The whole 'LJMU' -v- 'University of Liverpool' debate...

Hi there,
Well, im a first year undergrad at University of Liverpool. Even though it's my first year at degree level, i in fact completed my Access course at the same Uni the year before so I do have the knowledge and experience to give my views of the institution.

I think that UoL is (from opinions of people who currently study there who are mature students) viewed as a very elitist University. There's no denying there are some exceptionally very bright students here who get straight A's from A-level, but with that comes mostly the class-ist issues. My view is that it is a very prestiguous University which excels itself in most of its departments, the facilities are excellent, the campus is great (I love it) and it is considered one of the better Universities in the North West aside from Manchester Uni. Now, as a mature student, and having already been here since 2008, I definitely notice the class issue. ALOT of the students in my tutorials/lectures are .....to put it bluntly - snobs, quick to judge and usually have an air of ignorance about them. Not ALL students are like that, but the snobby ones really seem to stand out to me. It does make me feel slightly uncomfortable only because ok, they are probably alot more intelligent than me but it's the whole snobby attitude. I'm a born and bred scouser who can get on with MOST people, im mega friendly, love a good laugh and can take the pi$$ out of myself - i dont take myself seriously. But it is hard to meet other students who are similar to me, not due to the age, but the class issue. Ive got 3 good uni friends who are 10 years younger than me and 1 of them is very mature for her age, incredibly funny and speaks alot of sense (teaches me a few things!) and she is Irish - maybe there's a conneciton there with scousers, haha. The other 2 are lovely aswell, but they have come from privaledged background and don't share the same sense of humour as me at times compared to the irish girl.

Anyway, so for me, whilst UoL is academically brilliant and much better on your CV, there is an elitist issue there and i find that it's not as down to earth as the other Uni's - JMU and Hope. It's not a BIG deal for me, im a grown girl, ive got my own mates at home but it's more slightly annoying/uncomfortable in lectures/tutorials when these snobs think they're either superior to everyone else or trying to be a smart ass. I did have the option of going to JMU but i stayed at UoL after my access course because i'd already settled in and it does look more impressive on your CV.

Now, a couple of my other friends who were on the same Access course at UoL went on to Hope and JMU. Their views are that JMU/Hope is alot more down to earth and non-elitist. They are not biased because they have experienced both Uni's - it's just their own view. I definately wouldn't have minded going to Hope or JMU because well, i like that idea of it being down to earth - makes it easier to settle in and meet more down to earth people. JMU's policy on the admission for Access students is 40%. My mate who went to Hope said that he only needed to get 40% to get into Hope - i was stunned. I slaved my ass off on the Access course at UoL to get over 60% because that's what you need to get accepted into the UoL... From one perspective, it's good that it's set at 40%, it gives those people who struggled doing an Access course a chance to do a degree. Doing an Access course is HARD WORK. I got 64% overall on my Access course - i still didn't feel happy with that because other people on my Access course were getting high 70's and even an 80%!!! That's what i feel about UoL that the view is to get a 1st - anything less isn't really that good. It's real pressure I tell ya! I did 5 essays, a Report and work on SSPS and it DEFINATLEY prepared me for degree level so I am really thankful for UoL for preparing me well through there own Access course. So for Hope and JMU to accept 40% for an Access course is really good - it opens lots of doors to those people who struggled at Access level but can still achieve a 2:1 if presented the opportunity which Hope and JMU have done. On the other hand, 40% is a very low mark and surely means that they're not setting any academic standards in comparision to UoL? You need to get over 60% for UoL because they want the best of the best and they will only accept the brightest of the bright - they have a reputation to uphold don't forget (based on the The Times /The Guardian Top 50 Universities) so I kind of feel privaledged because i have done well to succeed and it will of course............look good on my CV and i am proud to go to UoL because it offers the best of everything, ok, couple of blips in the teaching standards, but that depends on the department. I kind of wish I could have the down to earth feeling of Hope injected into UoL though.

Im doing Business and I could have done that at Hope or JMU but i was happy to stay at an institution that academically is performing better than Hope or JMU. If you want to do Law, Medicine, any Chemistry/Biology/Physics related degree, Engineering or Vetinary then UoL is your BEST bet if you want a career out of those areas. Any other subject then I believe (my own opinion) that it is not as important to go to UoL as it is Hope or JMU. Hope Uni can equally provide great teaching or social work degrees and graduates can get successful careers but when it comes to the hardcore professions that earn megabux, then UoL is your best bet - without a doubt.

