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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    But why would god not reveal war tactics to win a holy war.
    As a religious person it may make sense to you, but a God which actively is involved in sectarian conflicts like religious wars is an abhorrent concept - and I guess part of my issue with various religons (not just Islam!)

    Islam is not in danger now, its actually accepted. Why do you think that none of the Islamic leaders of Islamic countries are encouraging terrorist?
    I wasn't aware that I said leaders of Islamic countries were pro-terrorism, however seeing as you made that statement it is part wrong, part correct. The Iranian and Syrian governments fund Hezbollah, which is generally considered to be a religious terrorist organisation. Also the Iranians sponser Shia militants in Iraq (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8028064.stm), which despite the illiegitamacy of the invasion is wrong. However these are not wholly or even mainly due to Islam. More moderate governments are unlikely to sponser terrorism because it will destabalise their countries, lead to isolation in the West .etc.

    To be honest, am guessing you would like Muslims to fight against extremist. Just like the Americans fought against the KKK.
    Well of course.
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    They spend their time drinking and shagging girls do they? Doesn't sound so bad! Anyway I happen to know a Black lad who is in the EDL and the media as usual isn't telling the full story about what goes on from what he tells me, and the BBC is being as 'fair and balanced' as fox news is.
    You know a minority in the EDL? So what actually is it's mission statement? To "protest" against Islamic extremism?
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    You know a minority in the EDL? So what actually is it's mission statement? To "protest" against Islamic extremism?

    The EDL does attract support from the far right but in actual fact there are according to him it also attracts people of all ethnicities and genders. But it doesn't suit the BBC and it's agenda to show this. The issue is really with muslims who want to turn the UK into a sharia run state and who put their religion first before being English. Not integrating etc.I know what got my mate to join was what went on in Luton.

    This issue has been a long time coming really, my mum remembers muslim men being rude to her in the street and a few times was spat at,when she was in Uni when she lived in stoke. I personally wouldn't join it because the political group I am a member of forbids membership of the EDL.
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    This issue has been a long time coming really, my mum remembers muslim men being rude to her in the street and a few times was spat at,when she was in Uni when she lived in stoke. I personally wouldn't join it because the political group I am a member of forbids membership of the EDL.
    So its okay if EDL members are rude to islamic women and spit at them in the street?
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    As a religious person it may make sense to you, but a God which actively is involved in sectarian conflicts like religious wars is an abhorrent concept.
    Well you’re right, as a religious person it does make sense to me.

    I wasn't aware that I said leaders of Islamic countries were pro-terrorism, however seeing as you made that statement it is part wrong, part correct.
    No I know you never said it, but the Saudi king is the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques and all the other people who held the title such as the Ottoman Sultans had no trouble fighting when it was in danger.

    The Iranian and Syrian governments fund Hezbollah, which is generally considered to be a religious terrorist organisation. Also the Iranians sponser Shia militants in Iraq (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8028064.stm), which despite the illiegitamacy of the invasion is wrong. However these are not wholly or even mainly due to Islam. More moderate governments are unlikely to sponser terrorism because it will destabalise their countries, lead to isolation in the West .etc.
    I just knew you were going to use the Iranian government. I am Sunni so as you might be aware were not very fond of them. Well thank you for acknowledging that. I don't think I have to talk about that bolded statement seeing as this discussion is about Islam and promotion of violence.

    Well of course.c
    But how can we. If you re-read the full paragraph it says:

    (Original post by jonjon123)
    Its like asking people to fight against the KKK in the 1924 when it had 6,000,000 people.
    Terrorists are in their peak time. Let the Terrorist die out, because finally the Muslims are realising that they are doing wrong, as the Americans realised the KKK real agenda.

    Let me show something:

    Pakistan (65%) - 2004 survey- That is the percentage of people supporting the Osama bin laden/Al qadea

    Pakistan (33%) Aug 2007 - That is the percentage of Pakistanis that expressed support for al-Qaida

    Pakistan (18%) Jan 2008 - That is the number of percentage that support him.

    Jordan (55%) 2005 - Number of support for Al qadea/ Terriost organsitions

    Jordan (29%) 2008/2009 - Number of support for Al qadea/ Terriost organsitions

    6% of British Muslims supported the London bombings

    Now does this look like Terrorism support is increasing or decreasing?

    http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...ricara/591.php

    http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts...aeda_or_the_us

    Also from this (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1445/lit...slim-americans) we must ask our selves why are British Muslims more supportive of terrorism.
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    (Original post by vroom9)
    So its okay if EDL members are rude to islamic women and spit at them in the street?

    If that has happened then that is equally wrong. But I have not seen it, whereas that happened to my mum and she is not a liar.

