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    Hello all, I'm going to St. Andrews to study Maths and Economics, starting 2010. However, I'd actually like to go into law in the long run. I was originally looking into the conversion course so that I could start pupillage etc. but it was pointed out ot me that there were 2 year fast-track LLBs or even MAs in Law that would accept students who hadn't studied law at undergraduate.

    Does anyone have any information on either of these things? I'd ideally like to finally another top 10 uni to study in for either this second undergrad degree, or masters.

    Thanks
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    I am probably doing the same. I am doing History this year, unless I change my mind again and just do law, then hopefully graduate entry law at Edinburgh. It is a two year course, you then go on to do the LPC and training contracts as you would if you had done the normal LLB.
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    (Original post by moonshine_1991)
    I am probably doing the same. I am doing History this year, unless I change my mind again and just do law, then hopefully graduate entry law at Edinburgh. It is a two year course, you then go on to do the LPC and training contracts as you would if you had done the normal LLB.
    Not exactly. You must do a law degree to practise in Scotland, unless you transfer as a qualified lawyer. This is simply not true in England, where you can take the GDL. In Scotland, you take the DipLP (Diploma in Legal Practise), which has a competitive admissions process--you can only apply to do it at one university, and they take the people with the highest first/second year marks.

    (Original post by yodude888)
    Hello all, I'm going to St. Andrews to study Maths and Economics, starting 2010. However, I'd actually like to go into law in the long run. I was originally looking into the conversion course so that I could start pupillage etc. but it was pointed out ot me that there were 2 year fast-track LLBs or even MAs in Law that would accept students who hadn't studied law at undergraduate.

    Does anyone have any information on either of these things? I'd ideally like to finally another top 10 uni to study in for either this second undergrad degree, or masters.

    Thanks
    As you can tell from my signature, I'm quite familiar with the whole process. I was considering applying to Sheffield and Bristol for their MA in Law until I got my Cambridge offer.

    Here's the situation. To fulfil the academic requirement in England, you can do an undergraduate law degree, the GDL, or a two year law degree for graduates. Sheffield and Bristol both offer MAs in law which are qualifying law degrees. QMUL, Nottingham, Leicester, Coventry, Hull, Cambridge, Oxford, Birmingham, and some others offer two year law degrees for graduates. (Take a look at the UCAS course database for full listings.) You must apply to the undergraduate programmes through UCAS, with the same deadlines as for first-degree students and the same interview process for Oxbridge. Sheffield and Bristol have their own, separate, applications; go to their law websites and they will send you all the relevant information. Bear in mind that the two year course will take longer and (more to the point) cost more than the GDL. It will not qualify you any more than the GDL will (although Oxbridge on your CV is definitely a strong point, if you can get into their programmes). You might prefer it anyway, as I do, because you are less spoon-fed than on the GDL and you can take some outside courses. (Note: you may apply for Oxford and Cambridge as a graduate applicant; Oxford does not, however, allow you to take outside options as a senior status student. Cambridge does.)

    Hull will accept an ordinary degree now, but they are getting better and better and their standards might well be higher by the time you are applying (after finishing a four year Scottish MA). On the other hand, their degrees are likely to gain respectability. Most of these courses require a 2:i; Oxford state that unequivocally that you should be predicted or have achieved a first. Cambridge are a bit cagey on that count, but I think you wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell without being predicted a first. Get the marks throughout your time at uni and make sure you have someone to give you a good reference. That said, a string of Bs in first year will not disadvantage you materially. I had a low 2:i first year, a very high 2:i second year, and six firsts in third year. I'm predicted a first. Cambridge saw the complete breakdown, and made me an offer. Oxford only saw the prediction and rejected me. Make of that what you will. After the law degree or GDL, the process to qualifying is identical.

    If you want top 10 for a two-year course, you'd be looking at Oxbridge, Nottingham, and (currently at number 11) QMUL. I can't remember whether Birmingham or Bristol are in the top ten. The other London unis (KCL, UCL, LSE) don't offer two-year degrees at the moment, nor does Durham.

    The situation is substantially different if you wish to qualify and practise in Scotland. Practising in Scotland requires an honours degree in law, or an honours degree in any subject and an LLB(Ord) in law. This course is offered at most (though possibly not at all) Scottish universities. I know for a fact that Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, and Stirling offer it. I do not know what the situation is elsewhere. The LLB(Ord) is identical to the first two years of the LLB(Hons) in law, so you'll only cover the required subjects. The list of required subjects is much more extensive in Scotland than in England.

