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We are NOT all equal! watch

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    that's very good dear aren't you a clever boy now come downstairs for your dinner is ready
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    (Original post by james.h)
    Define 'equal'. :p:

    Equality in station? Equality in social or academic talent? Equality in sensory perception, in happiness, in physical or mental states?

    Although humanity in general has been trying for ages to define measurement systems for every property under the sun (and many more besides), everything is still essentially analogue for the purposes of your argument. You cannot say things are 'equal' without either biasing your views via personal perspective, or providing the ultimate measurement scale for equality against which you may prove undeniably that there exists one person in the world whose level of 'equality' does not match that of another. However, I'd say that the latter option is an impossibility.

    Personally, I'd say that everyone (and, if such terminology is more familiar to you, everything) is equal, regardless of age, gender, species, race, class, size, and whatever else could possibly be discriminated against - that is to say, any attribute. I stick to it. That's my belief, and as such it is a part of my world. From my perspective, then, the issue of egalitarianism is a solved problem, and I can get on with my life.

    Make what you will of this. I'm bored. :flybye:
    Good point.:yes:
    One can be poor, but he has got a warm family; one is borned to be pretty, but wihout any talent. God treat us equally in this way.
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    (Original post by Deadly Lightshade)
    This isn't going to be one of your joke threads is it?

    Boy who cried wolf and all that.
    The wolf wins :cool:
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    (Original post by + polarity -)
    So you want us to start throwing poo?

    Way ahead of you bro.
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    Whilst we are not equal from biological points of view, I still believe fervently in treating everyone from the same baseline for the purposes of creating and upholding society and it's laws. The moment you start saying "some people are better than others", you have problems. Suddenly, some of the population gets redefined as second-class citizens in terms of their practical access to resources and information, because controls are imposed upon them by the elite who were fortunate enough to be born into their stations.

    In my honest opinion, we are equal because it is the morally right thing to think. Any other consideration is incompatible with societal progress.
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    I agree and disagree with OP.

    I think our potential as human beings are equal. We have the potential to become great, regardless of how you define great. Its all built on perception, of ouselves and each other.

    American History is filled with ordinary men achieving extraordinary things. Abraham Lincoln, Kennedy, Martin Luther King etc. Even British history has shown this through some merit, though I agree the aristocratic traditions of Britain dominate it's past. But even look at Barack Obama. He didnt have the riches of Bush or many other presidents, in fact he was very poor. Yet he became the president of the US (even though his relative success can be debated).

    Tbh, I disagree that inequality with humans is a product of nature, because of the unlimited potentia I belive personally, we all have. Elitism was created and has remained a tradition, but at the end of the day who even gives a **** ? I certainly couldnt care less whether someone went to Eton, Oxbridge and then in a position of power. I'd rather earn that through hard work, rather than my daddy's name.
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    Completely and utterly ignoring the influence of society. How ignorant can you be?

    Yes everyone is where they are because of their biology, and there are no processes in between.
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    (Original post by O-Ren)
    Don't really understand what's going on here. No people are not all equal, some people are more intelligent/more courageous/more selfless/more hard working than others. Clearly these people are superior.

    However, we are not born into equal situations. Saying that the reason working class people are less likely to become politicians than middle class people is down to their inherent genetic inferiority is batsht crazy. There may well be a small genetic difference, but most of the difference in success is due to middle class people having an easier ride. No rational person could deny that.
    So the hard working ones or natural geniuses are Superior? Excellent.
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    (Original post by Chucklefiend)
    'All men are born equal' - Not only thinly veiled sexism, but a fundamentally flawed fallacy. A fallacy which built the modern developed world.

    Everybody knows that this is a lie, an ideological human creation, that does not even exist in our minds. You meet people and you subconsciously, or perhaps consciously for some, judge them and subsequently place them in the appropriate strata of our shared hierarchy. We label them according to race, class, intelligence, attractiveness etc. So we may put them in their place.

