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Labour anounces drive to make professions less elitist watch

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    I truly think that the Labour party has good intentions by advancing social mobility, but it won't work by spending more money down the drain. It's a social problem, not a financial one. The party really lacks common sense; if it wants to improve social mobility than why does it house large sections of the underclass (and working class) together in restrictive inner city areas? Anyway, social mobility can only be achieved if the whole of society interacts with one another but this is unrealistically achievable; David Cameron can emphasise his "Compassionate Conservative" credentials but fundamentally he would not be able to mix with people who don't share the same interests as him. Neither could I for that matter.
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    (Original post by Good Apollo)
    You mention that they can't afford the materials for study, but then what the hell is EMA for?

    Again, I'm sure it's true that in some state schools, conditions are so bad that some student may deliberately not reach their full potential. However, does this mean that they'll still be able to be good doctors/lawyers/bankers? How can you stand there and tell me that someone should get a place to study a top subject at a top university, when said person has shown no evidence of having the background knowledge considered the FOUNDATION of knowledge from which they build off of from the first day they start the degree? I know that I sure as hell wouldn't want a doctor treating me he didn't know the foundations of medicine.
    I would be perfectly happy to be treated by a doctor who was able to to actually pass Medical School and his/her training. My doctor's GCSE and A-Level grades do not interest me at all. KCL has introduced a really good programme which allows people from poor backgrounds to enter Medicine with BCC, it is still up to the student to actually pass the course. The same course that people with AAA are doing. If they do pass then they are obviously capable, so why should they not be doctors? There is more to being a doctor then A grades.
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    (Original post by Good Apollo)
    Yeah, likewise I would be completely against giving people university places based on anything other than academic merit as well, but I can honestly say I didn't realise that the "keep it in the family" attitude was a widespread as you've said it is (although I'm sure it does happen). How do universities even find out what profession your parents are involved in, anyway?
    Ask someone in the legal profession if you want to be a solicitor/barrister and they will almost always ask if there are any lawyers in your family. I have known some awful students easily getting training contracts because of knowing someone/their background. Not to say it is clear in top unis but being judged on the level of your school education rather than your own merit I wouldnt say is uncommon.
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    (Original post by vroom9)
    Ask someone in the legal profession if you want to be a solicitor/barrister and they will almost always ask if there are any lawyers in your family. I have known some awful students easily getting training contracts because of knowing someone/their background. Not to say it is clear in top unis but being judged on the level of your school education rather than your own merit I wouldnt say is uncommon.
    Yup, and this is the true inequality in the professions and where social mobility breaks down. The whole issue of state education and how well people can do there is obfuscating the real problem; academic pupils will get to the top grades if they are in a bad school with an extra bit of hard work. There are numerous examples of people doing well from state education.

    The person who said medicine isn't just about the grades is right...there are far more sinister requirements needed to be satisfied.
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    All Labour ever does is lower the bar for people who aren't making it, rather than helping them become the quality they should. The annoying thing is that the bar stays the same height for those talented enough to make it, and they have to do twice as much work to cover their collegues who are there purely through positive discrimination.
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    ok, this idea is a bit insane and unfair..
    I went to a comprehensive school and the local council college and managed to get the grades that I did off my own hard work..
    My parents aren't rich, but they do support me as much as they can..
    I'd like to think I'd earned my place at uni studying medicine down to my own merits, rather than because I come from east London..
    Giving bright students from deprived areas some extra support is one thing, but lowering grade requirements is just unfair..
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    How about they concentrate on fixing the **** schools rather than demanding that important jobs be filled by people from **** schools. This seems more sensible, but of course takes more time and effort than one of these crowd pleasing idiot bills.

    I mean how many judges are appointed because people think they're superior due to the school they went to? No one cares about what school you went to, not unis nor employers. They care about how good you will be at the job. Privately schooled people received a better education and so end up being better judges, in general. I would rather we didn't suddenly get an influx of incompetent judges appointed because of their background. Instead give poorer kids the education they deserve and then they won't need patronising and damaging legislation to do them favours later in life.
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    (Original post by Good Apollo)
    I understand that it's hard for Labour to admit that their beloved state school system is an abject failure
    Are you unemployable because of state education?
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    Has anyone stopped to think that those who are brought up as privilaged kids are more likely to WANT to become lawyers and dentists.

    Fact of the matter is that state students are more free to do what they want after university as they're not burdened by the expectation of their parents.

    For example, if my dad was a doctor and paid thousands of pounds for my education, i'd sure as hell need to repay him somehow, how better than following in his footsteps or joining an equally prestigeous proffession?

    Now converesely, if my parents were less off and I was unable to go to private school, I would feel no solid obligation to become a judge for instance.

    Now, in both cases I may come out with a first in law, student A is going to want to persue a reputable degree in the law where as student B is free to do what he really wants to do.


