Dont take my word for it, even by Islamic standards their reaction was not acceptable.

    But you will not understand how sensitive the issue is for some Muslims. That has been proven with one man trying to kill the cartoonist. That should really tell you how offended they are.

    This topic came up before and I previously mentioned that for some its worse than their mothers being raped. You cant expect rational, cool headed behaviour from people who'v been provoked in such a manner.
    Im not saying what they did was right. I'm saying im not at all surprised by the reaction it brought about.
    It was perfectly predictable. God forbid, if someone rapes your mother, the law would expect you to file a case get a lawyer, wait for a trial only to see the man walk out of jail at some point. I wouldnt expect an average person to do that. I envisage you attacking the perpetrator of such a henious crime and attempting to kill him (although you may disagree). Similarly you will also say its ridiculous to compare cartoons with mothers being raped.

    But did you know that the English courts allowed a man the defence of provocation when he killed his mates because they made fun of his glue-sniffing habit?
    Some factors affect the "gravity of provocation" Religion is one MAJOR factor. The glue-sniffing habit was held to be one.
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    I live in France, and to be honest, I have no complaints. At least now I can see what the arab girls actually look like, instead of them looking like bottles of Guinness.
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    Originally Posted by grippet
    "The male gender is different to the female. Women are not as sexually desirous as men "

    And you know this....how? ALL women are less randy than ALL men?


    (Original post by Casse)
    A bit of common sense really. The fact that pornography caters primarily to male audiences. The fact that to sell items to men, half-naked women are used (eg. Lynx adverts). Also the fact that most female singers have to strip down to barely nothing to sell singles (eg. Saturdays, Beyonce, Shakira). The fact that a lot of mens stores hire pretty teen girls whereas womens stores hire female staff rather than men.

    All those examples indicate that men are sexually stimulated more visually than females hence the assumption that men and women are equal in this matter is completely flawed.
    A look through any women's magazine will show pictures on half naked men selling stuff to women. And "common sense" isn't really proof. Plenty of sexually rampant women and some indifferent men. But it's the old tale - women must be controlled so that men don't have to control themselves.
 
 
 
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