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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    I suspect she's just got picked on because the police have nothing better to do. I seriously doubt that 200,000 abortions a year are for medical reasons. Ideally I'd like to compare how other European countries do with this but there are too many differences in laws on abortion. However, I still get the impression that abortion is on demand. All I say is that the law should reflect this rather than be in denial.
    I partially agree that a great many of the thousands of abortions carried out each year in the UK are not for decent medical grounds. They are, however, justified in these terms to comply with the law. Since the Act is, perhaps somewhat deliberately, open in its wording they can get away with a hell of a lot.
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    (Original post by Ilora-Danon)
    until men can fully understand what it's like to be pregnant and give birth, they are not qualified to be the decider in whether or not a woman continues with a pregnancy or not.
    Like these townies who get on their moral highground over country people with fox hunting who have no idea about what it is like to be in the countryside to deal with foxes?
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    (Original post by Ilora-Danon)
    Because men aren't shoving 6lbs of human through their vaginas because, they don't have vaginas.

    No vagina = not your decision to make!
    But if you do make the decision to keep, we are on the hook for child support, gotcha!
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    But you CAN force somebody to father a child for the REMAINDER OF HIS NATURAL LIFE - a period that is usually far in excess of 9 months and so many hours?
    I think that will ultimately depend on the woman. If I were to become pregnant and I wanted it but the father didnt, I'd have it but wouldnt expect, nor demand his support. Cos I'm not a cow.
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    (Original post by Antonia87)
    I think that will ultimately depend on the woman. If I were to become pregnant and I wanted it but the father didnt, I'd have it but wouldnt expect, nor demand his support. Cos I'm not a cow.
    Exactly.
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    (Original post by Antonia87)
    Yeah I agree. If my other half was strongly pro-life, I couldnt be with him.
    :yes: surely all of these discussions could be ended by simply thinking like this. :rolleyes:

    I think that will ultimately depend on the woman. If I were to become pregnant and I wanted it but the father didnt, I'd have it but wouldnt expect, nor demand his support. Cos I'm not a cow.
    :ditto:
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    Legally, the father has no right over the foetus/child until it is actually born.

    The mother can do as she pleases.

    I was told that when I was doing Councelling Training a while back.
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    (Original post by Laurah5498)
    Legally, the father has no right over the foetus/child until it is actually born.

    The mother can do as she pleases.

    I was told that when I was doing Councelling Training a while back.
    Also it's common sense.
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    I believe in a man's rights to abort all responsibilities to an unborn child in the same way women can, including child support payments. There, equality.
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    (Original post by theBOON)
    Exceptions don't make the rule. Just goes to show your debating ability. Life is not fair. Doing wrong to balance it while disturbing the life of other innocents isn't equal to doing right. If someone steals all your money and orders you to kill an innocent victim to get it back that doesn't give you the right to do so. In other words. A pregnancy is a responsibility not a right. Just because the way it happened wasn't fair for the mother that doesn't mean she has the right over the innocent baby.
    I wasn't using that question to show my 'debating ability', I was interested as to what your attitude was to rape victims, considering your argument seemed to rely on the premise of 'women choose to have sex so they must take responsibility'. Seeing as you make no exception for rape victims, I'm at a loss as to why you've pursued that line of argument so much since that's obviously not the reason you're anti-abortion.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    I think the boon said it best. Exceptions don't make the rule. Why can't we talk about the vast majority of abortions rather than a few exceptions?
    I mistook theBOON for you so I'll just paste my reply to him:

    I wasn't using that question to show my 'debating ability', I was interested as to what your attitude was to rape victims, considering your argument seemed to rely on the premise of 'women choose to have sex so they must take responsibility'. Seeing as you make no exception for rape victims, I'm at a loss as to why you've pursued that line of argument so much since that's obviously not the reason you're anti-abortion.

    Also: we are talking about the vast majority of abortions, but the status of rape victims regarding abortion is also very relevant, because it casts light on the whole 'your choice to have sex' argument.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I mistook theBOON for you so I'll just paste my reply to him:

    I wasn't using that question to show my 'debating ability', I was interested as to what your attitude was to rape victims, considering your argument seemed to rely on the premise of 'women choose to have sex so they must take responsibility'. Seeing as you make no exception for rape victims, I'm at a loss as to why you've pursued that line of argument so much since that's obviously not the reason you're anti-abortion.

    Well the woman obviously didn't consent to the intercourse did she? And if you read my previous posts, you will notice that i have no problem with the termination of the fetus at a cellular level, nor for life threatening physical conditions. But there is a certain stage when that fetus becomes human and develops a beating heart, and all the main characterisitcs of humanity.

    I am against abortion as a way of women shirking responsibility for their actions. In effect killing a human life because they did not use contraception or take the morning after pill. I am against abortion in the name of a females looks, ego or lifestyle. I am not completely and fundamentally against abortion, nor am i against it for religious reasons.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Well the woman obviously didn't consent to the intercourse did she? And if you read my previous posts, you will notice that i have no problem with the termination of the fetus at a cellular level, nor for life threatening physical conditions. But there is a certain stage when that fetus becomes human and develops a beating heart, and all the main characterisitcs of humanity.

