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Islam not to blame - NAMP watch

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    (Original post by Bobscob)
    Surely blaming Islam/ society is the wrong way to look at this, it is the bombers fault themselves, no? so to prevent this we should simply try and target these people at the root, not target Islam etc doing that just gives those who do use the cover of Islam to defend their atrocities more ammunition.
    What is the root of the problem then?
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    No he didn't you idiot.

    Does Islam forbid the killing of children and women at anytime? Yes

    Does it forbid the killing of non-combatant men at any time? Yes

    Does it forbid destruction to private property in times of war? Yes

    Does it forbid suicide? Yes

    Are terrorists muslims? Well you seem intelligent enough to figure it all out. An interesting fact: according to the CIA ( a National Geographic channel programme concerning 9/11 says), one of the "Muslim" terrorists watched a porn movie (extremely frowned upon) and called a prostitute (forbidden) before he went and helped kill thousands of people in the World Trade Centre- some of them Muslim.
    Yes, he did.

    Do you not think it is paedophilic to marry a 9 year old child?
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    As I said in the other thread about this; I think that if you're a violent extremist you would be whether the religion existed or not. I think that the religion is a (poor) justification for their actions rather than the cause. As such I don't feel there is any need for all this Islamophobia, at least not in terms of anti-terrorism laws.

    A greater concern is the existence of groups like NAMP. Why do they have to identify themselves as Muslim police officers? What has their religion got to do with their job in police work? The government and all of its limbs should be ran as secular organisations imo and so there should be no need for such organisations.
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    NAMP or the "National Association of Muslim Police" argue that ministers were wrong to blame Islam for being the “driver” behind recent terrorist attacks. And curiously that far-right extremists were a more dangerous threat to national security.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...r-attacks.html

    http://www.namp-uk.com/home.html


    Your thoughts, try to keep it on-topic.
    The far right extremists tend to be religious. You don't get any Christians or Jews blowing themselves up.

    Also most other country's realise this, such as Turkey who have banned any extreme Muslims coming into the country and that is an Islamic state.
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    i live in karachi, pakistan and to b honest i was stunned to c who theses so called islamic terrorist are actually! they are just a group of deviated weak faith muslims who are being controlled by different rich and powerful people to achieve their selfish desires!
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    No he didn't you idiot.

    Does Islam forbid the killing of children and women at anytime? Yes

    Does it forbid the killing of non-combatant men at any time? Yes

    Does it forbid destruction to private property in times of war? Yes

    Does it forbid suicide? Yes

    Are terrorists muslims? Well you seem intelligent enough to figure it all out. An interesting fact: according to the CIA ( a National Geographic channel programme concerning 9/11 says), one of the "Muslim" terrorists watched a porn movie (extremely frowned upon) and called a prostitute (forbidden) before he went and helped kill thousands of people in the World Trade Centre- some of them Muslim.
    Could you please post your response to this...

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    Could you please post your response to this...

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm
    If Islam was so simply as 'yes' and 'no' then why would people need fatwas and all the various interpretations made by scholars?
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    Yes, he did.

    Do you not think it is paedophilic to marry a 9 year old child?
    Crafty how you missed out the responding to the rest of my post. You're an idiot. It was the norm for men to be married to young wives at the time and the prophet's wife had died and he married Aisha at a friend's recommendation. She was allowed to stay at her parent's house for several years and only lost her virginity after reaching reaching puberty and in her late teens.

    After the prophet Muhammad died, she did her best to spread his message and honour his name. If she hated him, she would've denounced him. And I have no idea where the **** you got the idea that he had killed her family the same night he had sex with her, another indication of your stupidity.
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    ..It demands that people submit to God and then spread the religion to please Allah...
    WOW, talk about no idea what your talking about.
    Take a look at this article, maybe it will enlighten you... :rolleyes:
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Spoiler:
    Show

    Tolerance in Islam

    The dealings of the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, with other religions can best be described in the verse of the Quran:

    “To you be your religion, to me be mine.” [Al Qur'an 109:6]

    The Arabian Peninsula during the time of the Prophet was a region in which various faiths were present. There were Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, polytheists, and others not affiliated with any religion. When one looks into the life of the Prophet, one may draw on many examples to portray the high level of tolerance shown to people of other faiths, as is described by God Almighty Himself:

    'O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted with all things.' [Al Qur'an 49:13]

    In order to understand and judge this tolerance, one must look into the period in which Islam was a formal state, with the specific laws laid down by the Prophet in accordance with the tenets of religion. Even though one can observe many examples of tolerance shown by the Prophet in the thirteen years of his stay in Mecca, one may mistakenly think that it was only due to him seeking to raise the profile of the Muslims and their social status. For this reason, the discussion will be limited to the period which commenced with the migration of the Prophet to Medina, and specifically once the constitution was set.

