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    "left wing fascists"
    "pesky meddling liberal elite"

    Only two quotes I have stumbled apon in the last 5 minutes but there are plenty more strewn across TSR.

    I am overwhelmed with the general ignorrance contained within these threads. Go on any BNP, English Defence League or Immigration related thread and you will find a general whirlpool of studpidity. Now as much as I disagree with those two organisations, I am not calling the stupid. Instead I turn your attention to the consistant use of the word left wing and liberal as though it was a swear word? Many of the time when questioned, these people cant even come up with an appropiate definition of the word.

    This country was built from liberal principles and the destruction of a plutocratic society in the 19th Century was spearheaded by the Whigs/Liberals. Yet these same people denounce the current "liberalist pigs" that run this country, claiming their leftist ways are ruining it? When they talk of returning to the times when our country was at its peak, do they actually know when abouts that was?

    I have also heard numerous references on the relationship between socialism and communism? Though not actually being affiliated with any political party, some of my views tend to be leaning towards left wing. I have been called a communist on these boards before. Are people not aware that Comunism was thought up in conjunction with the ideas of Hegels theory of Dialetic? Communism was meant to replace capitalism everhwere, this is what Karl Marx believed would happen. Instead, in many countries socialism, a perhaps completely different system came about.

    Communism is based on a classless society where as socialism is perhaps best described as the rich supporting the poor. And even communism itself? I am not a comunist and find the very principles it was based on hypocritical. But say I was and I posted a thread saying I LIKE COMMUNISM BECAUSE..................., the uproar would be terrible. But looking at this from a basic view, all it means is that I have different political ideologies then you. You would moan at someone for being with T-Mobile when your with Orange would you?

    Anyway, this may seem like a rant but who else has expirienced this runaway trainwreck of ignorrance and does it wind you up?
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    Agree entirely with your post but some of these right wingers will be all to happy to point out the irony of calling them stupid when it's actually ignorance not ignorrance
    I don't get why everyone's like 'oooh too lefty...too liberal' on tsr as if it's a bad thing. Erm no. Silly silly people. I think being liberal is a good thing!!
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    There's a difference between classical liberalism in the 19th century and modern liberalism, but yeah, alot of people throw the word 'liberal' round as a pejorative, which is a pretty poor way to make a point.
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    (Original post by lilymae)
    Agree entirely with your post but some of these right wingers will be all to happy to point out the irony of calling them stupid when it's actually ignorance not ignorrance
    I don't get why everyone's like 'oooh too lefty...too liberal' on tsr as if it's a bad thing. Erm no. Silly silly people. I think being liberal is a good thing!!
    haha doh! now i look stupid

    exactly, I mean as i say i prefer keep myself neutral for the time being. But some of them despise the fact far right is used as a replacement word for racist yet they stereotype their polar opposite :confused:
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    The liberals back then were hardcore free marketers who saw Ireland and India starve rather than interfere with the market. The lib-dems et al are not classical liberals and are more like socialists.
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    Liberal for your own people; everyone should be allowed to do what they like, homsexual relationships, civil partnerships etc, all fine by me.

    BUT, with very fierce immigration policy.

    Our liberal immigration policy has resulted in our society becoming less safe, less liberal for the rest of us. The talk of ID cards, anti-terror legislation and CCTV, all down to this.

    You can't have your cake AND eat it.
    If liberals want to allow everyone in to Britain, as though it's some never-ending bag of Haribo happiness that's our to give away to all, including some of the most wanted people for the Rwandan genocide, Eastern-European mass murderers, and Islamist terrorists wanted for terrorist atrocities over-seas, (these are all true examples in Britain,) and your Human Rights lawyers are so enthusiastic about them staying, then be prepared for society to bare the brunt of it.
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    Most people that 'discuss' politics tend to be idiots, and I don't believe there's a heavier mark of ignorance on one particular side, just coincidence.
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    Woo Communism! :yay:
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    (Original post by MaceyThe)
    Liberal for your own people; everyone should be allowed to do what they like, homsexual relationships, civil partnerships etc, all fine by me.

    BUT, with very fierce immigration policy.

    Our liberal immigration policy has resulted in our society becoming less safe, less liberal for the rest of us. The talk of ID cards, anti-terror legislation and CCTV, all down to this.

    You can't have your cake AND eat it.
    If you liberals want to allow everyone in to Britain...
    Labour Party and Liberal are not interchangeable phrases- I think plenty of liberals are anti-ID cards, anti open borders etc (Though I'm loath to empty a bucket of immigration-related stupidity over this thread)
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    I think you're confusing classical liberalism with the modern conception of a "liberal". The former being a brilliant political philosophy, the latter being loosely defined as "the PC crowd".
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    (Original post by Renner)
    The liberals back then were hardcore free marketers who saw Ireland and India starve rather than interfere with the market. The lib-dems et al are not classical liberals and are more like socialists.
    They're a bit more like socialists but they're not really are they?