Im starting again in September because I wasn't happy with my choice of degree (Business and Italian). I LOVE the Business aspect and do well in that, but the Italian is WAY too intense for me as a complete beginner no A-Level languages. They accepted me on the basis of enthusiasm, ability and the fact that i am a mature student whom was already at UoL doing an Access course. The general admission is that you HAVE to have an A-Level language, but that was overlooked so I was very lucky indeed. I really wanted to do Italian, ive been to Italy a few times, love the language the history etc, but the volume and pace of work was very stressful for me as a mature student and beginner (even in the beginners class!). Ive decided to stay at UoL in September 2010 because I really enjoyed studying the business modules and the level of teaching was brilliant in the lectures, i loved it - even if the snobs got on my nerves (snobs/smart asses were more evident in my Italian classes....). I did consider Hope because they have a Management degree which is RIGHT up my street but i am completely swayed by the whole 'what looks better on the CV' matter even though I would probably feel more comfortable at Hope as more mature students go there than UoL.....(same with JMU).

So if you are wanting a career in the previous named subjects go to UoL, other to that i don't think it really matters what Uni you go to as long as you are happy where you are and what you are studying. It depends what your priorities are and if you want a successful high flying career in top professions, then it is imperative that you go to the better performing Uni. Sad, but true.

When i hear or think of the students who go to JMU i TRY not to judge. i.e. Oh, they only went there because they didn't get the best marks and didn't get accepted into UoL, BUT, it could be that the offer better designed courses, i don't know. I don't want to be snobby because that's not who I am!! lol

By the way, it's quite amusing when I see/hear people say 'i'm at Liverpool Uni' and people usually assume it's JMU - when it's not - it's UoL. If you go to JMU, then people should say JMU.......lol

Another case study, my friend who did her degree at Edge Hill at 29 went on to work in London, then in Bermuda for 5 years doing incredibly well in her career. She did a degree in English. You see, she could have went to UoL and did English there, but she went to Edge Hill and STILL did incredibly well in her career and is now earning a very nice comfortable wage So it just goes to show....

TL;DR

UoL>LJMU

I actually read it...and I don't know where you are going with this.

Am assuming as discourse normally follows on TSR, you are saying it doesn't matter if you go to JMU or UoL, you will still be successful if you work hard...

Yeah, my mum could have said that in one sentence.

My personal view point is (and I know that some people think it's elitist) you should aim to get into the best university you can. I think that overall university reputation matters a lot more than the departmental reputation if you are not going to enter the professional field of the degree you're studying.
A lot of people don't go on to have a career related to their degree and employers therefore won't be particularly bothered about the departmental rating - they're more concerned with your degree class and what type of university you attended.

I would never ever in a million years considered attending Liverpool Hope - that isn't being snobby (I'm working class) I just know that the degree won't be taken seriously for the profession I want to enter. I had friends who went to hope and I had friends who went to JMU and to be absolutely honest with you the university they went to corresponded to how much effort they made at school.

My friends at UoL were real hard workers and didn't care if they got called geeks - they were interested in academia and a lot of them were accepted at other redbricks/top tens but decided to stay at home in L'pool.

My friends at JMU didn't put enough effort in but they are bright and intelligent, they applied to Man Met/Derby/Hallam - ex polys. They aren't the kind that revises all the time and actually loves academics like my UoL friends.

I only know about 3 friends at Hope and they aren't what I would call 'academic' and certainly didn't put enough effort into their studies.

In my opinion, the university you attend IS a reflection of yourself especially in Liverpool when there is a distinct divide between the 3 unis - and Liverpool Employers can see this! Outside of Liverpool it's obvious that you'll generally do better with a UoL degree and imo a Hope degree isn't something for someone with a lot of ambition.
This sounds harsh but it's true. It really annoys me when local schools don't inform the pupils on reputation because a lot of them think Hope will be fine - it's just not true.

With regards to the snobbishness it's inevitable but I again I think it's mostly between the local students because they know what the other students from JMU/Hope were like at school. People from other cities/countries who study at UoL tend not to be as snobbish because they don't have that rivalry which stems from the classrooms in Liverpool schools.

EDIT: I'm also at UoL.

I wrote that to give people an in depth perspective from a UoL undergraduate and comparing it to Hope/JMU

I wasn't expecting any advice, it was merely a retorical posting. If it's too long, i don't care, i wasn't expecting to get a grade for it....

JMU is great for engineering

They're both crap.

Let's be honest, a degree from Hope isn't worth much.

