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    (Original post by saalih)
    my bad, that is what i meant, the number of men is generally more than women....

    well i think a woman should get support even if she is working so that she can take care of the house properly...but i do not like the idea of a "live in" relationship at all where there is no commitment, family life is destroyed this way and children are not brought up the right way....
    Can't they both look after the house? commitment... What's the point in marriage when you can just get a divorce? If you love someone you will trust them when you say they are commited; you dont need a ring to prove it.

    Just because prostitution is legal doesn't mean it happens a lot. And most extra-marriage sex will be with someone other than a prostitute, a mistress for example.

    Woman can also legally pay men for sex while they are married.

    Men don't have to have more than one sexual partner to feel satisfied.

    That's pretty much all of the points raised in your OP cleared up, isn't it??
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    (Original post by Pheonixx)
    Can't they both look after the house? commitment... What's the point in marriage when you can just get a divorce? If you love someone you will trust them when you say they are commited; you dont need a ring to prove it.

    Just because prostitution is legal doesn't mean it happens a lot. And most extra-marriage sex will be with someone other than a prostitute, a mistress for example.

    Woman can also legally pay men for sex while they are married.

    Men don't have to have more than one sexual partner to feel satisfied.

    That's pretty much all of the points raised in your OP cleared up, isn't it??
    no it does not clear it..

    my main point was how hypocritical a society is where prostitution which is one of the highest forms of degrading women is made legal whereas a man marrying more than one woman is considered unjust to women!!!

    also, love and trust without an official marriage is not a satisfactory solution, because getting a divorce is not easy and is one of the reasons marriages last longer than just a "love/trust" relationship without marriage!!

    men don't have to have more than one sexual partner to feel satisfied!!! it maybe true but it is not the case in reality, look around you...how many are really satisfied with one sexual partner, and men have a bigger tendency to have more than one sexual partner than women, so if the urge is there for a man and he wants a solution, marrying another woman is better than using women as sex objects, because with marriage he can share expenses and be responsible for his actions, which means the solution gives the women much respect...
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    Oh dear lord. Alright, let's get to work:

    (Original post by saalih)
    i did not ask you to force your sister, i asked which one would you prefer for your sister, and i think an intelligent man would prefer her marrying someone already married rather than be a prostitute..
    I wouldn't want my sister to do either of these things, and I can't think of a situation where the choice would be necessary, for me or my sister, which makes this question irrelevant.

    (Original post by saalih)
    first of all, the number of men is less than the number of women, so women marrying more than one means more problems for women.
    Only if by "problems" you mean "not married." It's not a problem for a lot of women for them to not marry. It's apparently not even considered a problem in Islamic culture, either. The is from the site you directed me to:
    "Q: Is marriage compulsory on muslims?
    A: No."

    (Original post by saalih)
    second of all, women marrying more than one man, then men marrying more than one woman!!! will there be anything as a proper family?
    You're concerned with the potential for, say, a family of two men and two women. These exist already, some of them rather healthily, with healthy relationships and healthy, well-adjusted children.
    That's all icing on the cake, though, because right now you're claiming the potential for 'improper' families to be a legitimate argument, when it should be very clear to you that improperness is entirely subjective, and has no basis on the point you're (ostensibly) trying to make with practicalities and facts.
    And, even if we agreed that in each married group there should be one person who does not share a gender with the other parties, I wouldn't agree with the assertion that that benefit should default to men.

    (Original post by saalih)
    If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father. Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father. Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood. If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names! I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.
    You should read the stuff you copy and paste into arguments. It would help you not make simple mistakes like this.
    I want to elaborate on this though, because there are a number of broader issues here. The fact that, "Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents," is not applicable to western countries with freedom of religion. What islam or christianity or buddhism or judaism give importance to is of no concern in matters of the law.
    The reason why children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood can be explained a lot more easily by the simple fact that prostitutes who aren't staggeringly poor are a relative rarity on this earth. The children of prostitutes usually grow up in stark poverty. The name of a man whom you will most likely never meet probably isn't the primary factor for you if you scrounge for three meals a day and a roof over your head.

    (Original post by saalih)
    Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.
    I'm not really willing to take this at face value. But who cares, really? We're talking about marriages of individuals here. If Sally wants two husbands, she's naturally polygamous. We're going to deny her the right to marry twice because most other women wouldn't want to? No we aren't, not with that logic.

    (Original post by saalih)
    Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.
    This is hilariously vague, so I'm just going to assume the worst interpretation possible of 'perform his/her duties as a husband/wife,' and point out that men tend to have much more need for 'downtime,' so to speak, than women. Until you define for me decisively what the duties of a husband and wife are I won't have any way of knowing how the menstrual cycle can be of any impact at all on a wife's ability to perform them. I'm sick of the "*grumble grumble* biology" argument, and I doubt you can salvage it. Next.

