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    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...ssions-elitist


    This sounds like a step in the right direction. The central database for internships is something that'd make IB/Law/Politics much more accessible. Whilst KCL's policy may sound extreme and an example of 'affirmative action gone to far' I have to disagree as I was lucky enough to attend a public school and the majority of students there were far from intellectual yet all managed to get places at top universitities.
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    Well that's nice of you to give them your blessing, especially after having reaped benefits of the current system already.
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    (Original post by Entangled)
    Well that's nice of you to give them your blessing, especially after having reaped benefits of the current system already.
    Ever heard of a scholarship you sarcy ****?. I got my A-levels at an FE college. Try discussing something relevant.
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    Nonsense. There is nothing stopping people with less priveliged backgrounds from achieving well and getting into top universities. I find that a university lowering their grades, just because they went to public school opposed to private is pathetic and in all honesty really unfair on the people who did go to private school.

    The fact is that these professions can be described as elitist because they are difficult to make it into them. And people’s attitude will never change. In my opinion trying to reduce the elitism in them is just silly because it belittles people’s hard work to get into these jobs by making them seem less important. Yes so what if there is a lot of elitism surrounding these professions? Surely these people have worked hard enough for it.

    This leads back to the age old conflict of so called class war. Well if in an application they are going to look at things such as financial background then surely that just promotes the class war even more by this time favouring the so called working class students over the so called upper class students which in this day and age is just silly because there is nothing stopping anyone from any financial background achieving good grades and getting into a top university. And especially with things these days such as EMA so there is no excuse for lack of finance.
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    Oh look, the Marxists have done it again.

    I understand that it's hard for Labour to admit that their beloved state school system is an abject failure, and the ever-growing spirit of "blame discrimination for everything" isn't looking like it's going to go away any time soon, but this is getting ridiculously out of hand.

    This isn't just an insult to privately educated people (who, if you believed this article, are the ill-deserving bourgeoisie scum of the Earth, put in place to keep the good working class man/woman/transsexual down), this is also incredibly insulting to people educated in the state sector. How can anyone accept an open acknowledgement that students from comprehensive schools need a "helping hand" in life in order to be successful (because they're not good enough to do it on their own), when this is clearly fictitious?

    To deprive intelligent, hard-working students who have attained (or even exceeded) the necessary level of knowledge required to be trained in medicine or law or economics is one thing, but then to deliberately give their well earned places to those who have demonstrated that they lack not only the knowledge of the subject areas required, but also the ability to study any topic to a given depth is disgusting.

    In Britain, we have been world renowned for our impressive higher education system. People come from all over the world to study at the likes of Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, and so on, with the knowledge that a hugely disproportionate number of the worlds greatest minds have been educated here. Does Labour really think that by radically changing the demographics of these universities (from being populated by AAAA students to BCC students) isn't going to make some kind of negative impact?

    I suppose that doesn't matter though, so long as we sacrificed another dimension of our society on the alter of "social mobility" (Marxism).

    Something has to be done about this government - and fast.
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    This is why I will be voting Conservative.
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    (Original post by Xenopus)
    This is why I will be voting Conservative.
    You think they'll be any different? Hah.
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    (Original post by Salparadise)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...ssions-elitist


    This sounds like a step in the right direction. The central database for internships is something that'd make IB/Law/Politics much more accessible. Whilst KCL's policy may sound extreme and 'affirmative action gone to far' I have to disagree as I was lucky enough to attend a public school and the majority of students there were far from intellectual yet all managed to get places at top universitities.

    So you are blaming someone because they are born in to a family who work hard and push their kids and send them to private school?

    Why don't you blame the parents from poor working class families for being lazy and to get off their ass and encourage their kids to study harder!

    I get annoyed how they paint the picture of the poor working class as victims.
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    Gordon Brown announces that he will champion social mobility and defend the middle classes, but this is just another policy giving handouts to the lower classes.
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    (Original post by Good Apollo)
    Oh look, the Marxists have done it again.

    I understand that it's hard for Labour to admit that their beloved state school system is an abject failure, and the ever-growing spirit of "blame discrimination for everything" isn't looking like it's going to go away any time soon, but this is getting ridiculously out of hand.

    This isn't just an insult to privately educated people (who, if you believed this article, are the ill-deserving bourgeoisie scum of the Earth, put in place to keep the good working class man/woman/transsexual down), this is also incredibly insulting to people educated in the state sector. How can anyone accept an open acknowledgement that students from comprehensive schools need a "helping hand" in life in order to be successful (because they're not good enough to do it on their own), when this is clearly fictitious?

    To deprive intelligent, hard-working students who have attained (or even exceeded) the necessary level of knowledge required to be trained in medicine or law or economics is one thing, but then to deliberately give their well earned places to those who have demonstrated that they lack not only the knowledge of the subject areas required, but also the ability to study any topic to a given depth is disgusting.