    I do know that the media is focusing on white skin heads in the EDL like that idiot who talked about there not being black on the union jack. What he said didn't go unnoticed. There are white sikh and black people in the EDL, women ,there is not just white skinheads in it.It isn't anything like the national front of the 80's. My friend isn't a racist, and I would go along with him if my political group did not forbid it.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    ....we must ask our selves why are British Muslims more supportive of terrorism.
    I totally agree with the points you made in that post, it is groups like the EDL that cause a rise in terrorism in this country.
    I don't see why the EDL aren't banned like Islam4UK, of course they will change their name etc but it is the principle that matters. If the Prime Minister and his pals show that they do not condone such actions by banning the EDL and others then maybe the Muslim community will respect us more.
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    (Original post by Eccentric)
    If the Prime Minister and his pals show that they do not condone such actions by banning the EDL and others then maybe the Muslim community will respect us more.
    I agree with you there
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    The issue is really with muslims who want to turn the UK into a sharia run state and who put their religion first before being English. Not integrating etc.I know what got my mate to join was what went on in Luton.
    http://www.cobourgatheist.com/index....tics&Itemid=72

    America's Muslims aren’t having trouble integrating themselves. Could it be that they are more tolerant, I mean as a Muslim, I wouldn't like to being English before Muslim because of the BNP and other far right parties always trash talking Islam again and again and the daily mail obsession with Islam and finding that a large number of British people read that.
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    I heard that they just don´t get "3 at the back", "the modern offside rule" and "zonal marking".

    Dinosaurs.
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    So where do they stand in the United Kingdom in comparison to the British National Party, who are as I understand it equally controversial?
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    (Original post by Eccentric)
    I totally agree with the points you made in that post, it is groups like the EDL that cause a rise in terrorism in this country.
    I don't see why the EDL aren't banned like Islam4UK, of course they will change their name etc but it is the principle that matters. If the Prime Minister and his pals show that they do not condone such actions by banning the EDL and others then maybe the Muslim community will respect us more.
    That’s exactly what I mean. Why is American Muslim more willing to say they are American before Muslim? (http://www.cobourgatheist.com/index....tics&Itemid=72)

    Could it be that they have no:

    BNP equivalent
    Daily mail equivalent
    No issue with Muslims ladies choosing a certain dress code
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    The EDL does attract support from the far right but in actual fact there are according to him it also attracts people of all ethnicities and genders. But it doesn't suit the BBC and it's agenda to show this. The issue is really with muslims who want to turn the UK into a sharia run state and who put their religion first before being English. Not integrating etc.I know what got my mate to join was what went on in Luton.

    This issue has been a long time coming really, my mum remembers muslim men being rude to her in the street and a few times was spat at,when she was in Uni when she lived in stoke. I personally wouldn't join it because the political group I am a member of forbids membership of the EDL.
    It's obviously overwhelming white males that are involved in it though. What would be the purpose of drawing attention to the few black and female participants?

    I've just been looking at the pictures from yesterday's rally. It's horrible seeing that happen in a place you know so well.
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    If that has happened then that is equally wrong. But I have not seen it, whereas that happened to my mum and she is not a liar.
    You know that it happens. How did your mum know they were muslim?

    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    It isn't anything like the national front of the 80's. My friend isn't a racist, and I would go along with him if my political group did not forbid it.
    The EDL are exactly the same as the national front of the 80s. Disenfranchised, embittered workers who feel that the establishment have let them down, the recession, and the need to scapegoat foreign elements of society in the spirit of nationalism. The fact is that they are worse because they appeal to the public worry regarding islam and say they are justified because of groups like Islam4UK, rather than being blatantly racist like they were in the 80s.
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    I do know that the media is focusing on white skin heads in the EDL like that idiot who talked about there not being black on the union jack. What he said didn't go unnoticed. There are white sikh and black people in the EDL, women ,there is not just white skinheads in it...
    The EDL seem to be racist and the ethnic minorities who join then are quite confused. The EDL probably takes advantage of having one or two ethnic minority members by pointing at them and saying how can we be racist when we have black/asian members after carrying out pathetic attacks.
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    I'm just proud I managed to read the whole of that.

    I wonder if that young Arsenal supporter knows that Robin van Persie, Samir Nasri, Armand Traore, Emanuel Eboue and Abou Diaby are Muslims.
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    The EDL on their recent outing to Stoke really showed the Muslims who's boss what with smashing the rear windows of an old ladies car, having punch ups between the SDL and EDL, and dropping pint glasses all over the street. Real sophisticated bunch that lot...

    Spoiler:
    Show







    And what's worse is that whilst they were in Nottingham they had the audacity to publicly urinate over the cities historic buildings. Mighty defenders of Britain's heritage...

