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    (Original post by becomingbindy)
    I know a significant amount about it, having studied it in great detail as an A Level case study.

    Yes there were forced abortions- they were covered up by the government but happened often. A family would get a knock on the door in the night and the woman would be forcibley taken and given an abortion. Neighbours were encouraged to snitch on eachother if someone became pregnant with a second child.

    Yes babies were left to die- in a country where having a son is a status symbol and very important to the culture, baby girls were often smothered at birth or left in mountains/woods to die.

    Yes there were forced sterilisations- also covered up by the government, but used as a punishment for women who consistently got pregnant after having one child.

    See these articles:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/941511.stm
    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=9766870
    Then I have to doubt the reliability of your so called studies-what are they based on? Other people's papers or news report on BBC? Can you tell me how much proportion of it is the firsthand information and how many examples have been studied? How many chinese women had you interviewed? I think you know much more better how important the first hand information and the amount of it is than me!

    Kill a baby girl? what do you think chinese people are? they are just average human beings like you who struggled to survive and lead a better life. Do you know how many females are there in china now? Mind to give an explaination on how have they survived from your study about babie girls were left to die?:mad:

    Yes, most people would prefer to have a son decades ago because in a country people largly lived on agricuture in that time of period, labor was strongly demanded. I think every country, every nation have gone through that. How you people dare to criticize the nation and its citizen while your ancestors had also done the same thing.

    Anyway, just make a point on how to do study and how to treat history fairly and objectively. It would be understandable if you people aren't able to do that, chinese people are and will always be fine after all, won't be looked less because of your bias and blindness.
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    Some of you may think this is going to sound very idealized, but i've always believed in unity and I don't plan on compromising that belief now.

    Some people argue that since Haiti was a mess to begin with, its their fault that they cannot cope and therefore should learn to get back on its own two feet. That, however, is easier said than done - Haiti didn't ask for a catastrophic earthquake nor did it deserve one. Noone does, and since we were all born on the same planet I don't see why we should let the borders of the countries that we live in separate us from one another - after all, we're all human. We need to learn to help each other.

    It may not be mandatory and it may not be your duty but if you had a single ounce of humanity in you then don't hesitate to do your part -ofcourse if you don't want to help then that's a personal decision but if you're doing it because you feel that they do not deserve it then think again. Some countries are less developed, some people are poorer but that doesn't make them any less deserving of help from stronger countries and richer people.
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    (Original post by Salt_)
    Thumbed over the last 4 pages and the general idea is people are still saying that we SHOULD care.

    I'm not saying that we shouldn't, I'm not saying it's a bad thing to help. I'm saying that there's no reason that we SHOULD. There's no reason that actually means helping them is imperative, rather than a choice.

    If someone falls over, it's not your duty, not something you ought to do, to help them up.
    If someone steals something from someone else, it's not your duty to get it back.
    If a car accident happens, it's not your duty to rescue them from the car accident.
    Someone needs a kidney, it's not your duty to give them the kidney.

    Do you see what I'm saying now? It's not that we shouldn't help, it's that there's no reason that we should. So far I've seen very few 'reasons' to why we should, which are basically all the same reason. Compassion.

    Now alls good on the surface, human compassion is something we can't control, it's not our choice. But that doesn't make it a reason that we should help. It makes it a reason that we might want to help. The problem is all the people who want to help are confusing it with that we SHOULD help and then shouting at people like me, and because I can see Gemma !'s post, her too, who don't want to help.

    The other reason I really just want to comment on was a few pages back. It basically said that we should help other countries, because if it happens to us and we don't help anyone, we wont get any help back. Haiti hasn't done a damned thing for us as far as I'm aware. Nor could it possibly do a damned thing for us. So by your own logic, we shouldn't be helping them.


    (Also, please stop saying all humans are equal, we're not. Some are born greater than others some are born weaker.)
    Haiti hasn't helped us because it can't - i think the point was that if the tables were turned, and they could, then they would. Ofcourse we can't say that for sure because, like you said, it would never be possible and the tables would never be turned. However, it seems that you missed the point.
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    We should give a damn for Haiti, because its current state of economic deprivation has its roots in the British colonial era, when we basically raped the country and abandoned all the slaves there without any form of infrastructure. Furthermore, it is in our collective brotherhood of humanity that every single sentient being on this planet has the right to a fulfiled and happy life; what kind of people are we that ignore such suffering and death? The Haitians literally had as much chance as the guys at Pompei in AD76 when Vesuvius erupted. The rich countries have the tech to save lives, but being completely greedy *******s, they decide to withold it. We have a duty to save these people, or we have no right to be called humans. The minute we stop fighting for each other is the minute we lose our humanity.
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    (Original post by pritnep)
    So to answer your question it's not imperative but as human beings we shouldn't let borders and other issues stop us from helping each other.