    We perpectuate this pretense of equality only to satisfy our self declared moral superiority over our animal counterparts. Morality is a luxury that is soon forgotten in times of desperation. We are nothing but pretentious beasts, denying our very nature, in the interest of our self importance.

    We can now all vote, regardless of all labels. The vote transcends race, breed, creed, intellect, age, gender and class. Those we vote for however, remain an elite society, the 'political class'. They tell us we are all equal, while they wallow in the miasma our their own self importance.

    How many descendants of immigrant dinner ladies have trodden the floors of the houses of parliament, in a context other than that of the wandering tourist or humble cleaner, I wonder. If we are all equal, why do the same aristocratic families dominate our leadership? David Cameron is descended from royalty and he will soon rule great Britain, just as his ancestors did before him.

    The laws of nature shaped us and they did not make us equal. Nature has no agenda, no intention and no morality. The rules are simple, the strong survive while the weak die. Survival requires no selflessness and no equality, thus no such selflessness or equality exists. We are animals and it's time we stopped denying our nature.
    I think you're taking 'equal' too literally, it is in pronounced terms of equal human utility and intrinsic worth. I don't think anyone posits that we're all identical, rather than such differences warrant no prejudiced behaviour.

    And you're last paragraph is touching on fallacy, read:

    http://libcom.org/library/mutual-aid-peter-kropotkin

    Also i don't see how political systems, are relevant to such a discussion, the occurrences you outlined are integral to the said systems, not to the nature of human beings.
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    (Original post by Chucklefiend)
    You meet people and you subconsciously, or perhaps consciously for some, judge them
    There is the inescapable flaw of your entire position. Its all in the mind. You may think you are superior or inferior based on arbitrary markers of 'success' or whatever but at the end of the day your just another flawed primate who thinks his opinion matters.


    Morality is a luxury that is soon forgotten in times of desperation.
    A sweeping generalization which unfortunately for you is false.


    Those we vote for however, remain an elite society, the 'political class'.
    Except for those politicians who are local/didn't study politics at university and got voted in regardless of any 'political class' candidates.

    But I like the whole Che Guevara/Anarchist slant. Fight the power...to have a say on who runs the country?


    The laws of nature shaped us and they did not make us equal. Nature has no agenda, no intention and no morality. The rules are simple, the strong survive while the weak die. Survival requires no selflessness and no equality, thus no such selflessness or equality exists. We are animals and it's time we stopped denying our nature.
    Actually you'll find that the rise of human civilization has allot to do with our ability to socialize, work together, compromise, suspend pursuit for our own immediate needs to support the needs of the group as a whole. If by stop denying our nature you mean we should just accept that conforming is part of what we are and we should reject the need to make whiney emo rants virging on racism and decrying anything remotely positive about humanity then I agree.

    As a start I am denying your premises, poorly reasoned as they are.

    We've tried the whole few-better-than-the-rest line of thought and it hasn't really done much for social cohesion in the end. Whether you think someone or a group of people are superior or inferior to you is unimportant. What is important is that a healthy society ensures as fair a playing ground as possible for everyone to reach their potential, to the benefit of society as a whole.

    But just so you know we really are all equal where it counts, I.E. the shared experience of sapience. And that's all I need to treat another human being as human. You want to be a small little bigot then fine, but don't come crying to TSR just because getting labelled accordingly stings what little conscience you have.
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    What do you suppose would be a suitable alternative to our current society?

    Also, I believe the quote relates more to the equality of law, rather than the equality of nature.
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    "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others."
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    Define equal.

    Equal in ability, certainly not.

    Equal in worth, perhaps.
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    (Original post by Advanced Subsidiary)
    So the hard working ones or natural geniuses are Superior? Excellent.
    You think people who work hard at the job they do to keep society going are not superior to people who sit on their arse watching tv all day, only leaving the house to cash their benefits check or go to the pub?
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    (Original post by O-Ren)
    You think people who work hard at the job they do to keep society going are not superior to people who sit on their arse watching tv all day, only leaving the house to cash their benefits check or go to the pub?
    No they're not superior as human beings. They're more effecient to society. That is all. You can't say that a person is superior to another just because of that.
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    (Original post by Advanced Subsidiary)
    No they're not superior as human beings. They're more effecient to society. That is all. You can't say that a person is superior to another just because of that.
    Superiority is subjective, I can judge it how I like. How exactly do you judge superiority then?
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    (Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
    ... but at the end of the day your just another flawed primate who thinks his opinion matters..
    As are you my friend.


