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Religion is nothing more than a Demographic need? watch

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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    So the suffering of countless millions is a test? God forces us to live in pain and terror, just to satiate his own ego? To prove that we do indeed love him. If not he gets jealous and angry(much like a human being) We must serve him and pray to him and thank him for the suffering he has forced us to endure.

    The daughter of hanz fritzel is supposed to be gratefull for enduring a life locked in a basement and raped daily by her father, to bear his children and see them raped aswell? Because apparently she gets a place in heaven? And all this time, your loving god looked on at these events with indifference? Perhaps he even enjoyed it? But he certainly didn't help her.

    Yet he has the time to tell others what to eat and how to have sex, which animals to kill and how. He has time to make rules and give orders. But when there is an innocent human being in genuine need, suddenly we must sort out our own lives?

    I will say to immortal dictators what i would say to mortal ones who demanded my slavery: Go **** yourself.
    I dont agree with dictators and i dont agree with crime against humanity
    but natural disasters come from god for a reason and innocent people may die but they will eventually go to a better place for eternal life
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    (Original post by z332008)
    I dont agree with dictators and i dont agree with crime against humanity
    Then why the hell do you believe in god and love him, a being who is most definately the former and has ordered and commited the latter.

    but natural disasters come from god for a reason and innocent people may die but they will eventually go to a better place for eternal life

    but you do not know this for certain, nor can you prove it. So you are saying all the billions of innocents who die but they go to a better place. ]apparently


    Also, you say eternal life, but in reality it is eternal servitude.

    No thanks.
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    (Original post by z332008)
    i dont agree with crime against humanity.
    Yet you subscribe to Islam, a religion which condemns all non-Muslims to Hell where they will be subjected to unimaginable pain forever and ever. An eternal suffering that would make the Holocaust look humane in comparison. Sounds like hypocrisy to me.

    (Original post by z332008)
    innocent people may die but they will eventually go to a better place for eternal life
    Not if they are non-Muslims.
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    (Original post by SunOfABeach)
    what...read my answer again pls. Carefully.
    You said it plays a non-significant role in the US I said it plays a substantial role.
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    (Original post by Komakino)
    x
    Ok, this is probably really hard to understand (not) so I'm going to explain it in detail:

    His quote:
    (Original post by OP)
    I Think this is why large parts of the middle east/africa cannot develop, as the stranglehold of religion is too tight. (obviously there are other factors)
    See those letters in bold?

    Now my quote in response to this:
    (Original post by ME)
    Property rights non-existent? military dictatorships? I think these factors are probably more important than the influence of religion
    Oh snap...I was not talking about America here. I was talking about Africa/middle east. No, no check that. HE was actually talking about them and what I said was that it's not too much religion that's causing trouble over there but rather nonexistent property rights and military dictatorships.

    Now, the US bit. I continue.
    (Original post by ME)
    The US used to be the most religious society in the western world (it still is?) but they did ok (still do?)
    Now this is actually a defense of religion. In the first quote I said that Africa's problem does not lie in religion. It's NOT too much religion that is retarding it's growth. And then I continue (this is where this quote comes in), US had/still has too much religion but they did/do ok. Too much religion did not retard US's growth. So religion can not be responsible for the retardation of the African economy therefore other factors must be more important other than religion (private property rights, dictatorships, etc).

    Mmmkay?
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    (Original post by Aeolus)

    And your claims that god is not cruel or evil with another.

    http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...minal-god.html


    :top2:
    does not reply to my link at all
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    (Original post by Phugoid)
    Lol... see, you're doing it again. You tried to be rational about it with your first sentence, stating that the Qur'an is not a scientific authority... but you just couldn't help yourself from worming in the ridiculous idea that the Qur'an knew anything about the big bang, or fetal development.

    It is an absolutely laughable idea, and the verses you speak of do NOT 'hint' at science... they are merely extremely ambiguous and meaningless passages which idiots like you have tried your hardest to twist around science that we now know. If the Qur'an had truly spoke of big bang theory, and fetal development, then we wouldn't have needed to wait for contemporary scientists to make these discoveries.
    You're misinterpreting what I mean by scientific authority. I simply mean the Quran cannot be a reliable reference to go for intricate detailed account of science, but if "in the right heart and mind" you do decide to decode it, you will find 'hints' that align very well with what we know now as fact from science in areas like the big bang, and pregnancy.