    I like left wing Politics but I can see why some people don't, or to be more specific, I get Libertarians. People who hold a Milton Friedman type view that the markets is always the best and people should have very few restrictions put on them as citizens. Even if I myself think that a completely free market is a terrible idea, I can see why they would have that belief.

    It's the kind of people who look at the Republicans in America and think 'well there's a really swell party' that I find completely insufferable. Neo-Cons in other words. They are truly awful. Liberal left wingers like Tony Benn know where it's at.
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    I ******* hate the way people try to use 'liberal' as insult.

    Also all this liberal conspiracy ******** reminds me of the 'jewish liberal media bias' and jewish elitism conspiracy blah blah etc. etc. stuff I used to get taunted about.

    I am proud to ascribe to classical liberalism.
    contrary to popular belief that doesn't mean I like labour, In fact I despise them.
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    (Original post by Good Apollo)
    I think you're confusing classical liberalism with the modern conception of a "liberal". The former being a brilliant political philosophy, the latter being loosely defined as "the PC crowd".
    I agree.
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    (Original post by MaceyThe)
    Liberal for your own people; everyone should be allowed to do what they like, homsexual relationships, civil partnerships etc, all fine by me.

    BUT, with very fierce immigration policy.

    Our liberal immigration policy has resulted in our society becoming less safe, less liberal for the rest of us. The talk of ID cards, anti-terror legislation and CCTV, all down to this.
    You can't have your cake AND eat it.
    If you liberals want to allow everyone in to Britain, as though it's some never-ending bag of Haribo happiness that for us to give away to all, including some of the most wanted people for the Rwandan genocide, Eastern-European mass murderers, and Islamist terrorists wanted for terrorist atrocities over-seas, (these are all true examples in Britain,) and your Human Rights lawyers are so enthusiastic about them staying, then be prepared for society to bare the brunt of it.
    haha you again, encountered you a few times.

    not that i want to rubbish your points because i know you could have done just that to me, but bar the id cards perhaps, althose things you have mentioned and that I have bolded, are as a result of the BRITISH public demanding and not of immigrants.

    CCTV is also in areas with large white british populations you know and has not come with the arrival of immigration but a result of technology.

    i dont understand your cake comment

    I will have to trash this one particualr view though. Your stereotypes of these ethnic groups seems somewhat misguided. You seem to label the cultures inwhich they came from under the same brush that the examples you have given have tarnished them.

    Eastern-European serial killers? come off it, name me one eastern eurpean serial killer who has reached the heights of notoriety that Ted Bundy, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley, the Camden Ripper and co have achieved. As far as I am aware there are no serial killers of eastern european ancestry in Britain nor has there ever been. Infact I think all of your stereotypes are misguided.

    Haha here we go. having started as a promising debate, you have turned it into a tit for tat political allegance argument. My Human Rughts Lawyers? why would I have any human rights lawyers.

    if your talking about liberals, may I remind you that 1) I have already stated I have no real political allegience so stop trying to label me in a lame attempt to criminalise my views and 2) Human Rights Lawyers are not liberal. This highlights a certain ignorance in itself. lawyers do not choose their cases, rather they are assigned to them. A lawyer will argue a case even if its grossly against his own principles because that is their job. These are not "liberal" human rights lawyers, rather just human rights lawyers who happen to be assigned to the case of some immigrant who wants to stay here and is threatened with being kicked out.

    You also talk about it as if it is a fight of good vs evil. I think you get abit to carried away here. Sorry to ruin this whole crusade you got going on but i don't think you realise the importance immigrants have in a capitalist society. Go to any western capitalist country and you will see a similar amount of immigrants.

    You want the luxuries that you currently class as the norms? Well dont go knocking immigrants matey. Capitalism is constantly growing, as in all the time. In order for things to continue teh way they are then your going to need immigrants because at present they take the cheapest labour. You can moan about stolen jobs all day long just because theres a random story in a paper about an immigrant who has amde alot of money, but fact is immigrants on the whole take the **** you dont want. I doubt that you would be willing to make a career of moping floors in hotels and hospitals or making sandwhiches in British Airways no doubt atrocious catering halls.

    So please if you feel the need to comment back remember I am not left wing nor right wing okay?!
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    (Original post by MaceyThe)
    Our liberal immigration policy has resulted in our society becoming less safe, less liberal for the rest of us. The talk of ID cards, anti-terror legislation and CCTV, all down to this.
    CCTV has less to do with threats from terrorism but more to do as a form of crime prevention, albeit a draconian, orwellian form of crime prevention. ID cards would have been introduced regardless of levels of immigration. Ironically reducing crime is what the electorate wants, so yes, you cant have your cake and eat it.
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    (Original post by az1992)
    haha you again, encountered you a few times.


    (Original post by az1992)
    I will have to trash this one particualr view though. Your stereotypes of these ethnic groups seems somewhat misguided. You seem to label the cultures inwhich they came from under the same brush that the examples you have given have tarnished them.