    The Saheefah

    The best example of the tolerance shown by the Prophet to other religions may be the constitution itself, called the ‘Saheefah’ by early historians.When the Prophet migrated to Medina, his role as a mere religious leader ended; he was now the political leader of a state, governed by the precepts of Islam, which demanded that clear laws of governance be laid out to ensure harmony and stability in a society which once had been distraught by decades of war, one which must ensure the peaceful coexistence of Muslims, Jews, Christians and polytheists. Due to this, the Prophet laid down a ‘constitution’ which detailed the responsibilities of all parties which resided in Medina, their obligations towards each other, and certain restrictions which were placed on each. All parties were to obey what was mentioned therein, and any breach of its articles was regarded as an act of treachery.

    One Nation

    The first article of the constitution was that all the inhabitants of Medina, the Muslims as well as those who had entered the pact from the Jews, Christian, and polytheists , were “one nation to the exclusion of all others.” All were considered members and citizens of Medina society regardless of religion, race, or ancestry. People of other faiths were protected from harm as much as the Muslims, as is stated in another article, “To the Jews who follow us belong help and equity. He shall not be harmed nor his enemies be aided.” Previously, each tribe had their alliances and enemies within and without Medina. The Prophet gathered these different tribes under one system of governance which upheld pacts of alliances previously in existence between those individual tribes. All tribes had to act as a whole with disregard to individual alliances. Any attack on another religion or tribe was considered an attack on the state and upon the Muslims as well.

    The lives of the practitioners of other religions in Muslim society was also given protective status. The Prophet (pbuh) said:

    “Whoever kills a person who has a truce with the Muslims will never smell the fragrance of Paradise.” (Sahih Muslim)

    Since the upper hand was with the Muslims, the Prophet (pbuh) strictly warned against any maltreatment of people of other faiths. He said:

    “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)

    To Each Their Own Religion

    In another article, it states, “the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs.” In this, it is clear that anything other than tolerance would not be tolerated, and that, although all were members of a society, each had their separate religion which could not be violated. Each was allowed to practice their beliefs freely without any hindrances, and no acts of provocation would be tolerated.

    There are many other articles of this constitution which may be discussed, but emphasis will be placed on an article which states, “If any dispute or controversy likely to cause trouble should arise, it must be referred to God and His Messenger.” This clause maintained that all inhabitants of the state must recognize a higher level of authority, and in those matters which involved various tribes and religions, justice could not be meted out by individual leaders; rather it must be adjudicated by the leader of the state himself or his designated representatives. It was allowed, however, for individual tribes who were not Muslims, to refer to their own religious scriptures and their learned men in regards to their own personal affairs. They could though, if they opted, ask the Prophet to judge between them in their matters. God says in the Quran:

    “…If they do come to you, either judge between them or decline to interfere...” [Al Quran 5:42]

    Here we see that the Prophet (pbuh) allowed each religion to judge in their own matters according to their own scriptures, as long as it did not stand in opposition to articles of the constitution, a pact which took into account the greater benefit of the peaceful co-existence of society.

    There are many other examples during the lifetime of the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, in addition to the Saheefah that practically portray the tolerance Islam shows for other peoples and religions.

    Freedom of Religious Assembly and Religious Autonomy

    Given consent by the constitution, the Jews had the complete freedom to practice their religion. The Jews in Medina at the time of the Prophet had their own school of learning, named Bait-ul-Midras, where they would recite the Torah, worship and educate themselves.

    The Prophet (pbuh) emphasised in many letters (written by those close to him) to his emissaries that religious institutions should not be harmed. Here in a letter addressed to his emissary to the religious leaders of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai who has sought the protection of the Muslims:

    “This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are declared to be protected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

    As one can see, this Charter consisted of several clauses covering all important aspects of human rights, including such topics as the protection of minorities living under Islamic rule, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.