    (Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
    ... A sweeping generalization which unfortunately for you is false..
    Evidence? There are countless examples of morality going out of the window in the context where one's survival is placed in peril eg http://timesonline.typepad.com/times...ignonette.html




    (Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
    ... Except for those politicians who are local/didn't study politics at university and got voted in regardless of any 'political class' candidates..
    Name a single MP in a position of reasonable power who does not have a degree. Anybody can become an independent MP upon meeting eminently achievable criteria, only a few gain a position of power or leadership. - You do not seem to understand the priciples of serious debate, if you are going to question the validity of an assertion or an argument, I believe it's conventional to provide some kind of evidence.

    (Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
    ... Actually you'll find that the rise of human civilization has allot to do with our ability to socialize, work together, compromise, suspend pursuit for our own immediate needs to support the needs of the group as a whole. If by stop denying our nature you mean we should just accept that conforming is part of what we are and we should reject the need to make whiney emo rants verging on racism and decrying anything remotely positive about humanity then I agree..
    Indeed, humans display apparent altruistic behaviour which has led cooperation and team work etc, which in turn, played a substantial role in development of civilisation. However, If you knew much about the theory of evolution, you would know that the supposed altruistic behaviour seen in humans, is the product of the the primal instict of survival. i.e. an individual is more likely to survive and thrive in a socially developed group by, in some circumstances, acting in a altruistic manner. In another context, altruism is displayed via parental investment, whereby a parent makes large sacrifices to their own well being in order to maximise the chance of survival of there offspring. This is observed in many species not just humans, and is again intrinsically linked to the perpectuation of the replication of genes. I do not deny that these elements of human nature played a role in human civilisation, I merely assert that they are rooted in selfishness and that therefore, if they become a barrier to an individual's survival, they are soon dropped, as we revert to the more primitive id section of our psyche.

    (Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
    ... We've tried the whole few-better-than-the-rest line of thought and it hasn't really done much for social cohesion in the end. Whether you think someone or a group of people are superior or inferior to you is unimportant. What is important is that a healthy society ensures as fair a playing ground as possible for everyone to reach their potential, to the benefit of society as a whole..
    But it doesn't, it's a lie. that was my point. Human society is a direct result of our biology. Our society reflects us as a species, biology is selfish and therefore our society is selfish. Moreover, humans are inherantly self important. Humans used to believe that the earth was the centre of the solar system and sun revolved around us. Most prominent religions hold the belief that God shaped mankind in his own image. These are examples of humanity's severe superiority complex, which is where this false belief that we are some how better than our animal counterparts stems from. We are animals, morality and altruism are survival mechanisms, when they cease to serve this function, they are cast assunder.

    (Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
    ... But just so you know we really are all equal where it counts, I.E. the shared experience of sapience. And that's all I need to treat another human being as human. You want to be a small little bigot then fine, but don't come crying to TSR just because getting labelled accordingly stings what little conscience you have.
    Let's not lower the tone by throwing personal insults around. I usually see these as an indicator, that all reasonable debate has come to an end. Therefore, if more are to follow, please do us both a favour and restrain yourself.
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    tl;dr.

    Who cares what you think?

    Go have a cupcake.
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    (Original post by izzys)
    Good point.:yes:
    One can be poor, but he has got a warm family; one is borned to be pretty, but wihout any talent. God treat us equally in this way.
    Speak for yourself...


    Oh and of course we aren't all equal and if we didn't judge we'd be very confused! :woo:
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    My dinner ladies weren't immigrants, therefore I cannot understand your post.
 
 
 
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