    Eastern-European serial killers? come off it, name me one eastern eurpean serial killer who has reached the heights of notoriety that Ted Bundy, Peter Sutcliffe, Myra Hindley, the Camden Ripper and co have achieved. As far as I am aware there are no serial killers of eastern european ancestry in Britain nor has there ever been. Infact I think all of your stereotypes are misguided.
    Dozens of suspected war criminals are living in the UK with "impunity" because legal loopholes mean we cannot prosecute or deport them, anti-genocide campaigners have warned. Many of the individuals end up laiming asylum, but cannot now be returned home or extradited because of their human rights.
    But equally they cannot be made to stand trial here because of the country's laws on prosecuting suspected foreign war criminals who are not formally resident here.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-impunity.html

    Report Says UK 'A Haven For War Criminals'
    Britain is becoming a safe haven for war criminals and those funding genocide, according to a new report.
    The report claims that people guilty of funding war crimes are living in the UK.
    The Aegis Trust says that war crimes suspects who come to the UK are escaping justice because of "legal loopholes".
    It found that suspected war criminals could not be deported easily because of human rights laws.
    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...ocide_Suspects

    Worlds most wanted men living in London:
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...n-in-london.do

    And read this if you want to be sickened:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6077227.ece

    A profile of the 4 men:
    http://www.trial-ch.org/en/trial-wat...ryayo_609.html
    http://www.trial-ch.org/en/trial-wat...jinya_611.html
    http://www.trial-ch.org/en/trial-wat...ebuja_610.html

    E.g, Emmanuel Nteziryayo:


    Emmanuel Nteziryayo was born in 1963. He is the former mayor of the commune of Mudasomwa in Gikongoro province where, it appears, he exercised very extensive power. His past, before the war, is largely unknown.

    Nteziryayo is charged with initiating the killings of 85'000 people during the genocide and of having provided weapons to the Interahamwe (extremist Hutu militia).More than 30 people are reported to have given evidence against him.

    In addition to the massacres in Mudasomwa, Nteziryayo is accused of both provoking and leading one of the biggest massacres of the Rwandan genocide, that of 21 April 1994 in the Murambi school. From more than 50'000 people who had sought refuge in the classrooms, only a handful survived the attack by the Interahamwe, who were armed with firearms and machetes.


    For three years after leaving Rwanda, Nteziryayo lived in complete anonymity in an apartment in Manchester. He had asked for asylum in Great Britain under false identity for himself, his wife and their five children. His name then appeared on a list of suspects published by the Rwandan government in April 2006.
    All living freely in Britain, thanks to human rights law. Disgraceful:banghead:

    4 men wanted for their part in the Rwandan genocide walked free not to stand trial, a cruel blow for the traumatised relatives of the victims, and for all those from the Crown Prosecution Service, British diplomats at the embassy in Rwanda and Rwandan officials themselves who, over the past three years, invested an immense amount of time, energy, money and commitment to get Rwandan justice in line with British expectations for a fair trial for the four.

    Survivors are sickened by the outcome. In 1994, Drocelle Kantetere’s parents and six siblings were massacred. She had long accused one of the four men, Charles Munyaneza, 50, a former Rwandan government official, of orchestrating their deaths and the murder of thousands of other civilians. Unknown to her, Munyaneza came to Britain in 1999, using a false name. In 2002 the Home Office approved his refugee status and granted him unlimited leave to stay.

    In 2006 he was found by The Sunday Times, in Bedford, working as a cleaner. Another of the four to be freed last week, a former Rwandan mayor Emmanuel Nteziryayo, 55, also found by The Sunday Times, has been accused in Rwanda of complicity in the murder of more than 87,000 people.
    I've read in to this case a lot. To put it simply, these guys were guilty as sin. They were identified by survivors, and a couple of British police spent 2 years building up sufficient evidence that would have seen them be found guilty in a British court.

    Going out for a run so can't comment on the other stuff, but that's enough to get going with
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    Someone explain to me the difference between liberalism and libertarianism ? There is a difference, right ?
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    (Original post by MaceyThe)





    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...-impunity.html


    http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...ocide_Suspects

    Worlds most wanted men living in London:
    http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standa...n-in-london.do

    And read this if you want to be sickened:
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6077227.ece

    A profile of the 4 men:
    http://www.trial-ch.org/en/trial-wat...ryayo_609.html
    http://www.trial-ch.org/en/trial-wat...jinya_611.html
    http://www.trial-ch.org/en/trial-wat...ebuja_610.html

    E.g, Emmanuel Nteziryayo:


    All living freely in Britain, thanks to human rights law. Disgraceful:banghead:



    I've read in to this case a lot. To put it simply, these guys were guilty as sin. They were identified by survivors, and a couple of British police spent 2 years building up sufficient evidence that would have seen them be found guilty in a British court.

    Going out for a run so can't comment on the other stuff, but that's enough to get going with
    haha duly noted i think i havegot the point. But you still havent tackled my point though? you said it as though these war criminals that number less then 20 reprresent a population of 80,000 of their culture living in london

    I am going to leave it for tonight but as much as our views differ, i have enjoyed "discussing" these things with you.
 
 
 
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