    I am against abortion as a way of women shirking responsibility for their actions. In effect killing a human life because they did not use contraception or take the morning after pill. I am against abortion in the name of a females looks, ego or lifestyle. I am not completely and fundamentally against abortion, nor am i against it for religious reasons.
    Could you answer my question more clearly? If a rape victim becomes pregnant, and only finds out after a couple of months, what do you think about her right to abortion?
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    (Original post by Salome2)
    :rolleyes: Please don't equate my thinking with the disgusting individuals that carried out the holocaust. Those were clearly human lives they were destroying. Whether a foetus is a human,
    But a fetus is human, and it has a beating heart, that is undeniable. If you don't think it is human then what do you think it is? A sheep? A duck?

    it is still primarily a parasite that requires my body to live off of and injures me in the process.
    Wrong, a parasite leeches of your body without your consent. By consenting to intercourse you consent to the chance that you may become pregnant, if you consent to not taking adequate precautions during intercourse and the morning after, and even the few weeks after that when everything is still on the cellular level. Yet you still believe that even with your irresponsible attitude you have the right to kill a 20 week old child. Then i question your morals, and quite frankly i question your sanity.


    Do I believe that abortions should be legal past the point of viability? Absolutely not. If it is capable of living without me, I've no right to terminate it, but until then, I believe I have a right not to play 'host'.

    A new born child is incapable of surviving without adult support. Does that mean as a society we should be able to kill newborn babies because we don't want to look after them?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Could you answer my question more clearly? If a rape victim becomes pregnant, and only finds out after a couple of months, what do you think about her right to abortion?


    She doesn't have one. Fair enough she is a victim of rape. but rape does not make her stupid. If she failed to report the rape or at the very least take a morning after pill, or pregnancy test. Then why should she have the right to kill a child? What if she doesn't notice until the 6th month? Would you say she should be allowed to punch her stomach and kill the baby herself? If not why not?
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    She doesn't have one. Fair enough she is a victim of rape. but rape does not make her stupid. If she failed to report the rape or at the very least take a morning after pill, or pregnancy test. Then why should she have the right to kill a child? What if she doesn't notice until the 6th month? Would you say she should be allowed to punch her stomach and kill the baby herself? If not why not?
    So basically your 'she consented to sex' argument is a complete red herring, if you're anti abortion even if the woman didn't consent to sex? I'm at a loss as to why you've been pushing the 'responsibility/consent' argument so hard when it's completely irrelevent, since you feel the same way about rape victims.

    Edit: yes, of course she would be allowed to punch her own stomach, it's her stomach. Unfortunately if abortion was illegalised this would be an actuality in many cases.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    So basically your 'she consented to sex' argument is a complete red herring, if you're anti abortion even if the woman didn't consent to sex? I'm at a loss as to why you've been pushing the 'responsibility/consent' argument so hard when it's completely irrelevent, since you feel the same way about rape victims.

    Edit: yes, of course she would be allowed to punch her own stomach, it's her stomach. Unfortunately if abortion was illegalised this would be an actuality in many cases.
    Send them to mental hospitals to prevent self-harm. Sad.
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    (Original post by UGeNe)
    Send them to mental hospitals to prevent self-harm. Sad.
    I know this wasn't your point, but you could never 'send them to mental hospitals' for self harm. It's totally within their rights to hurt themselves.
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    (Original post by Salome2)
    It isn't as if this is just me. It is how most countries justify abortion, by saying that it isn't a life.
    It was also how the nazis justified the holocaust. By sayinng the Jews were animals. Im just saying :dontknow: You don't see me describing the fetus as a bouncing baby boy with rosy cheeks do you? Because if anything doing so would detract from the quality of my argument, as the opposite does to yours.

    You're kidding, right? What if I did take proper precautions and still ended up pregnant (which does happen, you must admit)? Is it then a parasite because I did all that I could to prevent it and it still began to grow within me?
    No, because you clearly didn't do all you could to prevent it. You had sex. If you consent to sex you consent to the risk.

    I've never encountered a definition of parasitism that involves the 'consent' clause anyway. Also, I think equating consenting to sexual intercourse and consenting to being an incubator are two entirely different things, especially when one does take the precautions you described. And what about rape?! Surely, she didn't consent. I, personally, would deal with it on a 'cellular level' as you described, but tell me, are those blastulas, gastrulae, and morulas not a life in your opinion then? At what point do you consider them to be children? At least be consistent in your definition of what life is.
    I consider them to be children and truly alive when their heart starts beating at around 21 days after conception.

    As for rape, pregnancy from this is rare, and if the woman was to take the right action after the rape, ie: hospital, or morning after pill etc.. Then she should have no reason to kill the child at a later stage.

    Being a victim doesn't justify killing the child in my opinion. Otherwise you would have nor problem with her killing the child at nnine months in her own home.


    Ah, but it is capable of being supported by someone else other than me. When I'm forced to be the only 'host' in the relationship, that is where I take issue.
    But new born babies are not capable of surviving without society. Does that mean that society should be able to kill newborn babies if society as a whole didn't want to look after it?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    So basically your 'she consented to sex' argument is a complete red herring, if you're anti abortion even if the woman didn't consent to sex? I'm at a loss as to why you've been pushing the 'responsibility/consent' argument so hard when it's completely irrelevent, since you feel the same way about rape victims.

    Did you not read my post? The victim still has a responsibility. It's not as if she hasn't got any time to make sure she is not pregnant, or to see a doctor, or to take a morning after pill. Why should her negligence and irresponsibility justify her killling the 9 month old child inside of her?
 
 
 
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