    On another occasion, the Prophet (pbuh) received a delegation of sixty Christians from the region of Najran, then a part of Yemen, at his mosque. When the time for their prayer came, they faced the direction of east and prayed. The Prophet (pbuh) ordered that they be left in their state and not harmed.

    Politics

    During the life of the Prophet (pbuh), he fully co-operated with people of other faiths in the political arena and selected a non-Muslim, Amr-ibn Umaiyah-ad-Damri, as an ambassador to be sent to Negus, the King of Ethiopia. As today in Article 51 of the UN Charter and in exceptional circumstances Muslims were permitted to defence from attack by the Qur'an, though with a clear criterion of restraint, justice, chivalry and strict warning against trangression. The verse below demonstrates the invioable right and importance of protecting and respecting the Holy sanctury's of all people.

    Permission to fight is given to those who are fighting them, because they have been wronged, and surely, Allah is Able to give them victory. Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." - For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of God is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down and destroyed. Verily, Allah will help those who help His Cause. Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty. [Al Qur'an 22:40]


    These are only some of the examples of the Prophet’s tolerance of other faiths. Islam recognizes that there are a plurality of religions on this earth, and gives the right to individuals to choose the path which they believe to be true. Religion is not to be, and was never, forced upon an individual against their own will, and these examples from the life of the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, are an epitome of the verse of the Quran which promotes religious tolerance and sets the guideline for the Muslims’ interaction with people of other faiths. God says:

    “…There is no compulsion in religion…” [Al Qur'an 2:256]

    We pray that people of all faiths and those of no faith can come together and join hands to seek peace, harmony and common cause. Ameen.

    source: http://www.wliconline.org/

    .The bit in bold especially!
    .
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    (Original post by HassanBHS)
    WOW, talk about no idea what your talking about.
    Take a look at this article, maybe it will enlighten you... :rolleyes:
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Spoiler:
    Show

    Tolerance in Islam

    The dealings of the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, with other religions can best be described in the verse of the Quran:

    “To you be your religion, to me be mine.” [Al Qur'an 109:6]

    The Arabian Peninsula during the time of the Prophet was a region in which various faiths were present. There were Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians, polytheists, and others not affiliated with any religion. When one looks into the life of the Prophet, one may draw on many examples to portray the high level of tolerance shown to people of other faiths, as is described by God Almighty Himself:

    'O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted with all things.' [Al Qur'an 49:13]

    In order to understand and judge this tolerance, one must look into the period in which Islam was a formal state, with the specific laws laid down by the Prophet in accordance with the tenets of religion. Even though one can observe many examples of tolerance shown by the Prophet in the thirteen years of his stay in Mecca, one may mistakenly think that it was only due to him seeking to raise the profile of the Muslims and their social status. For this reason, the discussion will be limited to the period which commenced with the migration of the Prophet to Medina, and specifically once the constitution was set.

    The Saheefah

    The best example of the tolerance shown by the Prophet to other religions may be the constitution itself, called the ‘Saheefah’ by early historians.When the Prophet migrated to Medina, his role as a mere religious leader ended; he was now the political leader of a state, governed by the precepts of Islam, which demanded that clear laws of governance be laid out to ensure harmony and stability in a society which once had been distraught by decades of war, one which must ensure the peaceful coexistence of Muslims, Jews, Christians and polytheists. Due to this, the Prophet laid down a ‘constitution’ which detailed the responsibilities of all parties which resided in Medina, their obligations towards each other, and certain restrictions which were placed on each. All parties were to obey what was mentioned therein, and any breach of its articles was regarded as an act of treachery.

    One Nation

    The first article of the constitution was that all the inhabitants of Medina, the Muslims as well as those who had entered the pact from the Jews, Christian, and polytheists , were “one nation to the exclusion of all others.” All were considered members and citizens of Medina society regardless of religion, race, or ancestry. People of other faiths were protected from harm as much as the Muslims, as is stated in another article, “To the Jews who follow us belong help and equity. He shall not be harmed nor his enemies be aided.” Previously, each tribe had their alliances and enemies within and without Medina. The Prophet gathered these different tribes under one system of governance which upheld pacts of alliances previously in existence between those individual tribes. All tribes had to act as a whole with disregard to individual alliances. Any attack on another religion or tribe was considered an attack on the state and upon the Muslims as well.

