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Chivalry and gentlemanliness seem to be irrelavant nowadays... opinions? watch

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    (Original post by Bagration)
    Blame women, not men, for this. I don't really understand feminism. You could have men being nice and gentlemanly to you all the time, you'd not have to work, and still retain a whole ton of advantages, what's the point? Why do you want to be equal when being inferior would be so much better?
    Are you asking this question in all seriousness?

    You wouldn't have the finances to escape an abusive relationship; your father/husband could dictate what you wore, where you went, what you could buy; if you were unable to marry you could end up at the mercy of other people's charity.... (furthermore, working class women have always had to work outside the home (and pay taxes) and yet did not receive any political representation)

    Considering that society didn't realise that it wasn't 'nice and gentlemanly' to allow marital rape/wife beating until quite recently, I doubt they thought so very highly of women.

    Dating a woman who isn't completely subservient doesn't mean you don't have to be polite... there are certain standards of conduct universal to everyone regardless of gender, which I'm perfectly happy with.
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    (Original post by Deadly Lightshade)
    Are you asking this question in all seriousness?

    You wouldn't have the finances to escape an abusive relationship; your father/husband could dictate what you wore, where you went, what you could buy; if you were unable to marry you could end up at the mercy of other people's charity....

    Considering that society didn't realise that it wasn't 'nice and gentlemanly' to allow marital rape/wife beating until quite recently, I doubt they thought so very highly of women.

    Dating a woman who isn't completely subservient doesn't mean you don't have to be polite... there are certain standards of conduct universal to everyone regardless of gender, which I'm perfectly happy with.
    I've already talked about this and it simply wasn't the case. It wasn't statutory law that it was legal to rape your wife until 1991, it was just that the law as it stood was based off a ruling hundreds of years ago and a case with the same facts had never come up until 1991. The old law was overturned almost immediately. It wasn't due to feminism that this was the law, it was because it had never been challenged in court before. If it had it would have been overturned many years earlier.

    And that's frankly a load of BS. No man is going to play Hitler to his wife. If you're talking about voting and working, maybe you have a point (although I don't see why anyone would WANT to work if they could afford not to!), but the pros still outweigh the cons.
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    (Original post by Beula24)
    I'd rather have a gentlemen than a bad boy any day!!
    Ah but the "gentleman" IS a bad boy.

    You'll find most people who practise stereotypical chivalry (i.e. door holding) are in it for some sort of gain. They want to impress the girl in some way, its the everyday equivalent of buying a girl a drink, just flirting really.
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    I've already talked about this and it simply wasn't the case. It wasn't statutory law that it was legal to rape your wife until 1991, it was just that the law as it stood was based off a ruling hundreds of years ago and a case with the same facts had never come up until 1991. The old law was overturned almost immediately. It wasn't due to feminism that this was the law, it was because it had never been challenged in court before. If it had it would have been overturned many years earlier.
    I'm not sure why you're sure of this, but fair enough. Furthermore, if we establish a timescale where gentlemanliness and chivalry were de rigeur I assume that a hundred years ago, when that ruling was made, the law followed a mindset which allowed ownership of the wife by the husband. As far as I understand the ruling had been upheld in recent years. The same facts being what? Marital rape? :confused:

    And that's frankly a load of BS. No man is going to play Hitler to his wife. If you're talking about voting and working, maybe you have a point (although I don't see why anyone would WANT to work if they could afford not to!), but the pros still outweigh the cons.
    Not 'no man', most men are perfectly kind to their wives, but I'm sure you're aware of what people in general are capable of doing to other people. But women should have the opportunity to free themselves from a man who is abusive of them. I'm furthermore also sure that some men love their wives very much, and yet control them (my grandfather took a great deal of responsibility for his family, but did not let my grandmother wear certain clothes, would make her take off make up if it was too obvious, would require her to ask permission before going anywhere). Would you be happy living under the arbitrary whims of someone eelse in exchange for having yourself financially taken care of?

    (Also I'd say it's debatable whether people would cease to work if they did not have to. People may not love their jobs, but they might dislike idleness/lack of purpose more)

    I might be mistaken but as far as I remember, you have a largely libertarian political stance, where individual liberties come before social order, which is why I was surprised to see your viewpoint.
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    (Original post by Deadly Lightshade)
    I'm not sure why you're sure of this, but fair enough. Furthermore, if we establish a timescale where gentlemanliness and chivalry were de rigeur I assume that a hundred years ago, when that ruling was made, the law followed a mindset which allowed ownership of the wife by the husband. As far as I understand the ruling had been upheld in recent years. The same facts being what? Marital rape? http://static.thestudentroom.co.uk/i...s/confused.gif
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal...land_and_Wales
    It isn't what many people who don't understand the law often pretend it is, i.e Parliament making a law saying it's k to rape your wife.