    (Original post by saalih)
    A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.
    I don't think whomever wrote this understands how STDs function. If you have a group of nine people, and those nine people are completely STD-free and those nine people have sex with each other and no one else, assuming none of them catch an STD somehow not involving sex (HIV contraction through needles, for instance) they will not have STDs. This is the same if these nine people are one man and eight women, or five men and four women or one woman and eight men. Same deal, regardless of how the genders are allocated.

    I wrote this as a theoretical rebuttal, but none of it was practically necessary. The truth of the law in most of the western countries is that, with some unfortunate exceptions, anything a man is permitted to do a woman is permitted to do, and that anything a christian is permitted to do a muslim is permitted to do, and that anything an asian is permitted to do a white, black, native american, middle eastern, aboriginal person is permitted to do. This is the nature of equal rights, and even if I accepted every single argument you just made I wouldn't believe that group A should be allowed what group B is forbidden. Not with the backing of even an indisputable psychological, religious, biological or 'will of the majority' fact could I accept that. Equal rights are inviolate. This is my last post on this thread.
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    Saalih is making marriage sound like prostitution. Sounds like they're saying that women marry men for protection (a roof over their head, providing them with food, etc), in return for "a wife's duty" which I'm sure includes sex. To me, that just sounds like long-term prostitution.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    is it illegal to do so?
    errn no :confused: i am a member of the ummah forum and i saw your post there too
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    (Original post by saalih)
    there is no law saying prostitution is legal only for unmarried men!!! So, what does that mean? A man can have sex outside of marriage, legally, and never give a damn about the women he had sex with...Yet if a man wants to marry more than one, meaning he has to take care of the women, even financially...is illegal and apparently feminists are also against it!!!! I would like to ask what a feminist (or anyone who is against more than one marriages for men and ok with prostitution) thinks about this?
    Surly the act of giving them money for their body is supporting them financially?
    Just like you support your local corner shop when you buys something from them. Do you also invite them in to your house? Marry them? And share them with your wife? No.
    Because in most cases it is purly business and emotions don't come in to it. She wants your money and you want her body.
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    (Original post by Jamie)
    you can look all you like, but the moment you ask someone you are breaking the law. A law designed to protect innocent people from harrassment.
    Yeah, obviously. The same way as soon as you ask to buy drugs you're breaking the law, I know that and I wasn't arguing against it. Someone said "If you go around LOOKING for a prostitute, you're going to get picked up by the police" and all I was doing was saying this wasn't true, you're free to go and look...
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    (Original post by You Failed)
    Yeah, obviously. The same way as soon as you ask to buy drugs you're breaking the law, I know that and I wasn't arguing against it. Someone said "If you go around LOOKING for a prostitute, you're going to get picked up by the police" and all I was doing was saying this wasn't true, you're free to go and look...
    Isn't watching porn more convenient than browsing through prostitutes in the streets?
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    (Original post by ahnaf.c)
    Isn't watching porn more convenient than browsing to prostitutes in the streets?
    I fail to see how this is relevant to what I was talking about, people need to go back and read what I was originally responding to. All I was doing was making one point and now all of a sudden people are taking what I'm saying out of context and assuming I'm some sort of prostitute promoter or something...
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    (Original post by You Failed)
    I fail to see how this is relevant to what I was talking about, people need to go back and read what I was originally responding to. All I was doing was making one point and now all of a sudden people are taking what I'm saying out of context and assuming I'm some sort of prostitute promoter or something...
    OMG. RELAX. i dont get why whenever i quote someone on tsr, they seem to think im attacking them. let me spit it out: I don't disagree with anything you're saying. Neither do i think ur a prostitute promoter.

    I'm just asking- why would someone bother to look for prostitutes (if its only legal upto the point where one searches for them,no further than that) whereas he could legally, easily, browse the web?

    I am unaware of the laws in place for the sex trade, which is why im putting the question to you-not because i challenge your views...

    What you said gives me the feeling that Mr. X is not breaking the law when he searches for whores, but the moment he attempts to pick one up (negotiate or something) he is breaking the law. Correct me if im wrong.
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    (Original post by ahnaf.c)
    OMG. RELAX. i dont get why whenever i quote someone on tsr, they seem to think im attacking them. let me spit it out: I don't disagree with anything you're saying. Neither do i think ur a prostitute promoter.

    I'm just asking- why would someone bother to look for prostitutes (if its only legal upto the point where one searches for them,no further than that) whereas he could legally, easily, browse the web?