    The lives of the practitioners of other religions in Muslim society was also given protective status. The Prophet (pbuh) said:

    “Whoever kills a person who has a truce with the Muslims will never smell the fragrance of Paradise.” (Sahih Muslim)

    Since the upper hand was with the Muslims, the Prophet (pbuh) strictly warned against any maltreatment of people of other faiths. He said:

    “Beware! Whoever is cruel and hard on a non-Muslim minority, or curtails their rights, or burdens them with more than they can bear, or takes anything from them against their free will; I (Prophet Muhammad) will complain against the person on the Day of Judgment.” (Abu Dawud)

    To Each Their Own Religion

    In another article, it states, “the Jews have their religion and the Muslims have theirs.” In this, it is clear that anything other than tolerance would not be tolerated, and that, although all were members of a society, each had their separate religion which could not be violated. Each was allowed to practice their beliefs freely without any hindrances, and no acts of provocation would be tolerated.

    There are many other articles of this constitution which may be discussed, but emphasis will be placed on an article which states, “If any dispute or controversy likely to cause trouble should arise, it must be referred to God and His Messenger.” This clause maintained that all inhabitants of the state must recognize a higher level of authority, and in those matters which involved various tribes and religions, justice could not be meted out by individual leaders; rather it must be adjudicated by the leader of the state himself or his designated representatives. It was allowed, however, for individual tribes who were not Muslims, to refer to their own religious scriptures and their learned men in regards to their own personal affairs. They could though, if they opted, ask the Prophet to judge between them in their matters. God says in the Quran:

    “…If they do come to you, either judge between them or decline to interfere...” [Al Quran 5:42]

    Here we see that the Prophet (pbuh) allowed each religion to judge in their own matters according to their own scriptures, as long as it did not stand in opposition to articles of the constitution, a pact which took into account the greater benefit of the peaceful co-existence of society.

    There are many other examples during the lifetime of the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, in addition to the Saheefah that practically portray the tolerance Islam shows for other peoples and religions.

    Freedom of Religious Assembly and Religious Autonomy

    Given consent by the constitution, the Jews had the complete freedom to practice their religion. The Jews in Medina at the time of the Prophet had their own school of learning, named Bait-ul-Midras, where they would recite the Torah, worship and educate themselves.

    The Prophet (pbuh) emphasised in many letters (written by those close to him) to his emissaries that religious institutions should not be harmed. Here in a letter addressed to his emissary to the religious leaders of Saint Catherine in Mount Sinai who has sought the protection of the Muslims:

    “This is a message from Muhammad ibn Abdullah, as a covenant to those who adopt Christianity, near and far, we are with them. Verily I, the servants, the helpers, and my followers defend them, because Christians are my citizens; and by God! I hold out against anything that displeases them. No compulsion is to be on them. Neither are their judges to be removed from their jobs nor their monks from their monasteries. No one is to destroy a house of their religion, to damage it, or to carry anything from it to the Muslims’ houses. Should anyone take any of these, he would spoil God’s covenant and disobey His Prophet. Verily, they are my allies and have my secure charter against all that they hate. No one is to force them to travel or to oblige them to fight. The Muslims are to fight for them. If a female Christian is married to a Muslim, it is not to take place without her approval. She is not to be prevented from visiting her church to pray. Their churches are declared to be protected. They are neither to be prevented from repairing them nor the sacredness of their covenants. No one of the nation (Muslims) is to disobey the covenant till the Last Day (end of the world).”

    As one can see, this Charter consisted of several clauses covering all important aspects of human rights, including such topics as the protection of minorities living under Islamic rule, freedom of worship and movement, freedom to appoint their own judges and to own and maintain their property, exemption from military service, and the right to protection in war.

    On another occasion, the Prophet (pbuh) received a delegation of sixty Christians from the region of Najran, then a part of Yemen, at his mosque. When the time for their prayer came, they faced the direction of east and prayed. The Prophet (pbuh) ordered that they be left in their state and not harmed.

