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Mother's and father's right to abortion? watch

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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Did you not read my post? The victim still has a responsibility. It's not as if she hasn't got any time to make sure she is not pregnant, or to see a doctor, or to take a morning after pill. Why should her negligence and irresponsibility justify her killling the 9 month old child inside of her?
    The morning after pill isn't as effective as normal contraception. What if she took it and got pregnant anyway, would you let her have an abortion then?

    (Also, where on earth did you get the idea that this foetus is 9 months old?)
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    So basically your 'she consented to sex' argument is a complete red herring, if you're anti abortion even if the woman didn't consent to sex? I'm at a loss as to why you've been pushing the 'responsibility/consent' argument so hard when it's completely irrelevent, since you feel the same way about rape victims.

    Edit: yes, of course she would be allowed to punch her own stomach, it's her stomach. Unfortunately if abortion was illegalised this would be an actuality in many cases.
    Agreeing with Aeolus up until here. Particularly with " By consenting to intercourse you consent to the chance that you may become pregnant". However, I believe that if a woman is raped and she becomes pregnant, then her body has been invaded and she has a right to act in self defense (callous way of putting it, but w/e).

    Now answer his question.

    If a woman has consented to sex, she has consented to the fact that she may become pregnant - she has given consent for her body to grow a child within it. Why can she withdraw that right violently?
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    (Original post by Hy~)
    Agreeing with Aeolus up until here. Particularly with " By consenting to intercourse you consent to the chance that you may become pregnant". However, I believe that if a woman is raped and she becomes pregnant, then her body has been invaded and she has a right to act in self defense (callous way of putting it, but w/e).

    Now answer his question.

    If a woman has consented to sex, she has consented to the fact that she may become pregnant - she has given consented for her body to grow a child within it. Why can she withdraw that right violently?
    She most certainly has not consented to becoming pregnant. I think you're getting confused about what consent means. Being aware that there's a chance your actions lead to something doesn't mean you consent to it. Leaving a window open isn't consenting to being robbed. Smoking isn't consenting to getting cancer. These things may be stupid, like not using contraception, but doing something risky isn't the same as consenting.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I know this wasn't your point, but you could never 'send them to mental hospitals' for self harm. It's totally within their rights to hurt themselves.
    If someone is constantly trying to hurt themselves, a family member can have them committed in most countries.
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    (Original post by UGeNe)
    If someone is constantly trying to hurt themselves, a family member can have them committed in most countries.
    Punching yourself in the stomach to cause a miscarriage isn't constant, neither is it serious enough to be commited.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Punching yourself in the stomach to cause a miscarriage isn't constant, neither is it serious enough to be commited.
    You are a bitter silly person. I pity you.
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    (Original post by UGeNe)
    You are a bitter silly person. I pity you.

    'Silly'? Gosh, you sure know how to hit where it hurts.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    She most certainly has not consented to becoming pregnant. I think you're getting confused about what consent means. Being aware that there's a chance your actions lead to something doesn't mean you consent to it. Leaving a window open isn't consenting to being robbed. Smoking isn't consenting to getting cancer. These things may be stupid, like not using contraception, but doing something risky isn't the same as consenting.
    False analogies, the reasoning is sound. And I know what "consent" means. There is only one way to become pregnant, and that is through sexual intercourse (excluding any artificial means, though they're essentially irrelevant anyway). Stopping sexual intercourse or contraception is thus the way to stop giving consent to your uterus to grow a foetus.

    Just FYI: I'm neither pro-life nor pro-choice, but I don't know the answer to my question. And, while irrelevant I suppose, it's nice to know that you consider a foetus as a cancerous lump.
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    (Original post by Hy~)
    False analogies, the reasoning is sound. And I know what "consent" means. There is only one way to become pregnant, and that is through sexual intercourse (excluding any artificial means, though they're essentially irrelevant anyway). Stopping sexual intercourse or contraception is thus the way to stop giving consent to your uterus to grow a foetus.

    Just FYI: I'm neither pro-life nor pro-choice, but I don't know the answer to my question. And, while irrelevant I suppose, it's nice to know that you consider a foetus as a cancerous lump.
    #

    You haven't explained why having sex is consenting to having a child.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    #

    You haven't explained why having sex is consenting to having a child.
    Sigh. Are you kicking up a stink because you genuinely don't understand or just don't know how/want to answer the question? I'll explain it to you if you don't understand, but if you won't answer after that, why should I bother?
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    It strikes me that there are a lot of sexist women out there, who have decided that men have no say whatsoever over their baby just because it decided to anchor itself "like a parasite" to the mother.