    Now before you all bash me, I understand this is not the typical scenario but its one of the MANY reasons that the composition of "elitist" proffesionsis the way it is. Maybe labour need to sort out the benefit culture thats making parents apathetic, and also sort out the ****** state school system while they're at it.
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    This is a tough one.
    In four year's time, my boyfriend and I should both have the same degree from the same uni (No, I'm not saying we'll still be together, but just bear with me here). Most of his friends are all from public school, including himself. I went to a state school.
    At Sussex Uni, where I am now, very few Physics students went to a public school, and, I'm sad to say, large corporations don't sponser our Physoc, or, for that matter, pay for us to have the FT for a term.

    I used to think that if I can make it to a top 5 uni, with no help, from a state school, than it can't be that hard, but it does seem public school kids have plenty more chance to get in. A sorry state of affairs, but it's pretty true.
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    (Original post by Antimatter)
    I used to think that if I can make it to a top 5 uni,
    You didnt.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    You didnt.
    I'm going to Imperial next year

    EDIT: Oh, and had offers from Warwick, Durham, Imperial...
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    (Original post by Antimatter)
    I'm going to Imperial next year

    EDIT: Oh, and had offers from Warwick, Durham, Imperial...
    You didn't mention that... purely the undergrad uni.

    (was the edit for under or post grad? If it was for undergrad why didn't you go to any of those?)
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    (Original post by Quady)
    You didn't mention that... purely the undergrad uni.

    (was the edit for under or post grad? If it was for undergrad why didn't you go to any of those?)
    Because at the time of my A levels, I had family deaths, health problems, mental breakdowns, got kicked out of my house because my mum was depressed etc etc etc.
    So I'm doing a year here, then going to Imperial.
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    :confused:
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    (Original post by Salparadise)
    :confused:
    Now explained.
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    There are many posters making the point that if one works hard, one can achieve what one wants, therefore helping disadvantaged children and young people into the traditionally 'elitist' professions is tantamount to skewing the system. This attitude lacks considerable insight and empathy. There is a divergence in the opportunities children recieve, depending on their parents' social and economic position in society. In numerous ways, it is far harder for a child from a deprived background to succeed in life than for a child from privileged origins. A meritocratic society (which is what opponents to these sort of proposals usually support) cannot exist if there is not equality of opportunity, therefore the government is wholly right to attempt to lessen the divide in some way or another. It is not replacing the need for hard work, but it is lessening the extent to which a more privileged background is fundamentally helpful.
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    (Original post by Reems)
    Has anyone stopped to think that those who are brought up as privilaged kids are more likely to WANT to become lawyers and dentists.

    Fact of the matter is that state students are more free to do what they want after university as they're not burdened by the expectation of their parents.

    For example, if my dad was a doctor and paid thousands of pounds for my education, i'd sure as hell need to repay him somehow, how better than following in his footsteps or joining an equally prestigeous proffession?

    Now converesely, if my parents were less off and I was unable to go to private school, I would feel no solid obligation to become a judge for instance.

    Now, in both cases I may come out with a first in law, student A is going to want to persue a reputable degree in the law where as student B is free to do what he really wants to do.


    Now before you all bash me, I understand this is not the typical scenario but its one of the MANY reasons that the composition of "elitist" proffesionsis the way it is. Maybe labour need to sort out the benefit culture thats making parents apathetic, and also sort out the ****** state school system while they're at it.
    Government papers on widening participation go into quite a lot of detail about lack of aspiration limiting working class access to higher education.
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    (Original post by JoshyEls)
    Government papers on widening participation go into quite a lot of detail about lack of aspiration limiting working class access to higher education.
    I wasn't accusing anyone of being closed minded
    Just pointing it out as I didn't see anyone mention it...
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    (Original post by Reems)
    I wasn't accusing anyone of being closed minded
    Just pointing it out as I didn't see anyone mention it...
    I didn't think you were, I was just pointing it out. The fact that many people from working class backgrounds don't see professional careers/university as possible for people like themselves needs sorting out.

    You are incredibly naive to think that people from poorer backgrounds are free to do whatever they want, whereas people from private schools need to do what their parents want them to. You sound like a guy on my course who always complains about having gone to one of the top public schools in the country, and feeling so constrained and under pressure. Everyone is subject to social pressure. Surely it is preferable to be influenced to do something that will ultimately give you a nice life, than to be under pressure to sniff glue/skive school/have a baby/leave school at 16 to help support your family.

    The people at the top of society are the ones who are most free to pursue whatever they want in life, when you are used to priviledge nothing seems unaccessible or unachievable to you. I say this as someone who went to a state school, but a really good one in a nice middle class area. I honestly think that my academic achievement is at least as much down to the school I went to and the kind of family I grew up in as it is my own natural ability.
 
 
 
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