    Politics

    During the life of the Prophet (pbuh), he fully co-operated with people of other faiths in the political arena and selected a non-Muslim, Amr-ibn Umaiyah-ad-Damri, as an ambassador to be sent to Negus, the King of Ethiopia. As today in Article 51 of the UN Charter and in exceptional circumstances Muslims were permitted to defence from attack by the Qur'an, though with a clear criterion of restraint, justice, chivalry and strict warning against trangression. The verse below demonstrates the invioable right and importance of protecting and respecting the Holy sanctury's of all people.

    Permission to fight is given to those who are fighting them, because they have been wronged, and surely, Allah is Able to give them victory. Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah." - For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, wherein the Name of God is mentioned much would surely have been pulled down and destroyed. Verily, Allah will help those who help His Cause. Truly, Allah is All-Strong, All-Mighty. [Al Qur'an 22:40]


    These are only some of the examples of the Prophet’s tolerance of other faiths. Islam recognizes that there are a plurality of religions on this earth, and gives the right to individuals to choose the path which they believe to be true. Religion is not to be, and was never, forced upon an individual against their own will, and these examples from the life of the Prophet, may the mercy and blessings of God be upon him, are an epitome of the verse of the Quran which promotes religious tolerance and sets the guideline for the Muslims’ interaction with people of other faiths. God says:

    “…There is no compulsion in religion…” [Al Qur'an 2:256]

    We pray that people of all faiths and those of no faith can come together and join hands to seek peace, harmony and common cause. Ameen.

    source: http://www.wliconline.org/

    .The bit in bold especially!
    .
    Islam is about submitting to God, is it not?
    Islam requests that you spread the 'good news', does it not?
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    Islam is about submitting to God, is it not?
    Islam requests that you spread the 'good news', does it not?
    According to the Quran submitting to God does not involve imposing your views onto others as this would mean that one is no longer submitting to God and hence is no longer a muslim at that moment in time. The following verse is self explanatory:

    [2:256] There is no compulsion in the system/religion (al-deen); the proper way has been made clear from the wrong way. Whoever rejects the transgressors, and acknowledges God, has grasped the firm branch that will never break. God is Hearer, Knower.

    "Spreading the good news" does not imply forcing one's belief's onto others. The following verse instructs muslims on how to invite others to the system of islam:

    [16:125] Invite to the path of your Lord with wisdom and good advice, and argue with them in the best possible manner. Your Lord is fully aware of who is misguided from His path, and He is fully aware of the guided ones.

    To clarify my point further I will quote from the footnote of verse 2:256 written by Edip Yuksel in "Quran: A Reformist Translation":

    "Though the Quran denounces imposition of religion, and promotes freedom of religion and expression of thought, the followers of hadith and sunna created sharia laws primarily for the justification of oppressive and dictatorial regimes of the Umayyad and Abbasid caliphs. The Quran rejects the imposition of a religion over another and promotes the Islamic system that can be summarized, in modern terms, as federal secularism (5:43-48). Thus, the city-state of Yathrib led by Muhammad, who did not accept any other authority besides the Quran (6:114), established a successful example of a federal secular system by dividing the territory into independent legal jurisdictions to accommodate the diverse religious, social, and political preferences of its communities. The relations between those who accepted the Quran as their jurisdiction and those who followed other laws were determined according to a constitution drafted and signed by all parties. "
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    ...
    I think Katana has done a good job MA at explaining the point i was about to make..^^
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    So it is the mythical far-right "extremists" that are the problem, then? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    Could you please post your response to this...

    http://www.faithfreedom.org/challenge.htm
    Oh, it's been a long time since I visited "faithfreedom". However, the challenge of Ali Sina has been responded to but he has never accepted a public debate.
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    (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
    Islam is about submitting to God, is it not?
    Islam requests that you spread the 'good news', does it not?
    What issues do you have with these?

    As Muslims we are expected to submit to Allaah 'azza wa jal since we believe He 'azza wa jal created all that we are aware and unaware of, and He 'azza wa jal told us our purpose in life.

    Giving da'wah to both Muslims and non-Muslims is an aspect of our submission to Allaah 'azza wa jal. Surely, Muslims have the right to call to what we believe to be the truth given that you as an Atheist try your utmost here on TSR to challenge and perhaps change the views of non-Atheists.
 
 
 
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