    In Britain, we have been world renowned for our impressive higher education system. People come from all over the world to study at the likes of Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial, and so on, with the knowledge that a hugely disproportionate number of the worlds greatest minds have been educated here. Does Labour really think that by radically changing the demographics of these universities (from being populated by AAAA students to BCC students) isn't going to make some kind of negative impact?

    I suppose that doesn't matter though, so long as we sacrificed another dimension of our society on the alter of "social mobility" (Marxism).

    Something has to be done about this government - and fast.

    If I was gay, i'd want your babies.
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    Gordon Brown is a ****.

    I'm not at a private school, hell I'm getting a grant when I go to uni. I've worked damn hard for my A*ABa*d predictions, why can't others do the same?
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    (Original post by Salparadise)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...ssions-elitist


    This sounds like a step in the right direction. The central database for internships is something that'd make IB/Law/Politics much more accessible. Whilst KCL's policy may sound extreme and 'affirmative action gone to far' I have to disagree as I was lucky enough to attend a public school and the majority of students there were far from intellectual yet all managed to get places at top universitities.
    ff topic, but is that Alan B'Stard in your avatar? If it is, good choice A proper (although fictional) Conservative MP haha
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    Get a grip, if you are rich you are more likely to do well, if you are poor you are less likely.

    What if you're born into a poor family and can't afford the materials needed to study, you need to get a job working 20 hours a week at the age of 16 to help support your siblings.
    You go to a really bad comprehensive school and people who are smart/do their homework are bullied and beaten up (this happened alot at the school I came from).
    You come from a disfunctional family with no role models or have parents that put you down for actually working hard.
    The amount of peer pressure surrounding you to slack off in class and not do your homework.

    Again the above isn't just applied to poor people but it is much more likely to occur amongst them.
    While I do agree anybody can work themselves out of this when you are young and you have so many things going against you it is unlikely you will do well.
    Now I went to a **** comprehensive and got crap A level grades, I was then sent to private school for a year to resit them and I bumped them up by 2 grades each.
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    Always an interesting topic this one and I think the reality of the situation is somewhere in the middle. It is certainly possible for students from "deprived" or working class backgrounds to get into Oxbridge, that is evident every year - but this is a question not about Oxbridge entry but entry to the professions. Your progression through the medical ranks does not depend on the university you go to, it is doubtful whether Oxbridge is even the best place to go for medicine but Oxbridge certainly expedites progression through the legal profession.

    I achieved AAAAAb (before A*s were brought in at A-Level) in Maths/Bio/Physics/Chem/History from studying at an FE college and from a modest background. I decided many years before that to apply for medicine and truly believe I would have made a great doctor but despite my grades and the rest of my "rounded" application, the process was like trying to walk through a brick wall. Rejected from all of the universities I applied to with no reason given. So I took up a place studying physics instead - I wasn't willing to put myself through that system again - and so come into contact with med/dent students from time to time. Indeed someone from my college (whose mother works in the NHS incidentally) is studying dentistry and he told me that there are many people there with ABB, which misses the minimum offer of AAB, who are studying dentistry. The common bond between these fortunate individuals? They have a parent or parents who are dentist(s). Now come on...surely this isn't right?

    The question of elitism is seemingly directed in the wrong area - Oxford is a great vehicle of social mobility for most subject paths but the professions are distinct. Instead of investing such time and effort in criticising Oxford, the easy entry to the professions for those with a family in that profession needs complete reform.

    So, I think it is easy to jump down the throats of so-called "class warriors", that is an easy way to ignore the fact that there are still issues involving "elitism" but they are just not in the way Labour (hideous party) are suggesting. Things aren't all great.
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    (Original post by Blue Rose Bowl)
    Get a grip, if you are rich you are more likely to do well, if you are poor you are less likely.

    What if you're born into a poor family and can't afford the materials needed to study, you need to get a job working 20 hours a week at the age of 16 to help support your siblings.
    You go to a really bad comprehensive school and people who are smart/do their homework are bullied and beaten up (this happened alot at the school I came from).
    You come from a disfunctional family with no role models or have parents that put you down for actually working hard.
    The amount of peer pressure surrounding you to slack off in class and not do your homework.

    Again the above isn't just applied to poor people but it is much more likely to occur amongst them.
    While I do agree anybody can work themselves out of this when you are young and you have so many things going against you it is unlikely you will do well.
    Now I went to a **** comprehensive and got crap A level grades, I was then sent to private school for a year to resit them and I bumped them up by 2 grades each.
    You mention that they can't afford the materials for study, but then what the hell is EMA for?

    The fact is, life isn't fair. Even if you were completely right, there would be no way in implement this. People from failing state schools often do extremely well in the A Levels through personal determination, so how you to propose that we determine who in part of the "I went to a state school, tried my hardest and got bad grades" group (this is the group who don't "deserve" any helping hand on getting into uni), and who is in the "I went to a state school, didnt reach my potential, and got bad grades" group? The truth is, you don't - you just want everybody from the state sector, regardless of personal situatuon, to be given an advantage.