    "In the right heart and mind" simply means faith. Some are willing to have some more than others, and to them interprerting the Quran is far more likely to result in that "you know what that sounds like ?" process. Others, like myself, are a little more reluctant to do the same, and deduce conculsions as easy as the former. Then there are people, like yourself (not judging), who choose not to have any faith, to whom any of this is going to be very difficult to convince to.

    You need to also, at all times, not forget that religous faith, regardless of how religous people stress this, does not subject itself to reason or ration. It's a bit archaic, but to some it's rewarding. I'm not talking about heaven and hell here, but about the actual topic of this thread in that it provides 'ease' to some people who would not be as comfortable without any standard/code.
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    (Original post by TI3GIB)
    You're misinterpreting what I mean by scientific authority. I simply mean the Quran cannot be a reliable reference to go for intricate detailed account of science, but if "in the right heart and mind" you do decide to decode it, you will find 'hints' that align very well with what we know now as fact from science in areas like the big bang, and pregnancy.
    Again, this is not true. The Qur'an has no objective hints to these things. It only has ambiguous passages that you, personally, and that other muslims, personally, have decided to interpret in a fat-fetched manner that implies that the hints are there - they simply aren't. The passages you speak of are extremely, extremely ambiguous - they could mean ANYTHING, or alternatively, they could mean NOTHING (and this is what I expect to be true).

    "In the right heart and mind" simply means faith. Some are willing to have some more than others, and to them interprerting the Quran is far more likely to result in that "you know what that sounds like ?" process. Others, like myself, are a little more reluctant to do the same, and deduce conculsions as easy as the former. Then there are people, like yourself (not judging), who choose not to have any faith, to whom any of this is going to be very difficult to convince to.
    Stop speaking of 'faith' as if it is a valid mode of thinking that leads to legitimate conclusions about God and the Qur'an - it isn't. Faith is, by definition, the absence of valid thinking, and the presence of flawed conclusions, and as such, the statements that result from faith-like thinking can only be thought of as useless nonsense.

    You need to also, at all times, not forget that religous faith, regardless of how religous people stress this, does not subject itself to reason or ration. It's a bit archaic, but to some it's rewarding. I'm not talking about heaven and hell here, but about the actual topic of this thread in that it provides 'ease' to some people who would not be as comfortable without any standard/code.
    Yes, exactly. If something doesn't subject itself to reason or ration, then it can't justify itself and its deductions, and it anything that results from it (for example, the statement that the Qur'an alludes to scientific facts) is NONSENSE.
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    (Original post by Greens)
    Yet you subscribe to Islam, a religion which condemns all non-Muslims to Hell where they will be subjected to unimaginable pain forever and ever. An eternal suffering that would make the Holocaust look humane in comparison. Sounds like hypocrisy to me.



    Not if they are non-Muslims.
    not all non muslims go to hell its for god to decide who will go to hell
    even muslims will go to hell
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    (Original post by saalih)
    does not reply to my link at all


    Yes it does.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Yes it does.
    no, in fact the link i gave replies to those arguments made...
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    (Original post by saalih)
    no, in fact the link i gave replies to those arguments made...

    Fair enough. I will summarise each article from that link, and then take it apart. Seeing as you are obviously trying to avoid an actual discussion on the topic. Although given your position i don't blame you.



    Number 1. Why pain and evil are neccessary.

    1. God did not design this universe to be perfect, but as a temporary creation where free will beings make choices about where they want to spend eternity (in the new creation, which will be perfect).

    Free will? Give me a break. What an absolute lie. So this almighty being is giving you the free will to do what? Either serve him for eternity in heaven. Or choose not to serve him and burn in hell forever? :lolwut: If you think that is truly free will, then you and your God deserve each other.