    Are you serious? Really?
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    (Original post by Hy~)
    Sigh. Are you kicking up a stink because you genuinely don't understand or just don't know how/want to answer the question? I'll explain it to you if you don't understand, but if you won't answer after that, why should I bother?
    I'm pushing the point because you're acting as though it's obvious when it really isn't. I also don't think you have a clue what consent means. Something 'being someone's fault' isn't consent. With consent, you have to specifically give it. For example, the whole issue about consent when it comes to rape. You literally have to say 'yes' for it to be consent. Going back to a guy's house, kissing him, doing other stuff with him doesn't consent to sex, even though it may well lead to it. Having sex with a guy doesn't consent to getting pregnant, even though it may well lead it it. Leaving a window open isn't consenting to get robbed. Having your mobile out in an alley isn't consenting to get mugged. These are all risky and sometimes stupid things, but it's quite clear that they have not consented, because they do not want these things.
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    (Original post by yodude888)
    It strikes me that there are a lot of sexist women out there, who have decided that men have no say whatsoever over their baby just because it decided to anchor itself "like a parasite" to the mother.


    Are you serious? Really?
    Yeah, totally. What else would you suggest, than a man should be able to force a woman to have or not have an abortion?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Yeah, totally. What else would you suggest, than a man should be able to force a woman to have or not have an abortion?

    What I find issue with is the fact that women will say "because that's the way the biology worked out - it just so happens that it's in us, therefore WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE."

    You see, I don't find that as being very well justified.

    Let's agree with the "that's the way the biology worked out" and take that as a given. Why should the next conclusion be that women have the ultimate right to decide, rather than the responsability to deliver the child if either parent wants it?

    Women say "tough luck, padre, it's in my stomach, we decide abortion or not" ... why can't men say "tough luck, it's in your stomach, it's your responsability to give birth to it if I want it."


    Do you see what I'm getting at? I don't think you have a convincing definitive argument as to why the legal system and society should work on the former rather than the latter.
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    (Original post by yodude888)
    What I find issue with is the fact that women will say "because that's the way the biology worked out - it just so happens that it's in us, therefore WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE."

    You see, I don't find that as being very well justified.

    Let's agree with the "that's the way the biology worked out" and take that as a given. Why should the next conclusion be that women have the ultimate right to decide, rather than the responsability to deliver the child if either parent wants it?

    Women say "tough luck, padre, it's in my stomach, we decide abortion or not" ... why can't men say "tough luck, it's in your stomach, it's your responsability to give birth to it if I want it."


    Do you see what I'm getting at? I don't think you have a convincing definitive argument as to why the legal system and society should work on the former rather than the latter.

    So you're arguing against abortion in general? See, that's not necessarily the same as the argument that men should have control over the foetus.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    So you're arguing against abortion in general? See, that's not necessarily the same as the argument that men should have control over the foetus.
    Not at all - abortion is absolutely fine if neither parent wants the child, if the father does not come forward, or if it's rape, etc. etc.

    My post was treating this specific situation: If a mother wants an abortion and the father wants his child alive, the he should have the right to make her keep it, even if she does not want anything to do with it after birth.

    You can't infer from that that I'm against abortion in general.

    Please do people the courtesy of reading their posts and giving a decent argued reply, not just finding ways to avoid responding properly.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I'm pushing the point because you're acting as though it's obvious when it really isn't. I also don't think you have a clue what consent means. Something 'being someone's fault' isn't consent. With consent, you have to specifically give it. For example, the whole issue about consent when it comes to rape. You literally have to say 'yes' for it to be consent. Going back to a guy's house, kissing him, doing other stuff with him doesn't consent to sex, even though it may well lead to it. Having sex with a guy doesn't consent to getting pregnant, even though it may well lead it it. Leaving a window open isn't consenting to get robbed. Having your mobile out in an alley isn't consenting to get mugged. These are all risky and sometimes stupid things, but it's quite clear that they have not consented, because they do not want these things.
    I'll humour you. My patience, however, has worn thin; it's become quite obvious that you won't answer my question, so this will be my last post.

    First of all, consent has nothing to do with what want or don't want. I consent to pay tax when I buy something, but I'd rather not pay the tax. It is simply to do with permission. If I buy something that is taxed, my implicit consent is given to pay the tax; otherwise, I wouldn't buy said thing. Replace "consent" with "permit" or some such word in the following paragraph if this is so difficult for you.