UOL is awesome

TBF Liverpool university isn't all that great itself. Its probably the least respected out of all the Russel Group Unis

Hi SomethingBeautiful,

I agree with a number of things you said, but there are a couple which i don't, lol

What makes you think that the snobbish attitude is mostly a localised issue? I think there is a big difference between someone from say Woolton being snobby and someone from Oxford being snobby - it's the whole north/south divide. It's very rare i'll meet someone from say Woolton or Allerton who is as snobby as someone from Oxford because liverpool people are definately more down to earth and friendly than those who come from privaleged backgrounds down south and it is the latter i am referring to who I believe give UoL it's elitist title. I know a good few students from liverpool at our uni and from my awareness, there is no rivalry atall?....? Are you from Liverpool, if so where are you from and what brought you to that conclusion?

I agree that Hope isn't academically as prestiguous than UoL, which I pointed out, but to say that the degree wouldn;t be taken seriously for the profession you enter into is rubbish I think. You make your life what it is and someone studying say English or Social work can still go on to have a successful career as a teacher or a social worker. My friend who went to Edge Hill (which is still a NW uni) is now earning £40k in the Financial Sector based up getting an English degree, so it kind of throws your theory out of the window. No disrespect. I was saying that for certain professions such as Solicitor, Doctor, Vet, Bio-chemistry ....the professions which earn the most money then yes,it is important to chose a university that performs exceedingly well academically.

I'd be interested for you to elaborate on your comment: "In my opinion, the university you attend IS a reflection of yourself...".

in what way is it a reflection of yourself? I may chose to go to Hope because it offers me a better tailored degree (i.e. Management compared to Business which covers every possible area), does going to a less prestiguous university reflect how i am as a person?Ie - doesn't put much effort into revising, not as ambitious, will not do as well in comparison to someone at UoL....?

I don't mean to come across as angry, im just love a good debate, especially when it comes to arguing my viewpoint, hahah!

You do sound elitist by the way, haha.

Tha_Black_Shinobi - You missed the POINT. Im talking about UoL -v- JMU/Hope - im not interested in other Russell Group uni's you muppet!

InvoluntarySlacker - I wanted it to be long as to give an in depth view- I can't give my view on both uni's in one sentence to suit your own requirements/needs.

Oh - SomethingBeautiful, i just found out that you are 19?... And in one of your posts you commented "I was much the same regarding the lack of arsed-ness concerning law!"

I thought people who had a "couldn't be arsed" attitude only went to Hope? LMAO Did you originally start Law and then change it?

Just because it's considered the 'least respected' out of all the russell group unis (and that is a purely subjective statement in itself), does not make it not 'all that great'! People really need to get some perspective on this website sometimes.

Put it this way, the times good uni guide, does not dictate how employer's view where your degree is from... every single employer i have spoken to (in big top 30 solicitor's firms) have all said that a degree from liverpool, in law, is a good, solid degree. People from the uni have gone on to get training contracts at magic circle firms.

Just because every STUDENT on here reads the times good uni guide like it's the bible, does not mean employers do! Yes, i'm not denying the table gives a good indication as to where employers prefer their graduates to come from - however, uni of liverpool I would say would feature within the top 2o universities in Britain. That is by no means a bad thing as you seem to put it!


Sorry to go completely off topic but people's ignorance about these things really get me down.

You can't deny that there is stigma attached to Red brick Universities vs Polys when it comes to employers. I'm currently at a red brick University but am moving to JMU as it's Pharmacy course is very good and well received by its students. UoL doesn't do Pharmacy so I couldn't go there anyway, this time last year I had an offer from Liverpool, and got 3 As in my A levels, so you can't say I didnt work hard
. If you get past the "Oh I don't want to go to a poly" thing and look at how good the specific courses are at a particular University, then it's not all about how well you do at A Levels or how academic you are, Media at Liverpool or Pharmacy at John Moores? Which prevails? The academic status of the degree or the prestige of the University? Now I'm being a snob! lol
But in General UoL>JMU>Hope, but it's likely that there are courses which each offer which are better than each of the other two Universities.
Good thing with Liverpool is, sense of humor. There is banter between the students of all of the Universities, and the Poly, no-hope, and "I'd rather be a poly than a ****" gags are all, usually, in good humor.

I've been offered a place in both UoL and Hope starting this September. I'm not from Liverpool so I'm not sure which to choose. This thread has helped a little as I balance up the whole 'course content v university type' debate in my head. I look forward to reading more comments from those of you in the know...

A lot of the percentage stuff to transfer is more to do with competition than academic ability, really. If it was low, everybody and their uncles would transfer across into Uni of Liverpool because, let's be honest, it's the best of the three. If JMU and Hope both advertised at 60% to get in, there'd be no incentive for people to go there.

I got accepted into Liverpool Uni for Law but chose JMU for those exact reasons above.

It's not where you go, it's the amount of effort you put in.