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'I'll die here', said tortured boy watch

  • View Poll Results: What sentence do you think the attackers should face?
    Capital Punishment
    89
    23.54%
    Life Imprisonment
    97
    25.66%
    A jail term with psychiatric help - released at some point when theyre 'deemed safe'
    129
    34.13%
    Psychiatric Hospital until 'deemed safe'
    45
    11.90%
    Put back into foster care with more qualified parents and on-hand psychiatric help
    14
    3.70%
    Other... (Speicify in thread)
    4
    1.06%

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    I think whatever happens, be it rehabilitation, incarceration or extermination, all cost should be paid by the parents. If they are unemployed I'm sure the government can find someting for them to do, picking up litter, cleaning graffiti (unless it's awesome), etc. Either way they will have lost the right to claim any sort of benefits if they are using them to bring up kids in the fashion that they did. This should stop any arguments based on what would be the cheapest option in dealing with them.

    If the boys can be rehabilitated so they pose, without any doubt, no further danger to society, plus put in employment to contribute to the economy and/or society, I reckon this would be the best option. Plus this system may act as encouragement for parents to ensure they bring up their children in a more stable and positive environment, particularly if they are made aware that if their kids do break the law, they will punished alongside the child.

    TL;DR: Parents pay for offending kids to be rehabilitated until they are well again. Offenders then put to work only if full rehabilitation is ensured. This will encourage parents to bring their kids up properly, with no/minimal cost to taxpayer.

    I will receive any replies with an open mind (to the best of my ability)
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    My condolences go out to the victims, i just hope they can make something resembeling of a recovery after such an ordeal.
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    Sorry if this link has already been posted http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/s...re/8474133.stm it has some more sickening information about the attack and their lack of remorse.

    Eventually their attackers left them to go and meet their father.

    When asked later why they had stopped the torture the two brothers said it was only because their arms were aching
    A short time later, as police and locals gathered to search for the 11-year-old who was still missing, officers were approached by the attackers and their father.

    He said his sons had been with him and were not responsible for any attack.
    I hope to God their parents are persecuted for their part in this. They raised their children in such a disgusting way, no doubt never showing them any love, its no surprise that they would eventually become rapists or psychopathic killers with no empathy for others. The fact that they attempted to kill at such a young age just shows how disgusting their home lie must have been. What they hell did they do to create such evil monsters?
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    They didn't kill the other children
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    However bad their crimes were the people calling for capital punishment are just sick. I dont agree with the death penalty in any situation but the idea of using it on children is particularly wrong.
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    (Original post by ArtGoblin)
    I'm just as disgusted at the responses on this thread. Whatever they did, they're still children, and the product of their environment. What chance did they ever have? It isn't right that they should suffer for the rest of their lives for what they did at the age of ten and eleven. There's no point in ruining more lives.
    I agree with this, what those boys did is sickening but they obviously didn't grow up in a very good environment and the attack is more a reflection on their home lives and a weakness in a society that could allow this to happen than these two boys as individuals. They should be locked up, for the safety of them and others, but they need psychiatric help and should still be treated as children not monsters.
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    (Original post by Purple_Pan)
    I agree with this, what those boys did is sickening but they obviously didn't grow up in a very good environment and the attack is more a reflection on their home lives and a weakness in a society that could allow this to happen than these two boys as individuals. They should be locked up, for the safety of them and others, but they need psychiatric help and should still be treated as children not monsters.
    We should stop using peoples' bad upbringing as an excuse for their actions. They are plainly child monsters, they chose to do this.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    We should stop using peoples' bad upbringing as an excuse for their actions. They are plainly child monsters, they chose to do this.
    There upbringing has quite clearly had an affect on them. The idea that we should treat them as if they were adults is ridiculous.
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    Did you hear what sentence those sick little ***** got? five years minimum, and they orginally wanted to send down that asian fella for around two years for protecting his family. They should have got ten years at least before an assessment made. And no ,I don't believe capital punishment ,while Iam in favour of death for certain crimes, they are young, but young with a bad upbringing doesn't give any excuse as to what they did.

    They damage they both did was horrendous and it was obviously they could not care if the young lads lived or died ,in fact one of them wanted them dead so he'd get away with it. That shows someone who understands what he has done.

    Andy Mcnab, was left in a cardboard box outside harrods as a baby,then went into a succession of childrens homes and foster homes. He was a tearaway yes, but he sorted himself out by joining the army at 15. Everyone has a choice unless they have retardation. I cannot wait until the liberal out of touch establishment in this country is overthrown . I want to see courts similar to what they had in Nazi Germany to try the judges, and politicians like Brown and Blair. For crimes against the state.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    We should stop using peoples' bad upbringing as an excuse for their actions. They are plainly child monsters, they chose to do this.
    Can you define "child monster"? Or is that some hyperbole picked up from the Mail? Without wishing to diminish the severity of their actions (which are absolutely reprehensible) these are children and humans first, and criminals second. We need to at least attempt to rehabilitate them, then the parole board can do the rest. Adolescents change a lot in five years and hopefully in the care of the state these children can be made to recognise the abhorrence of the acts they committed.