    2. The new creation will be perfect, but will not have absolute free will for its inhabitants. We must agree in this life to give up some of our free will in the next life. Those who are unwilling to give up their own free will choices will not be forced to do so in the next life. However, they will have to be separated from the new creation, since God is unwilling to compromise His character.

    So God is basically demanding slaves to serve him in Paradise? And if you don't want to be a slave, then you burn in hell? Again, not seeing how your link is doing your God any favours here.


    Number 2: The "natural evil" described by atheists actually represents the design of an intelligent Creator. Atheistic arguments claiming that God could eliminate most or all natural evil are simplistic or naïve and show a lack of basic understanding of how the physics of the universe operates.

    Actually we know exactly how the physics of the universe operate. It is the theists claiming that a being which goes against the rules of space and time exist! :laugh:


    The universe that atheists think God should have designed is the one in which He will reward those who believe in Him.

    Ohhhhh, how convenient. :rolleyes: God could create paradise if he wanted to. but first he wants to see us suffer? He wants to see babies raped and heads blown apart by shotguns, he wants to see 80,000 innocent human beings vapourised by atomic weapons. He wants to see volcanos and tsunamis wipe out entire families, and earthquakes crush the skulls of young children etc..etc..

    Your God sounds like the very worst kind of sadist.

    The universe we live in is perfectly designed as a place to choose between good and evil.
    Of course, and what is good and what is evil is dictated by God.... And God happens to be a massive hypocrite. Take the commandment 'thou shalt not kill'' A pretty agreeable rule. Yet God said it was ok to break that rule when he ordered the Jews to commit genocide against the Amalekites and massacre every single one. He even chastised them for leaving too many survivors.

    Yet if we were to choose for ourselves using our 'god given'(:rolleyes:) free will and decide that God was in fact evil and that we didn't want to be his slaves. We would be dammned to an eternity of torture and suffering for rejecting him and making him jealous.

    designed to optimize interpersonal relationships between believers and God.
    AKA ~ Slavery.


    That link is full of the same ridiculous dogma which every theist spews the world over to justify their beliefs in an evil, immortal, totalitarian tyrant, who wants to see humanity bleed for him, to give itself up and become his slaves..
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    (Original post by Aeolus)


    Of course, and what is good and what is evil is dictated by God.... And God happens to be a massive hypocrite. Take the commandment 'thou shalt not kill'' A pretty agreeable rule. Yet God said it was ok to break that rule when he ordered the Jews to commit genocide against the Amalekites and massacre every single one. He even chastised them for leaving too many survivors.
    First of all God never orders to kill innocent people, and if such a thing is written in the Bible or Torah, it must have been the work of a man and it is a flaw in the book itself..We have been saying it for a while now, and even Christians & Jews know it, their books have been changed, manipulated, some chapers deleted, some chapters added...in one word, corrupted...

    now the Qur'an for example, the culmination of all monotheist religions and the last revelation has been preserved in it's original form since 1400 years ago, that book can be put to test...NOT a single verse there talks about God ordering genocides of innocent people...Fighting for a just cause, now that is a must sometimes to restore peace or else the world will become a jungle...and what's funny is that the most biggest wars ever, WWI & WWII were carried out by people who were not religious, in fact i think they were atheists....
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    (Original post by saalih)
    First of all God never orders to kill innocent people, and if such a thing is written in the Bible or Torah, it must have been the work of a man and it is a flaw in the book itself
    See, you freely admit that religion is a work of man. Well done for pointing out the obvious. So.. If the holy books are a work of man, and we get our ideas and rules about God from the holy books. Why then do you not conclude that God is a work of man?

    ..We have been saying it for a while now, and even Christians & Jews know it, their books have been changed, manipulated, some chapers deleted, some chapters added...in one word, corrupted...

