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    (Original post by Seanisonfire)
    No they just happen to attract an amazing number of them.
    An amazing number of people who advocate a single party state? I think not.
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    An amazing number of people who advocate a single party state? I think not.
    Seeing as there is no single accepted definition for fascism, this debate is void.
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    The only reason people turn to extremists like the BNP is because there is no other option, the major parties refuse to acknowledge concerns regarding race and religion, simply pressing on with their positive discrimination eqaulity policies. If Cameron had taken his party down a more 'conservative' path it would have taken the wind from the BNP's sails. Most people believe you can be British if you aren't white, but have to sacrifice that belief to have their concerns addressed.
    Well than the British public have given up. They have settled for a party whose policy is "develop a peace treaty with Islamic countries so that they can send the Muslims there". If Muslims know that people have resorted to this party, how can you blame them for feeling angered? What happened to petitions and revolutions?

    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    Yes you can have religous belief and national identity in some sense, but that is hard to apply to Britain and in fact Europe, as our national identity is based on Christian ideals, making it in some cases incompatible with Islam. The French have less problem with Islam as they follow strictly secular policy and have not showed weakness to Muslim elements, who then know their place and integrate. The conflict occurs when these Muslim groups have been allowed to believe their religion is a higher practical authority than the state.
    Yes, if you feel this is the problem than why not argue with the government or is voting the BNP your way of dealing with the problem. Americans are very religious and they are tolerant of Islam. The whole chain of "Islamic terrorism" arguably started in 2001. They still remain tolerant and don't generalise as much as the brits do.

    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    Your last statement is a causal minefield, for a start, ethnic minorities group not because of the BNP but usually due to a common language, a new immigrant probably will not speak particularly good english and will seek out a community where he can communicate. On top of this they are often comparatively poor also and end up living in low value housing, usually in cities, grouping them together. Then geographical inertia sets in and they don't move. These concentrations of immigrants then give people visiting a city the impression that their country is being taken over, causing high BNP membership.
    Yes it’s due to language difficulties but also due to racial tension. If you want I can produce many articles showing ethnic minorities getting beaten up in all white areas and vice versa.
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    (Original post by snoogy)
    They are racist. They are a horrific bunch of football thugs that can't even stop beating each other up long enough to protest.

    I'm all for protesting against things but they have trashed my hometown - how does that further their cause? Cars are smashed, graffiti everywhere, shop windows broken, litter and there was the lovely threat of further riots. They are nothing more than thugs using extremism as an excuse to get bladdered and then smash things.

    Protest against the awful situation we're in but don't make Nazi salutes, trash cities and chant such disgusting things. Many Muslims around here contribute to our society but the EDL turned up and attacked those who we consider part of our society and have been part of our society for perhaps longer than some of them have been alive for. They judged all Muslims as being "extremists" and attacked the Mosques and areas of the city with higher Muslim populations.

    If they're anti-extremists, then be bloody anti-extremist. Support tighter border control, march peacefully against extremism and generally stop using a couple of crazy terrorists as an excuse to bash all Muslims.
    What's your view on the UAF organizing counter protests on the same day at the same time, if not to try and cause trouble? I've seen one of their emails encouraging people to turn up and counter-protest, and they basically say the EDL ARE Nazi's!
    Which is totally untrue, and only inflame the situation.

    Surely if one group is turning up to hold a protest, then organizing hundreds of UAF and Muslims there to counter-protest is encouraging a clash???!

    When the UAF rioted about the BNP being allowed on Question Time, you didn't see the BNP trying to organize a counter-protest, that would only inflame the situation and lead to trouble.

    In my view, the UAF are just as bad by lying about the EDL, stirring up hatred, then encouraging hundreds of people who've swallowed this line to come out and riot against them.

    The general consensus across police forums is that the EDL are better behaved than the UAF mob, see one such thread:
    http://www.policeoracle.com/forum/fo...D=13043&KW=EDL
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    (Original post by Seanisonfire)
    Seeing as there is no single accepted definition for fascism, this debate is void.
    The vast majority of definitions cite single party government as a key tenet.
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    (Original post by You-Rock-My-World)
    To be honest the way in which everyone labels the EDL as racist proves their point.
    Up until a day or two ago they had a video with pictures showing pictures of EDL members with "Hitler was right" and other pro-Nazi banners along with other raising their right arms etc.

    Tell me how neo-Nazi doctrines are not racist.

    The majority of people in this country are tired of the EDL, we don't want EDL scum bags any more. Football hooligans have no real place in the world of religion or politics.
    Can't they make more money by appearing on Jeremy Kyle and living off of benefits????

    EDIT: Found a mother load of stupidity....
    (Original post by MaceyThe)
    What's your view on the UAF organizing counter protests on the same day at the same time, if not to try and cause trouble? I've seen one of their emails encouraging people to turn up and counter-protest, and they basically say the EDL ARE Nazi's!
    Which is totally untrue, and only inflame the situation.

    Surely if one group is turning up to hold a protest, then organizing hundreds of UAF and Muslims there to counter-protest is encouraging a clash???!

    When the UAF rioted about the BNP being allowed on Question Time, you didn't see the BNP trying to organize a counter-protest, that would only inflame the situation and lead to trouble.

    In my view, the UAF are just as bad by lying about the EDL, stirring up hatred, then encouraging hundreds of people who've swallowed this line to come out and riot against them.