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    The prey of normal peoples fears and use that to get support.

    I'm ashamed to say my sister was in the rabble yesterday in Stoke. My friends were all at the UAF demonstration and I wish I could have been there just to beat some sense into my idiot of a sister and her friends.

    I've spent the afternoon arguing with one of them. She thinks that because they had a few Asian and black members there they're not racist or going too far. Ironically, her friend played at the Love Music: Hate Racism thing not that long back and still had the nerve to say that the EDL are doing the right thing.

    One of their banners said "Marching peacefully against militant Islam" and by the end of it my sister said it was being used to hit police with. Our city centre is a mess, our smaller local towns and mosques have been vandalised and there's been nothing but destruction.

    I don't understand why them coming to our city, trashing it and trying to attack the counter-demonstrators could possibly gather them any support?

    (Original post by chica_chica)
    So where do they stand in the United Kingdom in comparison to the British National Party, who are as I understand it equally controversial?
    There were a few BNP members with their faces covered yesterday in Stoke shouting abuse at the counter demonstration march. They claim to be completely separate and there's punishments for BNP members that are involved with the EDL but in reality it's all lies - they'll claim nobody can prove they were there or claim they were there innocently.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    http://www.cobourgatheist.com/index....tics&Itemid=72

    America's Muslims aren’t having trouble integrating themselves. Could it be that they are more tolerant, I mean as a Muslim, I wouldn't like to being English before Muslim because of the BNP and other far right parties always trash talking Islam again and again and the daily mail obsession with Islam and finding that a large number of British people read that.
    (Original post by jonjon123)
    That’s exactly what I mean. Why is American Muslim more willing to say they are American before Muslim? (http://www.cobourgatheist.com/index....tics&Itemid=72)

    Could it be that they have no:

    BNP equivalent
    No issue with Muslims ladies choosing a certain dress code
    I think you've got this the wrong way round.

    America's immigration policy has always worked on the "melting pot" principle. I.e. when you're given your passport, you leave previous baggage at the door, and you are now American first and foremost, and encouraged to be loyal to America. There is a strong feeling of what it means to be American, the lifestyle, culture, etc.

    Britain went for the "multicultural experiment," which is the exact opposite of the "melting pot" idea, and has proved to be a disaster.
    This leads to social division by encouraging immigrant communities to retain the culture rather than integrating. They have tried to stamp out the English/British identities because they're socialists, and partly so as "not to cause offense," and instead we have to respect all cultures as being equal, (even though clearly they are not,) and minority cultures - being a minority - are therefore natural victims to be championed, at the expense of the British.

    It's this warped logic that has led to problems, not any fault of the right-wing. The right-wings logic has always been, if you ARE going to come here, then if you fit in, integrate, abide by our laws and are loyal to this country, then there's no problems. Sikh's, Hindu's and other minorities have, by and large, had no problems doing this....... only Islam.
    80% of British Muslims consider themselves Muslim first and foremost, rather than British, and it is not possible for subscribers to the ideology of "Islam" to integrate with Western values without deviating from Islam.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    http://www.cobourgatheist.com/index....tics&Itemid=72

    America's Muslims aren’t having trouble integrating themselves. Could it be that they are more tolerant, I mean as a Muslim, I wouldn't like to being English before Muslim because of the BNP and other far right parties always trash talking Islam again and again and the daily mail obsession with Islam and finding that a large number of British people read that.
    Or could it be that the Government in this country, politicians etc running down to the judicary and the Police are far too tolerant of those minority of muslims who cause bother? I really don't think US law enforcement would take some of their more public displays ,such as those nutters who has signs up with 'behead those who insult islam'.

    Perhaps if a tougher line was taken , those who make political gain from groups like islam4uk Nick Griffin and his plastic well infiltrated British 'nationalist' party would have less examples to cite. And really the Daily Mail is serving a decent function in not being a Government sponsored mouth piece like the BBC. Now one should totally believe anything automatically written or said by the media .That goes for all newspapers or networks. The people the Mail is most popular with happens to be middle aged middle class women. And I hardly see them being very supportive of the BNP either. Have you read what is said about the BNP by the Mail ? Funny way to show support.


    There is also a different mentality in america generally amongst those who come to live there. This goes for all minorities not just muslims. There is this belief in the american dream and a real pride to be american. There is also a belief among americans that anyone can do anything if they work hard enough.I think any lack of intergration amongst any minority groups would be frowned upon. America is also a much larger landmass, and Britain is a much smaller over crowded country,so there will be more tensions.

    As usual , I think , it comes down to fault on both sides. I don't believe for a second all muslims are extremists, but I don't think that people who are concerned about the changing nature of their communities are racists either.
 
 
 
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