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'I'll die here', said tortured boy watch

  • View Poll Results: What sentence do you think the attackers should face?
    Capital Punishment
    89
    23.54%
    Life Imprisonment
    97
    25.66%
    A jail term with psychiatric help - released at some point when theyre 'deemed safe'
    129
    34.13%
    Psychiatric Hospital until 'deemed safe'
    45
    11.90%
    Put back into foster care with more qualified parents and on-hand psychiatric help
    14
    3.70%
    Other... (Speicify in thread)
    4
    1.06%

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    (Original post by Trigger)
    Oh for goodness sake shut your trap for a second and read what i am saying. Or better yet put your copy of The Sun or The Mail down and stop being so damn reactionary and sensationalist.
    I did read what you're saying.
    You're blaming what they did on their circumstances. You're saying its not fair to punish them, pointing out that they had poor parents etc.

    But it isn't fair that they are given these opportunities. I mean, it isn't my fault that they did this, but I still get to pay for their rehab.

    Also, I don't read either of those newspapers, I simply cited what has happened in the Bulger case, said it was wrong and am suggesting that it is what will likely happen with this case.

    If you think that's 'reactionary and sensationalist' then fine.
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    (Original post by Inzamam99)
    Sorry If I offended but I do understand:

    Those kids exist: Waste of taxpayers money, potential danger to society, certainly have the potential to ill and torture more people. They've been messed up by their parents from a young age and imo they're unlikely to change.

    Those kids are shot: No danger to society, no waste of taxpayers money, justice for the tortured kids.

    Sometimes it's not the law that's important it's JUSTICE.
    If you had any understanding of the complex psychological factors surrounding this then you'd realise that the behaviour can be changed. People do reform, and on many times have.

    Japan has done it the best, they have massive early release rates, but little re-offending. If you have some spare time, i'd recommend this book which demonstrates that retribution should be favoured above retribution.

    Is it right to give them the death penalty for something that's beyond their control if reform is possible?

    Justice? You mean revenge? Should the state sponsor revenge?
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    (Original post by Alexio)
    I did read what you're saying.
    You're blaming what they did on their circumstances. You're saying its not fair to punish them, pointing out that they had poor parents etc.

    But it isn't fair that they are given these opportunities. I mean, it isn't my fault that they did this, but I still get to pay for their rehab.

    Also, I don't read either of those newspapers, I simply cited what has happened in the Bulger case, said it was wrong and am suggesting that it is what will likely happen with this case.

    If you think that's 'reactionary and sensationalist' then fine.
    I haven't even said they shouldn't be punished. I am all for them being punished but not to the extent that we should murder them! What's wrong with you?
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    (Original post by Bslforever)
    Its disgusting, but its hardly their fault. Who grows up in a home like theirs and comes out normal?

    Now im not saying that this absolves them and that we should spend thousands of pounds trying to rehabilitate these kids and others like them, but i am saying that throwing around hefty punishments like the death penalty will not solve any problems. With or without the death penalty, kids who are screwed up enough to force two brothers to have sex with each other while torturing them in such a brutal manner would have done so with our without the death penalty. Do you think that such punishments would stop this kind of crime? it would stop rational people, but these people, and the ones that commit the most heinous of crimes are hardly rational.

    We need to focus on the root of the problem. This stuff starts in the home. if we want to level our action, be it offering support or levying punishment, anywhere, it should be here.
    To be honest, I agree with your views on the death penalty.
    However, in cases like these I'm not sure the question is, 'Will killing these two serve as a deterrence for others?' but rather 'Maybe we should just get rid of people like this.'
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    (Original post by Trigger)
    Not at all but if you want to look at "fair" is it fair the kids who did this were born to parents who didn't want them? Or fostered by people who couldn't look after them? Or then re-fostered to another couple who couldn't control them? I am not saying that what these kids did was good or ok or even normal but i am getting a little sick of people seeing this as some sort of black and white, open and shut case. There are hundreds of reasons that this terrible thing happened yet all some people care about is getting their pound of flesh.
    Aren't there loads of kids who are in the same situation thought? But not all of them go round murdering young children, so how can you use that excuse to justify their actions?
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    (Original post by Trigger)
    I haven't even said they shouldn't be punished. I am all for them being punished but not to the extent that we should murder them! What's wrong with you?
    And if you read my posts you'd know that I have doubts about killing them, in fact, I support life imprisonment.

    What 'extent' would you like them to be punished, then?
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    (Original post by Alexio)
    To be honest, I agree with your views on the death penalty.
    However, in cases like these I'm not sure the question is, 'Will killing these two serve as a deterrence for others?' but rather 'Maybe we should just get rid of people like this.'
    That is a fantastic slippery slope argument. People like what exactly?
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    (Original post by Alexio)
    To be honest, I agree with your views on the death penalty.
    However, in cases like these I'm not sure the question is, 'Will killing these two serve as a deterrence for others?' but rather 'Maybe we should just get rid of people like this.'
    A fair point. Although these kids are clearly wasters, the thing is, getting rid of them will serve no purpose whatsoever. It wont fix any problems. It is pretty much closing the barn door after the horses have bolted.

    The thing is, killing two young boys, whatever the circumstance, compromises our sense of humanity. How can we call ourselves a civilised nation when we are murdering young children?
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    (Original post by Alexio)
    And if you read my posts you'd know that I have doubts about killing them, in fact, I support life imprisonment.