    Hope that helps, let me know if you have more questions.
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    That is what I meant. How I understand it is you can do a two year graduate entry llb then the lpc and then a two year traineeship. Am I wring here? If I am I am going to totally rethink my plans.
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    (Original post by moonshine_1991)
    That is what I meant. How I understand it is you can do a two year graduate entry llb then the lpc and then a two year traineeship. Am I wring here? If I am I am going to totally rethink my plans.
    This is true in substance for England and Scotland. The name of the LPC is different in Scotland. Bear in mind if you want to practise in England, you can do the GDL which takes less time and is therefore cheaper. That's all I wanted to clarify. You're fine, no need for concern. (As long as you understand how incredibly competitive it is to get a traineeship at the moment, that is. Things might change a bit by the time you've done an undergrad degree in history and a two year law degree. Note also that if you change your mind and want to be an advocate, the process typically takes longer than becoming a barrister in England. PM me if you want details on that aspect of things.)
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    The traineeship shouldn't be too much of a problem- I have few family friends who have told me to go see them when I need a traineeship.
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    (Original post by moonshine_1991)
    The traineeship shouldn't be too much of a problem- I have few family friends who have told me to go see them when I need a traineeship.
    Edit: I don't want to start a flamewar/firefight here. That said, do you know how arrogant it makes you look to come onto a forum and say things like this? Regardless of what you actually think, you haven't even started your first degree. Relying on family connections (nepotism) to get you a training contract before you've gotten anywhere near studying law just makes you seem entitled and arrogant. People work very hard to get training contracts. Some people who are highly qualified and could make great solicitors do not get them.
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    (Original post by jjarvis)
    Nice for some.
    Yeah, I'm pretty grateful for the connections I have but I want to try and get one by myself and only use family friends if I really need to. Good luck with your law degree btw .
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    (Original post by moonshine_1991)
    Yeah, I'm pretty grateful for the connections I have but I want to try and get one by myself and only use family friends if I really need to. Good luck with your law degree btw .
    Fair enough. Didn't mean to jump all over you there--I wish I had some connections to help me get a minipupillage/work experience. Unfortunately I'm out of luck there. Sorry for my somewhat intemperate follow-up--nothing against you personally so much as nepotism in general. Good for you for wanting to get by on your merits.

    Thanks very much! Good luck with history--hope you get an Edinburgh offer (still waiting on one, right?)
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    (Original post by jjarvis)
    Not exactly. You must do a law degree to practise in Scotland, unless you transfer as a qualified lawyer. This is simply not true in England, where you can take the GDL. In Scotland, you take the DipLP (Diploma in Legal Practise), which has a competitive admissions process--you can only apply to do it at one university, and they take the people with the highest first/second year marks.



    As you can tell from my signature, I'm quite familiar with the whole process. I was considering applying to Sheffield and Bristol for their MA in Law until I got my Cambridge offer.

    Here's the situation. To fulfil the academic requirement in England, you can do an undergraduate law degree, the GDL, or a two year law degree for graduates. Sheffield and Bristol both offer MAs in law which are qualifying law degrees. QMUL, Nottingham, Leicester, Coventry, Hull, Cambridge, Oxford, Birmingham, and some others offer two year law degrees for graduates. (Take a look at the UCAS course database for full listings.) You must apply to the undergraduate programmes through UCAS, with the same deadlines as for first-degree students and the same interview process for Oxbridge. Sheffield and Bristol have their own, separate, applications; go to their law websites and they will send you all the relevant information. Bear in mind that the two year course will take longer and (more to the point) cost more than the GDL. It will not qualify you any more than the GDL will (although Oxbridge on your CV is definitely a strong point, if you can get into their programmes). You might prefer it anyway, as I do, because you are less spoon-fed than on the GDL and you can take some outside courses. (Note: you may apply for Oxford and Cambridge as a graduate applicant; Oxford does not, however, allow you to take outside options as a senior status student. Cambridge does.)