    Also everyone who has called for the death penalty, I'm astounded. Even China doesn't kill children...
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    (Original post by Carl)
    Can you define "child monster"? Or is that some hyperbole picked up from the Mail? Without wishing to diminish the severity of their actions (which are absolutely reprehensible) these are children and humans first, and criminals second. We need to at least attempt to rehabilitate them, then the parole board can do the rest. Adolescents change a lot in five years and hopefully in the care of the state these children can be made to recognise the abhorrence of the acts they committed.

    Also everyone who has called for the death penalty, I'm astounded. Even China doesn't kill children...
    Young monsters, simply put. Don't assume that I read sensationalist tabloids. I don't.
    These children seem to be horrible sadists, and that's something which you might not be able to rehabilitate. I don't believe that there is any value in rehabilitating young psychopaths. Better to focus on helping the victims - the offenders come last, child or adult. They are children, but I don't think that they can change much from these traits, they have shown the horrors that they are capable of inflicting on innocents.

    However, I agree with you that we shouldn't execute children. Only the most sadistic teenage murderers and sex offenders, after a thorough assessment at the age of 18 or over, should be eligible for the death penalty as adults. This torture would imo be a capital offence if they were adults or older teens, though.

    I don't think we should care much about criminal scum, it's more important to achieve justice and keep society safe than to rehabilitate.
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    Have the parents been punished? Surely as most people here have said its from their upbringing, then the parents should be to blame and also get time in jail/some form of punishment?
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    Young monsters, simply put. Don't assume that I read sensationalist tabloids. I don't.
    These children seem to be horrible sadists, and that's something which you might not be able to rehabilitate. I don't believe that there is any value in rehabilitating young psychopaths. Better to focus on helping the victims - the offenders come last, child or adult. They are children, but I don't think that they can change much from these traits, they have shown the horrors that they are capable of inflicting on innocents.

    ...

    I don't think we should care much about criminal scum, it's more important to achieve justice and keep society safe than to rehabilitate.
    Might not? So because there is a chance that a criminal cannot be rehabilitated we should not try? What utter twaddle. Never mind that it is cheaper to rehabilitate a proportion of criminals and reintroduce them into society than it is to keep all of them locked up indefinitely. Never mind that rehabilitation does work in most cases. Lets forget that an intrinsic part of criminal justice is giving the criminal a chance to redeem themselves for their actions (and that's what jail-time boils down to - redemption to society and to the victims). Just because you think that they cannot change. What is your insight on the case? Where are your psychology qualifications?

    Your definition of justice is the lowest form, a way of redressing the wrong-done in the simplest form: revenge. Justice is about more than that; it is about redemption on the part of the sinner and forgiveness on the part of the sinned. The justice system is not a primal tool for redressing the emotional grievances of the victim, but has a larger purpose in society; that is why sentences are determined by judges and not by the family of the aggrieved party.
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    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    So should taxpayers keep on paying for them, hardly justice?
    no, the taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for them. Its wrong that we should have to pay for criminals like these. But if the tiniest bit out my tax goes towards keeping them off the streets and away from society, I would say its a small price to pay. It is not the taxpayers losing out here, it is, unfortunately, the two young victims and their families.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    We should stop using peoples' bad upbringing as an excuse for their actions. They are plainly child monsters, they chose to do this.
    Do you think that these children were born like this? Surely the fact that almost everyone sees their actions as reprehensible shows that something must have at least partially influenced these children into doing such an awful thing. I'm not saying that it's an excuse and they shouldn't be punished, obviously something must be done, but if they are just punished and then considered dealt with if anything they are likely to become more disturbed. Unless they are executed as so many people seem to be in favour of, which I think is almost as horrific as the original crimes.

    I do think someone should be punished, but we can't just assume that the actions came out of nowhere and expect that punsishment will stop this kind of thing from happening again - I think that the parents should be punished because it seems clear that they should be carrying at least some of the blame for their childrens actions. I also think there should be more investigation into why the children did this (for example, people have found structural differences in the brains of psycopaths/serial killers.) It seems some people just hear about something this awful and lose all capacity for reason, and instead just want revenge, which is not how the criminal system is supposed to work. Shouldn't the main concern be that something this horrendous doesn't happen again?
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    (Original post by Carl)
    Might not? So because there is a chance that a criminal cannot be rehabilitated we should not try? What utter twaddle. Never mind that it is cheaper to rehabilitate a proportion of criminals and reintroduce them into society than it is to keep all of them locked up indefinitely. Never mind that rehabilitation does work in most cases. Lets forget that an intrinsic part of criminal justice is giving the criminal a chance to redeem themselves for their actions (and that's what jail-time boils down to - redemption to society and to the victims). Just because you think that they cannot change. What is your insight on the case? Where are your psychology qualifications?