    :o: I don't often post in these big discussion so I realise my "argument" may not be as well informed as others but I think my point comes across.
    I wouldn't worry, what you've said is exactly right. It's not imperative, it's not something we ought to do. It's something you might want to do, I don't want to help, but that's my choice, you can help if you want.

    (Original post by rain4475)
    Haiti hasn't helped us because it can't - i think the point was that if the tables were turned, and they could, then they would. Ofcourse we can't say that for sure because, like you said, it would never be possible and the tables would never be turned. However, it seems that you missed the point.
    But even then, you're making a moral decision based on self interest. Which seems wrong, you can't make moral decisions based on whether or not you're going to benefit from it, if that was the case, it wouldn't be immoral to steal, murder, rape etc.

    It seems you've missed the point.
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    (Original post by izzys)
    Then I have to doubt the reliability of your so called studies-what are they based on? Other people's papers or news report on BBC? Can you tell me how much proportion of it is the firsthand information and how many examples have been studied? How many chinese women had you interviewed? I think you know much more better how important the first hand information and the amount of it is than me!

    Kill a baby girl? what do you think chinese people are? they are just average human beings like you who struggled to survive and lead a better life. Do you know how many females are there in china now? Mind to give an explaination on how have they survived from your study about babie girls were left to die?:mad:

    Yes, most people would prefer to have a son decades ago because in a country people largly lived on agricuture in that time of period, labor was strongly demanded. I think every country, every nation have gone through that. How you people dare to criticize the nation and its citizen while your ancestors had also done the same thing.

    Anyway, just make a point on how to do study and how to treat history fairly and objectively. It would be understandable if you people aren't able to do that, chinese people are and will always be fine after all, won't be looked less because of your bias and blindness.
    This was an A Level Geography case study, and the information I have came from course text books, books written on the topic, and articles and news reports from reliable institutes such as the BBC, so I think my information is reliable- I doubt an A Level course text book (which contained sources such as interviews, and even pictures of dead baby girls in the gutter) would feed me a complete set of lies. I also watched a documentary for the BBC in which numerous Chinese women told their experiences of forced sterilisation and abortion.

    And of course I'm not saying that every baby girl was killed in China, however a significant number of infant deaths did occur (one woman on the documentary even admitted to paying someone to smother her newborn baby girl because she wanted a boy).

    In lots of areas of rural China, agriculture is still the sole livelihood of the people- although the cities of China are developing rapidly, the rural areas are still quite undeveloped.

    I think you should be a little more open minded and realise that whether you would like it to be true or not, these horrible things did happen. Just type "china one child policy forced abortions/forced sterilisations" into a search engine and you'll find hundreds of reputable articles that reinforce my point.
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    Why should we care; because of basic moral principles we are lucky to not be in such a position which was not self-afflicted, also we can afford to give aid all western countries have a budget allocated for foreign aid. People can personally choose to give money if they wish but governments should give money. The main problem with aid is that it's often mismanaged, this is the main problem with aid giving particularly in heavily corrupt African governments. But nonetheless its no reason to stop giving aid, they merely need to set conditions on giving aid by making its expenditure transparent so aidgivers can tell if its been misused. Of course this is easier said than done.
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    So because a country is 'weaker' it should be killed off? What makes a country stronger? It's mere luck you were born into a 'stronger' country as you put it. They aren't stronger. They have just developed at a faster rate due to having resources. I don't see why just because of where someone is born means you can't help them. True we shouldnt be in Iraq, but if you were a Haitian, i doubt you'd want other people to desert you.
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    (Original post by Salt_)

    But even then, you're making a moral decision based on self interest. Which seems wrong, you can't make moral decisions based on whether or not you're going to benefit from it, if that was the case, it wouldn't be immoral to steal, murder, rape etc.

    It seems you've missed the point.
    you're not helping for self interest if you know that you won't get anything in return and that you never will.
    you can't compare financial aid to an underdeveloped country which is suffering huge losses, to stealing murder and rape - at the end of the day no matter what your reason, you'd be helping those in Haiti...you definitely wouldn't be helping the victims of these crimes. It's the abuse which makes them immoral and that has nothing to do with Haiti
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    OK right here goes...

    first off Haiti for over 50 years has sponged billions upon billions of aid and their country became engorged on that singular payment. My Godmother is Jamaican and had relatives in Haiti and heres a quote from her lol "It is one of the most god damned places I've ever been." Haiti is now at the point where it is literally like some african countries it is past the point of return and forever be, even if rebuilt it is futile because the crime rate is so astronomically high its pointless. Also like africa AIDS is rife in Haiti where 200,000 deaths is not really that much considering that is about 2 months worth of death.