    I am unaware of the laws in place for the sex trade, which is why im putting the question to you-not because i challenge your views...

    What you said gives me the feeling that Mr. X is not breaking the law when he searches for whores, but the moment he attempts to pick one up (negotiate or something) he is breaking the law. Correct me if im wrong.
    I'm sorry for misinterpretating you. It just REALLY seemed like you were asking it as a personal thing xD I'm guessing it's purely because people prefer real sex as opposed to masterbation, even if it is with someone they neither know nor care about. I'm not entirely sure if they're breaking the law when they ask, someone else said they were but I'm not 100% I know for certain they're not breaking the law by actively searching and I know the prostitute is breaking the law by selling herself on the street, kerb-crawling it's called, like I said though, I'm not sure about the actual processes of asking whether they're a prostitute.
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    (Original post by You Failed)
    I'm sorry for misinterpretating you. It just REALLY seemed like you were asking it as a personal thing xD I'm guessing it's purely because people prefer real sex as opposed to masterbation, even if it is with someone they neither know nor care about.
    Its ok :P Its hard to comprehend the tone during heated debates.
    So basically what I understand is that the government has drawn a fine line regarding the legal status of prostitution. In all, they strongly discourage it but are just one step away from completely banning it.
    I remember while studying A-Level law, in a very popular case, the relevant statute made it illegal for women to go around soliciting in the streets. However the facts of the case were as such that the women were doing so from the balcony of a building (and not the streets). The judges found them guilty because they applied the purposive approach or mischief rule, cant remember. Bottom line, they believed the law was enacted for the definite goal to eliminate such soliciting as much as possible; whether from a balcony, rooftop or the streets...

    So yeah i found it quite silly that while one's looking for whores he's not breaking the law but the moment he takes the next step he is, because one who goes searching for prostitutes is likely to return home having done the latter. I hope you get what i mean.
    But I guess thats what the law says... :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Jeester)
    Surly the act of giving them money for their body is supporting them financially?
    Just like you support your local corner shop when you buys something from them. Do you also invite them in to your house? Marry them? And share them with your wife? No.
    Because in most cases it is purly business and emotions don't come in to it. She wants your money and you want her body.
    sure, maybe if sometime your mother/sister/daughter needed some money, she can offer her body to some stranger.....!!!
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    (Original post by Psyk)
    Saalih is making marriage sound like prostitution. Sounds like they're saying that women marry men for protection (a roof over their head, providing them with food, etc), in return for "a wife's duty" which I'm sure includes sex. To me, that just sounds like long-term prostitution.
    no that is not what i meant...

    marriage is a beautiful relationship which does include all of the above, prostitution is nothing but a filthy industry where women are objects and men exploit them in the name of "freedom"..
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    (Original post by Joy Division)
    Hardly, the world is more complicated than that.

    If you tax it heavily, evidently people will still operate in the black market where they don't pay tax so they can offer it at a lower price.
    doubt it, i.e. people still fill up at normal pumps and don't use red diesel.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    no that is not what i meant...

    marriage is a beautiful relationship which does include all of the above, prostitution is nothing but a filthy industry where women are objects and men exploit them in the name of "freedom"..
    It's not exploitation if it's the woman's decision to do it. It is possible for prostitution to happen without exploitation, even if it is relatively rare as it is now.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    sure, maybe if sometime your mother/sister/daughter needed some money, she can offer her body to some stranger.....!!!
    Did I say that?
    You don't seemed to of grasped my point here.
    But anyway, to your comment, I believe if they want to it's their choice, as long as they don't hurt anyone in the process. Although I also believe that it should be regulated a lot better, WITH Brothels and the such so that the men can be properly checked out for diseases etc and then it can be done within a safe environment for both parties, where no one will get hurt, the guy/girl feeds his craving and the woman/man gets their money.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    i did not ask you to force your sister, i asked which one would you prefer for your sister, and i think an intelligent man would prefer her marrying someone already married rather than be a prostitute..
    i know that your responce was not directed at me but i still agree that it is none of my business. i would much prefer her to be marriefc than a prostitute, but really if she choose to be a prostitude i would still support her discision.

    (Original post by saalih)
    as for women marrying more than one man, there are lots of problems with that...first of all, the number of men is less than the number of women, so women marrying more than one means more problems for women.
    no if men and women were all allowed to marry multiple times then no such problem would arise.