    Your definition of justice is the lowest form, a way of redressing the wrong-done in the simplest form: revenge. Justice is about more than that; it is about redemption on the part of the sinner and forgiveness on the part of the sinned. The justice system is not a primal tool for redressing the emotional grievances of the victim, but has a larger purpose in society; that is why sentences are determined by judges and not by the family of the aggrieved party.
    You can't redeem yourself for some things. Thieves, fine. Fraudsters, fine. Gangsters, maybe.
    Sadistic murder/torture/rape, no.

    Don't go asking me for qualificiations. This is my view of how we should treat people who choose to do such things. You don't need a psychology degree to weigh up the chances and value of the rehabilitation of the worst criminals.

    This sort of justice works very well in punishing bad acts and rewarding good ones. I'm sorry, but emotional grievances have to be addressed. Why should we extend the hand of forgiveness, for unforgivable torment without remorse? Turning the other cheek to hideous beasts is futile. I doubt that these boys will ever feel remorse, but in the off chance that does happen, I hope they do the honourable thing and end their own lives. It's the same with suicide watch in prisons really, murderers and rapists should be free to kill themselves.
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    (Original post by Purple_Pan)
    Do you think that these children were born like this? Surely the fact that almost everyone sees their actions as reprehensible shows that something must have at least partially influenced these children into doing such an awful thing. I'm not saying that it's an excuse and they shouldn't be punished, obviously something must be done, but if they are just punished and then considered dealt with if anything they are likely to become more disturbed. Unless they are executed as so many people seem to be in favour of, which I think is almost as horrific as the original crimes.

    I do think someone should be punished, but we can't just assume that the actions came out of nowhere and expect that punsishment will stop this kind of thing from happening again - I think that the parents should be punished because it seems clear that they should be carrying at least some of the blame for their childrens actions. I also think there should be more investigation into why the children did this (for example, people have found structural differences in the brains of psycopaths/serial killers.) It seems some people just hear about something this awful and lose all capacity for reason, and instead just want revenge, which is not how the criminal system is supposed to work. Shouldn't the main concern be that something this horrendous doesn't happen again?
    No, I don't think they were born guaranteed to do this. Yet it was within them to inflict such terrible suffering, other children would have reacted differently. Just sucks that they had psychopath genes.
    However, I don't think that there is any worth in rehab for people like this, the world is better off with them locked up for a long time, even dead.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    You can't redeem yourself for some things. Thieves, fine. Fraudsters, fine. Gangsters, maybe.
    Sadistic murder/torture/rape, no.

    Don't go asking me for qualificiations. This is my view of how we should treat people who choose to do such things. You don't need a psychology degree to weigh up the chances and value of the rehabilitation of the worst criminals.
    Thank goodness your view isn't the one which prevails then. Unfortunately you do need a psychology degree when evaluating criminals progress with regards to rehabilitation. That's the way things are.

    This sort of justice works very well in punishing bad acts and rewarding good ones. I'm sorry, but emotional grievances have to be addressed. Why should we extend the hand of forgiveness, for unforgivable torment without remorse? Turning the other cheek to hideous beasts is futile. I doubt that these boys will ever feel remorse, but in the off chance that does happen, I hope they do the honourable thing and end their own lives. It's the same with suicide watch in prisons really, murderers and rapists should be free to kill themselves.
    To me, no crime is unforgiveable and all transgressions can be forgiven if you have the moral fibre and adequate principles. This is one example of many where the family of victims of the IRA have forgiven their murderers. At the end of the day it is about having the courage to look the victim in the eye and tell them "what you did was awful, but you can do your time and I will forgive you". Turning the other cheek is far from futile, it is the hallmark of a civilised society. By killing criminals, or even allowing them to kill themselves, society is lowering itself to the depraved levels of the criminals themselves. If society does allow this to happen, it is saying that barbarism is acceptable, and in doing so becomes no better than the criminals themselves. Society has to take a prinicipled stance on crime and a balance of punishment and rehabilitation (in every case) is the way to achieve this.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    No, I don't think they were born guaranteed to do this. Yet it was within them to inflict such terrible suffering, other children would have reacted differently. Just sucks that they had psychopath genes.
    However, I don't think that there is any worth in rehab for people like this, the world is better off with them locked up for a long time, even dead.
    Perhaps rehab wouldn't work, and there are a few instances when people have even slipped through the cracks and been deemed safe before going out into the world and committing more crimes. I still don't think it's for us to say that these children cannot be rehabilitated, just because their crimes were so horrendous. I do agree that they should be locked up, for reasons including punishment (I will not argue that the children should be allowed to go without any kind of punishment, as of course they must learn that actions have consequences) but if we're locking them away anyway, surely while they are in prison there should be attempts to rehabilitate them. Otherwise we're passing judgement that these children shouldn't get any help, even though it could in the long run be beneficial to society. I think that if there's a chance they could be rehabilitated, then that chance should be taken.
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    (Original post by L i b)
    Violence is bad... let's murder two children to sort it out. Clever.
    So we should do what as we incompetently did with Venables and Thompson then?
 
 
 
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