    (Original post by Deadly Lightshade)
    Not 'no man', most men are perfectly kind to their wives, but I'm sure you're aware of what people in general are capable of doing to other people. But women should have the opportunity to free themselves from a man who is abusive of them. I'm furthermore also sure that some men love their wives very much, and yet control them (my grandfather took a great deal of responsibility for his family, but did not let my grandmother wear certain clothes, would make her take off make up if it was too obvious, would require her to ask permission before going anywhere). Would you be happy living under the arbitrary whims of someone eelse in exchange for having yourself financially taken care of?
    Maybe, maybe not, but the point is I consent to it by marrying them, lol. I don't think I would marry someone who wanted to control my life.

    (Original post by Deadly Lightshade)
    I might be mistaken but as far as I remember, you have a largely libertarian political stance, where individual liberties come before social order, which is why I was surprised to see your viewpoint.
    Well, no, you're right, I'm practically an Anarchist. The difference is I also hold some personal conservative social views. I wouldn't want these represented by law or legislation at all because they're my personal views, I'm just stating here how I think society ought to be ordered: I actually have no intent to use force or aggression to coerce people into ordering it in that way. I am in favour of universal suffrage, for instance. And I wouldn't keep my wife in a cage, either, although I would prefer to marry someone who's willing to exchange their career for raising children.

    As an aside, I'm sort of chuffed that people recognise/remember my politics here :teehee:
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    (Original post by Bagration)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spousal...land_and_Wales
    It isn't what many people who don't understand the law often pretend it is, i.e Parliament making a law saying it's k to rape your wife.
    That wasn't what I was implying.... marital rape didn't count as 'real' rape (and still doesn't in some societies). I think the main article shows the scale of the issue as being greater than the law simply overlooking a certain point until attention was drawn to it.

    Maybe, maybe not, but the point is I consent to it by marrying them, lol. I don't think I would marry someone who wanted to control my life.
    You however do not consent to be born to a father who is the male head of your family. Furthermore, in a world where women are barred from certain high-income professions (women workers were often paid with an understanding that their income was supplementary, rather than the main household income), remaining single is often not an option, and due to the low-status of women, that one is tied to a man is extremely important. Therefore, consent to marriage under those conditions is no more a choice than being a member of the society in which one is born (incidentally, I think we should retain the right to change the terms and conditions of our consent).

    Well, no, you're right, I'm practically an Anarchist. The difference is I also hold some personal conservative social views. I wouldn't want these represented by law or legislation at all because they're my personal views, I'm just stating here how I think society ought to be ordered: I actually have no intent to use force or aggression to coerce people into ordering it in that way. I am in favour of universal suffrage, for instance. And I wouldn't keep my wife in a cage, either, although I would prefer to marry someone who's willing to exchange their career for raising children.
    I don't think we differ then, though I think you're wrong in your conception of how women lived prior to the 19th/20th century feminist movement. It is a good thing that women should have the same legal rights as men. It means that if your wife chooses to exchange her career for raising your children, it means she's making a free choice, not taking the only real option available to her.


    As an aside, I'm sort of chuffed that people recognise/remember my politics here :teehee:
    :p: I lurk in UK Politics/ D&D too much.
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    (Original post by Rick-Raith)
    I don't particularly have a problem, but, as many women on here have said they do feel that if they were with a gentleman they would feel more in a sense... Its just i tend to open doors, hold them open etc, so like when going up to a car with a girlfriend or even just a friend (girls obviously though), i tend to open the door for them, but they think i am opening it for myself so they change to a different door, and when I get out the car i'd actually love to be able to open and escort the woman out of the car, though very few women wait for the guy, even just to check if he is going to or not, and when offering my hand, i feel like a retard considering few women actually take my hand etc
    This is sort of my point, it's like showing off you have manners, you've thought about how you think you should act and are acting because of that, rather than just doing what comes naturally...in today's world I think being a gentleman has evolved...and doing stuff like escorting women out of cars because that's what you want to do really isn't what it's about It's something that comes naturally to some people and not to others, and is more about the individual than the show an individual puts on to impress women, I'd say for example that my friend was the perfect gentleman...but he doesn't go around opening doors for me that I can quite easily open for myself or plan in advance what nice things he could be doing...in fact I don't think he's even aware of the fact that he acts gentlemanly at all :dontknow:
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    (Original post by Marlene Dietrich)
    Well...