    (Original post by saalih)
    second of all, women marrying more than one man, then men marrying more than one woman!!! will there be anything as a proper family?
    define a "proper family"

    (Original post by saalih)
    also....
    If a man has more than one wife, the parents of the children born of such marriages can easily be identified. The father as well as the mother can easily be identified. In case of a woman marrying more than one husband, only the mother of the children born of such marriages will be identified and not the father.
    why is this of importance in western culture. my parents are the people who raised biological or not. my "real father may have been a drug taking murder, but my "fake" dad - the one that raised me taught me differently. not nature - nurture.
    (Original post by saalih)
    Islam gives tremendous importance to the identification of both parents, mother and father
    .
    And the law should care what a minority says when the majority says otherwise why? Also explain why islam gives such importance please i'm interested.
    (Original post by saalih)
    Psychologists tell us that children who do not know their parents, especially their father undergo severe mental trauma and disturbances. Often they have an unhappy childhood. It is for this reason that the children of prostitutes do not have a healthy childhood.
    That is probibly because prostitutes are poor. they do not have the same oppertunities as other children and so are unhappy. again i refer to germany, where brothels are controlled and prostitutes have safe sex. and don't have children with random people. they go home to their families at the end of a day at work.
    (Original post by saalih)
    If a child born of such wedlock is admitted in school, and when the mother is asked the name of the father, she would have to give two or more names!
    iin the unlkikely event that a prostitude knows the father of her child. the DNA... wait
    (Original post by saalih)
    I am aware that recent advances in science have made it possible for both the mother and father to be identified with the help of genetic testing. Thus this point which was applicable for the past may not be applicable for the present.
    you just disproved your own point.
    (Original post by saalih)
    Man is more polygamous by nature as compared to a woman.
    proof?
    (Original post by saalih)
    Biologically, it is easier for a man to perform his duties as a husband despite having several wives. A woman, in a similar position, having several husbands, will not find it possible to perform her duties as a wife. A woman undergoes several psychological and behavioral changes due to different phases of the menstrual cycle.
    "duties" where are the hard line feminists? I love how you usually preah that islam respects women, but they still are not equal
    (Original post by saalih)
    A woman who has more than one husband will have several sexual partners at the same time and has a high chance of acquiring venereal or sexually transmitted diseases which can also be transmitted back to her husband even if all of them have no extra-marital sex. This is not the case in a man having more than one wife, and none of them having extra-marital sex.
    In a closed realionship the probiblities of aquiring a sexual diesease are equal not matter what the gender ratio. If you have proof otherwise please present it
    (Original post by saalih)
    http://www.islamicinvitationcentre.c..._marriage.html

    so i think the comparison is not fair......
    islamicinvitationcentre.com like using dawkins to disprove the bible, or what a holy book to prove the existance of god. completly usless.
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    (Original post by algérie_mon_amour)
    Well some women do accept sharing one man However there should be a clear reason for the man to marry more than one woman which is not the case today! He can't just do that for fun surely ! But let's say a woman got divorced with three kids, she is unable to feed them nor look after them due to financial problems; then she would clearly want to get married to have a stable family but also to help her in looking after the children .
    So in general, I disagree with the thread where prostitution is compared with marriage because they are two different things :dontknow:
    Yeah, some do accept, bt many r forced to do so, as they dont hv any other choice... And I bet even those 'some' r nt very pleased with that.

    As to ur example of divorced woman with 3 kids, I dont know if it's very related to what I hv written...

    Yeah, prostitution n marriage r 2 different things, bt its abt the controversy around the fact that one seems to b more accepted than the other (see orginal post n then u will know why OP brought these 2 into consideration).
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    (Original post by saalih)
    it is not disgusting, it is normal and sometimes it becomes a must..

    throughout history the number of men has been more than women, then whenever wars happen, the number of men decrease further...that means more women and less men...

    how many are widowed? how many are divorced?

    so the choice for woman is this, to live with dignity and respect with a married man (who must be just in his actions towards his wives), or be content having sex with married/unmarried men, either through prostitution or through friendship/relationship, which means she cannot be ever sure about it, and if she had kids, thats even worse, she cannot even have a proper family life!!!

    for a man i ask, which choice you prefer for your sister?

    and i ask the woman, which choice she would prefer?
    Its not normal for me n it will never b....

    As to the number of men and women, yeah I've heard abt this explanation many times. There was a gud one by Zakir Naik also abt that... It seems logical, but still impossible to accept by someone like me who believes certain values like one love, faith etc (I realize I may sound a bit old-fashioned bt I wont change it). Anyway, marrying 2 women contradicts my values n imagination of true love in life.

    If one had to choose between the two, yes sure, then sharing one man in a legal relationship seems better than prostitution... But if I personally was asked to choose between the two I would rather leave this world and ask God to forgive me than do either of the 2...
 
 
 
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