    China will be a superpower numero uno one day but they are essentially dealing and limping with wounds already. The one child system is barbaric as my uncle lived temporarily in china as did my lecturer during the Moa years. If China thinks the world would adhear to the cult of personality like they do they are wrong not even Russia would especially by the means of china. Another huge key factor is that by 2015 China is expected to have 1.5 billion people which would be a disaster as they already have HUGE problems with starvation and famine in the southern and mountainous regions. China is basically a champagne bottle awaiting to burst as its problems severly outweigh their positives yes they have money but they have something like 40% unemployment and a finance dependent on exporting all the other nations need to do is embargo China and they are ****** already as their current GDP will bleed from them and embargoing china is not a dellusion especially if the next us president is a republican especially as they would be a larger threat, Russia has a tenious relationship with them as they have almost shifted ideals.

    And whoever said Japan is rich is a moron just watch the news ok because japan's problem is that they nationalised most of their own companies making a sinkhole in deficits as they do not go directly to japan
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    Seriously Rain and Deity Slayer I really want to know what parallel universe you guys are in because according to Deity Pompeii matches an earthquake in haiti. Your logic is absolutely baffling so an event that killed EVERYONE not just 2000 or 100,000 but leveled an entire city is the same no it isn't because Pompeii was technically a GENECIDE not a disaster.
    And Rain if Haiti was a powerful nation do you realise how many times hell would have to freeze over before that even glimmers
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    (Original post by Zakky)
    So because a country is 'weaker' it should be killed off? What makes a country stronger? It's mere luck you were born into a 'stronger' country as you put it. They aren't stronger. They have just developed at a faster rate due to having resources. I don't see why just because of where someone is born means you can't help them. True we shouldnt be in Iraq, but if you were a Haitian, i doubt you'd want other people to desert you.
    I for one never said anybody should be killed off. I simply said it is not our place to interfere, we are not world police. I have already asserted my opinion, that the aid donated by affluent nations, is simply a means of easing a guilty collective conscience. If Haiti and the Haitians are not strong enough to survive on their own, we raise them, only so they will fall again in the future.
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    (Original post by Chucklefiend)
    I for one never said anybody should be killed off. I simply said it is not our place to interfere, we are not world police. I have already asserted my opinion, that the aid donated by affluent nations, is simply a means of easing a guilty collective conscience. If Haiti and the Haitians are not strong enough to survive on their own, we raise them, only so they will fall again in the future.
    Maybe it is, as long as they give the aid their motivation is irrelevant. As for setting them up to fall, you may have a point, unfortunately there's little that can be done about that, we can only offer a helping hand when there's a humanitarian disaster. It's our responsibility as the wealthiest nations.
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    Your original post is ignorant because you don't even understand the context of Haiti. Historically it is an extremely abused state by the powers that are now helping it.

    See the following article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle6995750.ece

    Just as Britain has received aid in the past from the United States we should now give aid to other countries that need it.
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    It's great to know I live in a society with morally-bankrupt ********* like yourself. It's so healthy for a society to not give a damn about any one but themselves.

    Did you people saying you don't give a crap, care about 9/11? If so you're hypocritical racist tossers. Oh but they're white, this means it's a tragedy!
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    (Original post by Dyrt18ft)
    It's great to know I live in a society with morally-bankrupt ********* like yourself. It's so healthy for a society to not give a damn about any one but themselves.

    Did you people saying you don't give a crap, care about 9/11? If so you're hypocritical racist tossers. Oh but they're white, this means it's a tragedy!
    That better not be aimed at me.
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    It's not, don't worry.
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    Read this: it's not entirely their fault.
    I apologise if it's been posted before. The moral snobness in this thread just make it unbrearable to read.
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    (Original post by SteveeRoo)
    And Rain if Haiti was a powerful nation do you realise how many times hell would have to freeze over before that even glimmers
    I was just trying to explain how someone misunderstood someone elses point on this thread about how they would do the same for us - this was never my argument. We can't say whether they would recriprocate the aid because it's never happened and it never will.
    my argument is simply based on morals - people on this thread (no one in particular) are too focused on Haiti's past and how they were already living in a deprived country and therefore did not bother to help themselves. Right now, it's a bit late for that - what's done is done. It's a personal choice at the end of the day noone can force morals on others - you either have them or you don't
    i don't care about the technicalities, i'm just doing what i believe is my part since i have the money to help
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    (Original post by CjT)
    Your original post is ignorant because you don't even understand the context of Haiti. Historically it is an extremely abused state by the powers that are now helping it.

    See the following article: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/com...cle6995750.ece

    Just as Britain has received aid in the past from the United States we should now give aid to other countries that need it.
    It is in no way ignorant, I know more than most about the history of Haiti. As in my example, with the carving up of the middle east, that has directly led to terrorism, my point is we should not to interfere. Not any any context, not to 'help', or for any other reason. We are not world police.
 
 
 
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