    When a woman and man have consensual sexual intercourse, there is an implicit consent given to the man's fluids to be inside of you. If this consent isn't implied, then using contraception will solve this. Otherwise, it is implied. Once a man's fluids are inside of you, and since you have consented to them being there, it logically follows that you consent to whatever they become while they are inside there; i.e. a foetus.

    In your absurd little examples, if you were to invite a burglar through your window or to take your mobile phone, that would be consent. You are inviting the man INTO your body when you have intercourse. To say otherwise would be to say you've been raped, a situation I've already commented upon.

    If you haven't the intellectual capacity to see how your analogies are completely different and hence meaningless, I really doubt I'll get any answer out of you. So I'll no longer try. Have a nice day.
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    (Original post by Hy~)
    I'll humour you. My patience, however, has worn thin; it's become quite obvious that you won't answer my question, so this will be my last post.

    First of all, consent has nothing to do with what want or don't want. I consent to pay tax when I buy something, but I'd rather not pay the tax. It is simply to do with permission. If I buy something that is taxed, my implicit consent is given to pay the tax; otherwise, I wouldn't buy said thing. Replace "consent" with "permit" or some such word in the following paragraph if this is so difficult for you.

    When a woman and man have consensual sexual intercourse, there is an implicit consent given to the man's fluids to be inside of you. If this consent isn't implied, then using contraception will solve this. Otherwise, it is implied. Once a man's fluids are inside of you, and since you have consented to them being there, it logically follows that you consent to whatever they become while they are inside there; i.e. a foetus.

    In your absurd little examples, if you were to invite a burglar through your window or to take your mobile phone, that would be consent. You are inviting the man INTO your body when you have intercourse. To say otherwise would be to say you've been raped, a situation I've already commented upon.

    If you haven't the intellectual capacity to see how your analogies are completely different and hence meaningless, I really doubt I'll get any answer out of you. So I'll no longer try. Have a nice day.
    Gosh, people really do get very rude and worked up about this issue, don't they? This is a debate, if you didn't want to debate your opinion then you shouldn't have posted. You should also try to be civil. If you can't be bothered to debate anymore that's fine, but there's no need to find an excuse in my apparent lack of intellectual capcity. It's not necessary to insult each other, and it only reflects badly on you. Try and act like an adult.

    What question are you even referring to?

    When you buy something, tax comes with the bundle. You can't have one or the other, you know this, so you buy it and pay the tax. Sex and pregnancy are not intrinsically linked like this, because you can have sex with a very remote chance of pregnancy. So even if you do 'invite a man into your body', that doesn't mean there's inevitable conception. Inviting a man into your body does not equate inviting a baby to set up shop in your womb. If having sex meant without question you'd get pregnant, then you'd be right. But it obviously doesn't, which is why my analogies are relevent.
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    lol @ the men being (for the most part) the ones kicking up a fuss

    seriously, if someone came along and tried to make you do something with your body that you didnt want you would tell them to **** off out of it, if someone asked you to carry a parasite around with you for 9 months then push it out you would kick up suck a stink it would be unreal

    the fact is NO ONE has the right to tell ANYONE what to do with their bodies, yes they can have an opinion on it but its their body to do as they please with it

    im so pleased we dont live in a world where the man gets to tell the woman to keep the baby if she doesnt want it cause i would be royally screwed if i ever got pregnant
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    (Original post by tinktinktinkerbell)
    the fact is NO ONE has the right to tell ANYONE what to do with their bodies, yes they can have an opinion on it but its their body to do as they please with it
    Wrong, you do not own that babies body. That can only belong to the unborn child. By all means enjoy your own body.. But your rights end where the next set begins.

    im so pleased we dont live in a world where the man gets to tell the woman to keep the baby if she doesnt want it cause i would be royally screwed if i ever got pregnant

    Why are you being sexist? Why are you turning this into a man versus woman thing?

    See this is the main problem with this debate. You get patriarchal religious men and hairy femenist women, who turn it into a debate of womens rights only. And in the process the fact that there exists a living child with a beating heart doesn't even come into the equation.

    I think it is disgusting, and selfish on both sides of the divide.

    Oh and as for your attempts to de-humanise the child, by labeling it a parasite.. That tactic has beeen used before to further the agenda of those who sought to kill other human beings. Namely by the Nazi's in the holocaust, and does nothing but detract from the quality of your argumment. (apologies to Godwin)
 
 
 
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