    Hull will accept an ordinary degree now, but they are getting better and better and their standards might well be higher by the time you are applying (after finishing a four year Scottish MA). On the other hand, their degrees are likely to gain respectability. Most of these courses require a 2:i; Oxford state that unequivocally that you should be predicted or have achieved a first. Cambridge are a bit cagey on that count, but I think you wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell without being predicted a first. Get the marks throughout your time at uni and make sure you have someone to give you a good reference. That said, a string of Bs in first year will not disadvantage you materially. I had a low 2:i first year, a very high 2:i second year, and six firsts in third year. I'm predicted a first. Cambridge saw the complete breakdown, and made me an offer. Oxford only saw the prediction and rejected me. Make of that what you will. After the law degree or GDL, the process to qualifying is identical.

    If you want top 10 for a two-year course, you'd be looking at Oxbridge, Nottingham, and (currently at number 11) QMUL. I can't remember whether Birmingham or Bristol are in the top ten. The other London unis (KCL, UCL, LSE) don't offer two-year degrees at the moment, nor does Durham.

    The situation is substantially different if you wish to qualify and practise in Scotland. Practising in Scotland requires an honours degree in law, or an honours degree in any subject and an LLB(Ord) in law. This course is offered at most (though possibly not at all) Scottish universities. I know for a fact that Edinburgh, Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, and Stirling offer it. I do not know what the situation is elsewhere. The LLB(Ord) is identical to the first two years of the LLB(Hons) in law, so you'll only cover the required subjects. The list of required subjects is much more extensive in Scotland than in England.

    Hope that helps, let me know if you have more questions.

    Thanks mate, solid post. Do you think that following a two year MA at Bristol, for example, would be preferable to a one year GDC elsewhere then? I get the impression that it would give a better grounding and would look better on CV, but you must know best. Also do you know what the admission statistics are for these courses, or where I could find out?

    I'll have a look around UCAS and prospects.ac.uk and see what there is.
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    (Original post by jjarvis)
    Fair enough. Didn't mean to jump all over you there--I wish I had some connections to help me get a minipupillage/work experience. Unfortunately I'm out of luck there. Sorry for my somewhat intemperate follow-up--nothing against you personally so much as nepotism in general. Good for you for wanting to get by on your merits.

    Thanks very much! Good luck with history--hope you get an Edinburgh offer (still waiting on one, right?)
    Yeah, still waiting. I kind of hope I get rejected in some respects so I don't have to choose between two subjects I love!
    My family are an accountancy family- I come from 4 generations of them! That is why I have quite a few connections in the legal world.
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    (Original post by yodude888)
    Thanks mate, solid post. Do you think that following a two year MA at Bristol, for example, would be preferable to a one year GDC elsewhere then? I get the impression that it would give a better grounding and would look better on CV, but you must know best. Also do you know what the admission statistics are for these courses, or where I could find out?

    I'll have a look around UCAS and prospects.ac.uk and see what there is.
    I haven't a clue on whether an MA at Bristol or the GDL would look better on your CV. I think there are relatively few who do MAs as qualifying law degrees, compared to the ~3k or more who do the GDL every year. I know the GDL makes no difference to your chance of getting a TC compared to a law degree. I don't really want to speculate too much--I've not even started studying law, so I'm not in a position to comment on how firms and chambers look at CVs.

    I think it would, however, give you a better grounding in law--two 30 week years at 40 hrs per week surely lets you learn more than one 45 week year at 40 hrs per week.

    I've never seen admissions stats for two year law degrees segregated from the stats for full length courses. I think for Oxbridge it's about the same as for the first degree law course (1/5 ish), but I don't know about other programmes.
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    (Original post by moonshine_1991)
    Yeah, still waiting. I kind of hope I get rejected in some respects so I don't have to choose between two subjects I love!
    How on *earth* did you write a PS to cover law and history?

    I'm hoping to become a PS helper starting this summer, for law/politics/history--I think I might be useful given my breadth of experience!
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    (Original post by jjarvis)
    How on *earth* did you write a PS to cover law and history?

    I'm hoping to become a PS helper starting this summer, for law/politics/history--I think I might be useful given my breadth of experience!
    The skills involved are pretty similar- problem solving skills, aptitude for writing etc. It was quite easy tbh.
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    (Original post by moonshine_1991)
    The skills involved are pretty similar- problem solving skills, aptitude for writing etc. It was quite easy tbh.
    Fair enough--I would be more concerned about how you show interest/passion in both without looking schizoid, but you obviously carried it off well!
 
 
 
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