    I'm conflicted. Generally I prescribe to feminism....so thus being treated like a "lil lady" at times is really quite patronising.

    However, part of my belief system is the very flawed old liner of "equals but different" - and in particularly this applies to the natural "vulnerability" of women in a male society...

    for instance:

    No matter how much I believe it is wrong that it should be the case I am far more likely to be attacked as a single female walking alone at night that a male.

    Hence I do appreciate guys walking to meet me/walking me home etc.

    I also quite like people offering to help me when I'm genuinely struggling with something - e.g. bags/coats etc but this is more friends in general - in fact women tend to do it more than men for each other when shopping.

    I also appreciate the kindly strong fellows who help me lug my suitcases off and on trains without resulting in me falling through (the sometimes quite large) gap because of how weak I am physically.

    Chivalry isn't dead. But I wouldn't call it chivalry really - I'd just call it kindness.
    I don't think thats true - in England anyway, last time I checked you're more likely to be raped/sexually assaulted as a female, but a guy is more likely to be assaulted/attacked otherwise.

    I just remember I used to have a female friend that insisted I walked her to the bus stop when she left mine, so I had to prove to her that if anything, I was more likely to be attacked on my way back home after seeing her off. Yeah, i'm not a 'gentlemen' or 'chivalrous', but luckily for her, my housemates were. The thing is though, I don't think she ever realised the fact that, even though it was partly due to laziness, I was trying to help her not be scared of a 5min walk following main roads - just because it was late/dark, and being dependant on others to help alleviate that concern.

    In anycase, what most people describe as gentlemenly behaviour just sounds like basic politeness - and really girls should be doing it too. Opening doors = basic manners, but Opening car doors = weird - I can't understand why anyone would do that or why anyone would want that done for them. I'll help pretty much anyone carry something heavy if they're stuggling, but generally speaking - only if they ask me, but again that is something i'd expect anyone to do, if I was struggling to carry something and I asked a female friend to help, I would kinda want a good reason if she said no.

    I guess that is the way i've been brought up (I use that term very loosely...) is if you want help, ask for it - just don't take the piss when dealing with someones genorousity, similarly - if someone asks for help, give them help if you can, and if they're not taking advantage of you're genorousity.

    So when it comes to something like giving my jacket over, well everytime a girl heavily hinted/asked i've refused, because in every one of those situations it was on/after a night out, where it's clear it was going to be cold, and ignoring the fact they usually haven't brought their own jacket for some reason, just looking at what they have decided to wear makes me feel cold. Moral is, if you're going to go out on a cold night and decide to cover up less than you would if you were hanging out at home, in the warmth - I think you're taking the piss at even thinking its somehow polite/courteous offering my jacket. I would never ask someone to go cold so I wouldn't, even if i'm colder than they would be - because making your **** another person's problem is just plain ******* rude. I've got no time for girls who buy into that form of chivalry, it just shows a lack of basic respect for yourself and others.
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    (Original post by Thrasymachus)
    I don't think thats true - in England anyway, last time I checked you're more likely to be raped/sexually assaulted as a female, but a guy is more likely to be assaulted/attacked otherwise.
    This could be because most females tend not to walk home alone late at night or at least walk with someone else whereas guys will walk alone, and often in more dangerous places.

    For example more men are killed during war than women, it doesn't mean that women can take a bullet better.
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    (Original post by ......?)
    This could be because most females tend not to walk home alone late at night or at least walk with someone else whereas guys will walk alone, and often in more dangerous places.

    For example more men are killed during war than woman, doesn't mean that women can take a bullet better.
    I wouldn't deny that.
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    Blame feminism.

    You can't win, if you treat females different from men, they ***** and moan and scream sexist, but when you treat them exactly the same the moan because we don't open doors for them.

    They either need to be treated differently or the same, there should be no compromise, otherwise we get the short end of the stick.

    Men probably got paid more then women because when they went on dates the man had to pay for everything.

    Also why does it matter?

    I treat girls the same as anybody else, i hold the door for people, but i wont purposely go out of my way to do so just because its a girl.

    definition :

    Chivalry

    n., pl., -ries.
    1.The medieval system, principles, and customs of knighthood.
    2.
    a.The qualities idealized by knighthood, such as bravery, courtesy, honor, and gallantry toward women.
    b.A manifestation of any of these qualities.
    3.A group of knights or gallant gentlemen


    When i'm given land, a title and the right to wear a sword, then i will start acting chivalrous
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    If I'm going through a door first, I'll hold it open for whoever's behind me, be that my partner or a stranger. I expect my partner to do the same, when he can remember, but I'm not going to kick off about it if he forgets.