    No, our idea of morals and ethics have changed and religion is desperately trying to alter itself in order to keep up and cover up it's brutality and primacy. And even if you take no notice of God ordering the Jews to commit genocide against the Amalekites. It doesn't matter, because he did it himself in the widely celebrated destruction of the tribes of Soddom and Gomorrah. I wonder how many women and children were killed in that attack when he slaughtered them with fire and brimstone. :rolleyes:

    Remember that this is your god whether you are christian, jew or muslim. This is the god you believe in, and these are the teachings your faith is based upon.

    now the Qur'an for example, the culmination of all monotheist religions and the last revelation has been preserved in it's original form since 1400 years ago,
    Hence the fact why the Muslim world is so backwards and primitive. The book demands you take it literaly. Which was all well and good 800 years ago. But now, in the 21st centruy, when the human race has moved on from it's barbaric roots. The Islamic world still clings to it's medieval beliefs. :rolleyes: Some religion you have there...

    that book can be put to test...NOT a single verse there talks about God ordering genocides of innocent people...
    That is because the quaran is a rule book, on how an illiterate merchant turned warlord thought everyone should live their life. The fact that everyone was superstitious 1400 years ago ensured that if he declared himself a prophet, he would be able to attain power and wealth beyond his wildest dreams. Not to mention a 9 year old wife.

    Fighting for a just cause, now that is a must sometimes to restore peace or else the world will become a jungle
    Oh yes the Jihad. :rolleyes: 'just cause' is an ambigous term don't you think? And who are you to declare your cause more just in the name of God? Do you claim to know what god wants? Or gods mind? Because alot of people around the world at the moment do exactly that, and all their ideas of what 'just' is contradict each other.

    How do you know he doesn't want Al Qaeda to fly planes into the buildings of the decadent west? I mean this god has ordered genocide before and declared it just. He wiped out almost the whole human race in a flood and declared it just, so he has absolutely no aversion to killing innocents.

    ...and what's funny is that the most biggest wars ever, WWI & WWII were carried out by people who were not religious, in fact i think they were atheists....

    :mmm: Please explain to me exactly how these two world wars were fought in the name of atheistic and secular values? WWII is notable for an atrocity which was driven by religious discrimination in particular against the Jewish people. Discrimination which exists and is celebrated by many in the Islamic world. And as for being fought by the non religious. That is competely false, the kings and emporers of WWI were most definately religious. The presidents and prime ministers of WWII were most definately religious. Hitler himself was a publically confessed christian, and used christian propoganda and rhetoric to justify his crusade against the Jewish people, and he was never excommunicated nor even criticised by the papacy in Rome. In fact the German cardinal would praisse him and celebrate his birthday.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    See, you freely admit that religion is a work of man. Well done for pointing out the obvious. So.. If the holy books are a work of man, and we get our ideas and rules about God from the holy books. Why then do you not conclude that God is a work of man?
    you would want to believe that wont you?

    i said that religion has been changed by men, and not the work of man by itself...

    it is by God...

    Qur'an does not make a human being go backwards at all
    http://www.muslimheritage.org/

    the dark ages were not so dark for the Muslims you know...
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    (Original post by saalih)

    the dark ages were not so dark for the Muslims you know...


    The dark ages ended almost a millenia ago. Your primitive teachings are not doing you any good in the modern age are they?
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    The dark ages ended almost a millenia ago. Your primitive teachings are not doing you any good in the modern age are they?
    it has nothing to do with religion, Islam or the Qur'an do not stop a human being from learning and advancing in science and knowledge..

    Unfortunately it is the Muslims who are away from their religion and are running and imitating the west, and their governments are also puppets of the west
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    (Original post by saalih)
    i
    Unfortunately it is the Muslims who are away from their religion and are running and imitating the west, and their governments are also puppets of the west

    Yes of course. If it isn't working it means they aren't interpreting it right. That old chestnut.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Yes of course. If it isn't working it means they aren't interpreting it right. That old chestnut.

    regardless, that is not the end for us Muslims, just a mean...

    more people use the so called technology the wrong way, some people live their empty lives running after cell phones, cars, fashion, etc.!!!! so be happy with that..

    we are not materialistic people but spiritual
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    (Original post by saalih)
    regardless, that is not the end for us Muslims, just a mean...

    more people use the so called technology the wrong way, some people live their empty lives running after cell phones, cars, fashion, etc.!!!! so be happy with that..

    we are not materialistic people but spiritual


    Materialism has bought the west liberty, equality and freedom. Spiritualism has bought the east for the most part, opression, tyranny and violence.
 
 
 
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