    What 'extent' would you like them to be punished, then?
    A reasonable extent. Yes that is a cop out but 1) i am knackered and 2) I have no idea where you would start with such a complicated case. Life imprisonment? How is that better than death?
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    (Original post by Trigger)
    That is a fantastic slippery slope argument. People like what exactly?
    People who commit heinous crimes, causing irreperable damage to their victims and showing little or no remorse, maybe?
    Obviously it would be up to a person more qualified than I to decide.
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    Psychopaths like these young boys are incapable of change, so don't give the option of psychiatric help
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    Just slit their throats and make them suffer for 6 seconds and make them feel the same pain they did upon the child anyway their death is hardly rare
    Some pathetic 17 year old will just pop out another 2 kids and they will do the same rinse and repeat, this is why teenagers need to be castrated
    Only smart chrildren should be allowed children purely because they will have smart children, logically they would know killing is wrong.
    And blaming the whole computer games 18 dvds is a ton of crap sorry it is just a political and theoretical scapegoat that parents or the media use because infact it is the parents fault.
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    (Original post by Trigger)
    That is a fantastic slippery slope argument. People like what exactly?
    You are rather argumentative today...

    It may appear to be a slippery slope argument, but the entire legal system would have started off as a potentially slippery slope argument, and i can imagine there were hoardes of people like yourself at the beginning of formal law who said rubbish like "aha, but how do you define a thief? What if he steals to feed his starving family? What if he steals from the rich to give to the poor - you wouldnt put robin hood in prison would you!??" Until the law dug their heels in and set a definition. This is how an argument that appears to be a slippery slope takes shape and becomes logical. We dig our heels in and provide a comprehensive definition, accepting that it might not be perfect, but pragmatically, it is the best we can do.
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    (Original post by aeonflux)
    I lol when people try and use the excuse of it being too expensive to keep people in jail as justification for the death penalty. In the US states with the death penalty criminals typically spend years on death row, and executing a prisoner is typically more expensive than life imprisonment.
    It's not about the prison, it's about the rehabilitation programmes. How is executing more expensive than imprisonment?
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    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    execute the *******s.
    What I find shocking is that an eleven year old and a ten year old does not know that killing or torturing is wrong...
    You say to 'execute the *******s', yet you then go on to say that killing is wrong? Looking at my previous comments on this thread, I clearly believe that these children are monsters and should never be allowed back into society. But at the same time, you simply cannot condemn killing or torturing through the killing of someone else. Yes, they should be locked away with a life sentence that actually means life sentence. But killed? Is that not just teaching society that it is right to kill, if done so through an act or revenge or justice?
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    (Original post by Bslforever)
    A fair point. Although these kids are clearly wasters, the thing is, getting rid of them will serve no purpose whatsoever. It wont fix any problems. It is pretty much closing the barn door after the horses have bolted.

    The thing is, killing two young boys, whatever the circumstance, compromises our sense of humanity. How can we call ourselves a civilised nation when we are murdering young children?
    Again, I'm not sure it's about 'fixing problems' but rather getting rid of the problems we have. As Trigger said, however, it's a slippery slope.

    Also, yet again, I agree with you on your second point, it certainly would compromise our Humanity. But they have already compromised theirs, so is it really up to us to have to take the noble route and allow them a new life?

    Mind-blowing stuff, this.
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    (Original post by Alexio)
    People who commit heinous crimes, causing irreperable damage to their victims and showing little or no remorse, maybe?
    Obviously it would be up to a person more qualified than I to decide.
    How long do you think it will be until we decide that house thieves and joy riders come under that umbrella? Or hit and run drivers? How do you even know that they have no guilt or remorse for what they did? And i will remind you that no one died here.
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    (Original post by SteveeRoo)
    Just slit their throats and make them suffer for 6 seconds and make them feel the same pain they did upon the child anyway their death is hardly rare
    Some pathetic 17 year old will just pop out another 2 kids and they will do the same rinse and repeat, this is why teenagers need to be castrated
    Only smart chrildren should be allowed children purely because they will have smart children, logically they would know killing is wrong.
    And blaming the whole computer games 18 dvds is a ton of crap sorry it is just a political and theoretical scapegoat that parents or the media use because infact it is the parents fault.
    Warning. This post contains such a high degree of fail, hypocrisy and general stupidity that it has not been approved for general viewing.
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    (Original post by Trigger)
    A reasonable extent. Yes that is a cop out but 1) i am knackered and 2) I have no idea where you would start with such a complicated case. Life imprisonment? How is that better than death?
    Yeah it was a cop-out, :P Id like to know what you think a reasonable extent' would be, however I understand you are tired.
    Also, I have no idea where to start either, which is why I rely on qualified Judges!

    For one, life-imprisonment is better than capital punishment because it doesn't involve state-sanctioned killing. If we do it properly though, no teles, crap food, etc. It's a pretty good punishment.

    How long do you think it will be until we decide that house thieves and joy riders come under that umbrella? Or hit and run drivers? How do you even know that they have no guilt or remorse for what they did? And i will remind you that no one died here.
    I think (not sure) that in Law there is a difference between material crime and crimes against Humans.
    Obviously, as long as no-one is hurt in the process, robbing a house or a car is classed as material crime and is therefore less serious than a crime against a human (which I think is usually physical). So I don;'t think it would ever get that far.
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    (Original post by Flying Cookie)
    It's not about the prison, it's about the rehabilitation programmes. How is executing more expensive than imprisonment?
    Keeping them on death row. The appeal system and court/legal costs, which amounts to a lot considering how many there are on death row.
 
 
 
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