    Again, I'm sure it's true that in some state schools, conditions are so bad that some student may deliberately not reach their full potential. However, does this mean that they'll still be able to be good doctors/lawyers/bankers? How can you stand there and tell me that someone should get a place to study a top subject at a top university, when said person has shown no evidence of having the background knowledge considered the FOUNDATION of knowledge from which they build off of from the first day they start the degree? I know that I sure as hell wouldn't want a doctor treating me he didn't know the foundations of medicine.
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    (Original post by AidanLunn)
    ff topic, but is that Alan B'Stard in your avatar? If it is, good choice A proper (although fictional) Conservative MP haha
    Ah yes this thread would be a riot if Alan joined in (a future fake poster perhaps). This is my political inspiration http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBwaNNehHdI
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    (Original post by Good Apollo)
    Again, I'm sure it's true that in some state schools, conditions are so bad that some student may deliberately not reach their full potential. However, does this mean that they'll still be able to be good doctors/lawyers/bankers? How can you stand there and tell me that someone should get a place to study a top subject at a top university, when said person has shown no evidence of having the background knowledge considered the FOUNDATION of knowledge from which they build off of from the first day they start the degree? I know that I sure as hell wouldn't want a doctor treating me he didn't know the foundations of medicine.
    Totally agree. But this goes the other way as well such as I mentioned in my previous post (I am sure it is more widespread than endemic to my particular university) where we have people entering medical school and schools of dentistry with the basics of biology and chemistry not grasped. A parent in the field should not be a substitution for scientific fluency.
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    (Original post by Salparadise)
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...ssions-elitist


    This sounds like a step in the right direction. The central database for internships is something that'd make IB/Law/Politics much more accessible. Whilst KCL's policy may sound extreme and 'affirmative action gone to far' I have to disagree as I was lucky enough to attend a public school and the majority of students there were far from intellectual yet all managed to get places at top universitities.
    Eh, what?! If the majority of students from your school were far from intellectual, then they should NOT be going to university.

    I'm all for making university a place of equality in terms of financial states, i.e. poor intellectuals should be able to go to universities as easily as rich intellectuals, but the whole point of a university is that it habours the most intelligent people of a generation. We should not be letting in less intelligent people who happen to be poor.

    Universities should NOT be paying attention to economic background when they make offers. They should take the best students academically, regardless of whether they attend a state school, a private school, are home schooled, or whatever else. We don't want idiots in our universities who only got there because they happened to be poor. That is a shambles of a system.

    I was born into a poor family, and grew up in a housing scheme that is dubbed the murder capital of Europe. I attended extremely poor state schools and was surrounded by delinquents throughout my education. Yet, I managed to get the offers I needed to go to a Russel Group uni, and am currently the best student in my class in one of the most difficult and intellectually challenging subjects there is. If I can do it, given my circumstances, there's NO reason anybody else can't.
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    (Original post by Genocidal)
    Nonsense. There is nothing stopping people with less priveliged backgrounds from achieving well and getting into top universities. I find that a university lowering their grades, just because they went to public school opposed to private is pathetic and in all honesty really unfair on the people who did go to private school.

    The fact is that these professions can be described as elitist because they are difficult to make it into them. And people’s attitude will never change. In my opinion trying to reduce the elitism in them is just silly because it belittles people’s hard work to get into these jobs by making them seem less important. Yes so what if there is a lot of elitism surrounding these professions? Surely these people have worked hard enough for it.

    This leads back to the age old conflict of so called class war. Well if in an application they are going to look at things such as financial background then surely that just promotes the class war even more by this time favouring the so called working class students over the so called upper class students which in this day and age is just silly because there is nothing stopping anyone from any financial background achieving good grades and getting into a top university. And especially with things these days such as EMA so there is no excuse for lack of finance.
    I agree with everything said here.
    There is nothing stopping anyone achieving whatever they want, if they're willing to work for it.

    Something is wrong when the government are holding businesses to account with regards to their own employment techniques.
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    (Original post by JonnoE)
    Totally agree. But this goes the other way as well such as I mentioned in my previous post (I am sure it is more widespread than endemic to my particular university) where we have people entering medical school and schools of dentistry with the basics of biology and chemistry not grasped. A parent in the field should not be a substitution for scientific fluency.
    Yeah, likewise I would be completely against giving people university places based on anything other than academic merit as well, but I can honestly say I didn't realise that the "keep it in the family" attitude was a widespread as you've said it is (although I'm sure it does happen). How do universities even find out what profession your parents are involved in, anyway?

    I'm not sure what could be done to prevent this behaviour in the future though - I believe something was done back in the 60s which reduced it somewhat (or was this only for Oxbridge)? Perhaps a repeat of whatever they did then would be beneficial. Admittedly it would be challenging to police, though.
 
 
 
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