    Funny thing. My boyfriend went out without a jacket the other night- I wore my big coat- and we wound up standing at a bus-stop, post-drunken party, with him shivering from the cold despite teasing me earlier about how I'd brought a coat out with me. I feel I was very chivalrous in wrapping my lovely warm scarf around his neck.
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    (Original post by DerMunchen)
    I think all guys on this thread seem to be living in the WRONG country, in continental Europe, gentleman, such as myself , have a good shot with the ladies. Being generally talkative, cordial and respectful of their problems you can become their confident, shopping partner and who knows ...

    Skills of being a 'gentleman' should also be considered when intending to attain a job place, where these qualities are still required, so why stop smth which may in the end be useful to you as you age.

    Women are there for a reason

    I don't want to be their confidont because lets face it most girls i know make mountains out of mole hills, i hate shopping unless its for trainers and generally i just want someone to have a laugh with and sexy time.

    Girls have friends to witter on to.
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    (Original post by skipp)
    This is sort of my point, it's like showing off you have manners, you've thought about how you think you should act and are acting because of that, rather than just doing what comes naturally...in today's world I think being a gentleman has evolved...and doing stuff like escorting women out of cars because that's what you want to do really isn't what it's about It's something that comes naturally to some people and not to others, and is more about the individual than the show an individual puts on to impress women, I'd say for example that my friend was the perfect gentleman...but he doesn't go around opening doors for me that I can quite easily open for myself or plan in advance what nice things he could be doing...in fact I don't think he's even aware of the fact that he acts gentlemanly at all :dontknow:
    Actually i do do it all naturally, but for me, when I am nice to someone I tend to go all out all most, like i am unlike most people, I don't have a lot of close friends, not because of being social awkward etc, just cause they expect me to keep in touch, which i don't cause it doesn't change my world, only thing though is I suppose I am sexist and chivalrous to a certain degree in the sense that I tend to only do certain things for women, only differences there though are that I don't think of women as inferior, I respect women, and tend to try do things from the kindness of my heart. And I know anyone can open a door, and women are capable of a lot, but what is wrong with some guy wanting to actually help out every once in a while, especially if that is one of the ways he gets to maybe get noticed??

    I don't think of doing something to do it, it just happens in general for me, i tend to hold the door open (mainly for women though, general courtesy), when getting off trains, buses etc i tend to let the women nearby go before me unless I am in the way of course (that would be retarded), and opening car doors or doors in general before someone gets out the car and helping them out isn't even for me to feel gentlemanly but i like physical contact and thats why i do that.

    But i just find it irritating when women seem to almost think some guys try to suck up by being chivalrous or gentlemanly, and it doesn't seem to be regarded too highly anymore, though i must say that when it is that it is regarded extremely highly...
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    To get a wild girl in bed u need to act like ur up ur own arse lol
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    (Original post by A_master)
    Oh hai! Where do I find such women? :iiam:
    hi The library? :dontknow: Working in Marks and Spencers? Buying birthday cards? Helping at carehomes?
    Good luck!!!
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    Some of the boys here are seriously deluded, bless them. Nearly all girls I know just like DECENT guys! We appreciate them more than they know, just most of us will be too shy to say so Don't stop being chivalrous! Or gentleman!
    Ever wondered why Jane Austen is so popular?
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    (Original post by BunnyS:))
    hi The library? :dontknow: Working in Marks and Spencers? Buying birthday cards? Helping at carehomes?
    Good luck!!!
    Do you work in M&S? :perv:

    Yeah the library maybe, I saw some hot girl there today actually, some European looking girl, she smiled :o:

    Wouldn't have the balls to just approach her though
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    (Original post by A_master)
    Do you work in M&S? :perv:

    Yeah the library maybe, I saw some hot girl there today actually, some European looking girl, she smiled :o:

    Wouldn't have the balls to just approach her though
    Haha I don't, it just seems wholesome though? And I used to work in River Island, and don't look there for nice girls :nah: Sorry to anyone who does work though now, but!!!

    Yes yes go for it! She smiled
    What's the worst that could happen?
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    (Original post by BunnyS:))
    Yes yes go for it! She smiled
    What's the worst that could happen?
    In theory I should, but let's be fair it's far far far easier said than done.
 
 
 
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