    The general consensus across police forums is that the EDL are better behaved than the UAF mob, see one such thread:
    http://www.policeoracle.com/forum/fo...D=13043&KW=EDL
    Sorry but what happened in Stoke the other day, OH that's right EDL clashed with SDL so well done there.
    On top of that it was reported that an 11 year old boy had been struck with a glass bottle by the EDL, so another nice win for the EDL there.

    Peaceful protests my arse, all the EDL do is start fights without any real reason but because they read the Sun they are all armchair politicians.
    So from this you may have gained that the EDL are pretty much the equivalent of red necks in America.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    Well than the British public have given up. They have settled for a party whose policy is "develop a peace treaty with Islamic countries so that they can send the Muslims there". If Muslims know that people have resorted to this party, how can you blame them for feeling angered? What happened to petitions and revolutions?



    Yes, if you feel this is the problem than why not argue with the government or is voting the BNP your way of dealing with the problem. Americans are very religious and they are tolerant of Islam. The whole chain of "Islamic terrorism" arguably started in 2001. They still remain tolerant and don't generalise as much as the brits do.



    Yes it’s due to language difficulties but also due to racial tension. If you want I can produce many articles showing ethnic minorities getting beaten up in all white areas and vice versa.
    Yes British people have settled for this party as there is little way of influencing the major parties. The proportion of British people turning to the BNP is probably roughly similar to number of Muslims turning to extremist groups, how can you blame the British people for feeling angered. What happened to petitions and revolutions? We have plenty of petitions, it is not in our political culture to have revolutions due to the Civil War, but how about protests, seeing as they are the method in question

    Americans are tolerant of Islam? Get a grip, go on to MSNBC.com (one of the most liberal American news outlets) and look at the comments on any topic slightly concerning Islam.

    Minorities are getting beaten up due to their high concentrations giving the impression that they are taking over the country, causality again see?
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    Yes British people have settled for this party as there is little way of influencing the major parties. The proportion of British people turning to the BNP is probably roughly similar to number of Muslims turning to extremist groups, how can you blame the British people for feeling angered. What happened to petitions and revolutions? We have plenty of petitions, it is not in our political culture to have revolutions due to the Civil War, but how about protests, seeing as they are the method in question

    Americans are tolerant of Islam? Get a grip, go on to MSNBC.com (one of the most liberal American news outlets) and look at the comments on any topic slightly concerning Islam.

    Minorities are getting beaten up due to their high concentrations giving the impression that they are taking over the country, causality again see?
    Well let’s come to this conclusion: The British public are angered at the rise of Muslim influence in their country and have chosen to move towards BNP and the Muslims have realised this and have moved towards the extremist. Both parties have given up on faith and there is no hope for change and peach between the two. The Muslims will be getting deported in there thousands and the Muslim extremist will resort in more bombings.
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    Americans are tolerant of Islam? Get a grip, go on to MSNBC.com (one of the most liberal American news outlets) and look at the comments on any topic slightly concerning Islam.
    http://www.usatoday.com/news/religio...american_N.htm

    http://www.christian.org.uk/news/bri...urvey-reveals/

    Two statistics, you tell me which one is more tolerant?
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    Well let’s come to this conclusion: The British public are angered at the rise of Muslim influence in their country and have chosen to move towards BNP and the Muslims have realised this and have moved towards the extremist. Both parties have given up on faith and there is no hope for change and peach between the two. The Muslims will be getting deported in there thousands and the Muslim extremist will resort in more bombings.
    How has Islam influenced Britain? In what way?
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    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    Islam does not promote killings or violence for that matter. It stated that killing is a sin, if you kill one person, you kill humanity.
    I think stoning a woman to death and beheading gay people constitues killing and violence.

    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    How has Islam influenced Britain? In what way?
    It has certainly weakened free speech.
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    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    How has Islam influenced Britain? In what way?
    Well I am muslim and I don't think it has. But I am guessing its to do with the mini sharia courts that we get. Also, the jews have one. Double standard me thinks. Thats the british public for you!
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    (Original post by Mr. Orange)
    Bombers aren't Muslim, there is nowhere in Islam where it is said to be ok to bomb people.
    Yes, but Muslims saying that doesn't stop the problem of extremism, does it?
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    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    Their aim? To drive out Islamic extremism. Their weapon? The thugs of Britain's most violent football gangs

    On Platform One at Bolton station a mob of around 100 men punch the air in unison. The chant goes up: 'Muslim bombers, off our streets, Muslim bombers off our streets...'
    Their voices echo loudly and more men suddenly appear; startled passengers move aside. The group march forward waving St George Cross flags and holding up placards. The throng of men around me applaud. A train heading for Glasgow draws up on the opposite platform and the men turn as one, bursting into song: 'Engelaand, Engelaand, Engelaand.'
    Some of the men hide behind balaclavas, others wear black hoodies. A few speak on mobile phones, their hands pressed against their ears to block out the cacophony.
    'It's already kicking off in Manchester. This could be tasty,' shouts one. These are some of the most violent football hooligans in Britain and today they have joined together in an unprecedented show of strength. Standing shoulder to shoulder are notorious gangs - or 'firms' as they are known - such as Cardiff City's Soul Crew, Bolton Wanderers' Cuckoo Boys and Luton Town's Men In Gear.
    The gathering is remarkable, as on a match day these men would be fighting each other. But it is politics that has drawn them together. They are headed for Manchester to support a march by the burgeoning English Defence League.
    The police are here in force, too. 'Take that mask off,' barks a sergeant to one young man. He does so immediately but protests: 'Why are they allowed to wear burkas in public but we're not allowed to cover our faces?'
    'Just do what you're told,' the policeman snaps back.

    'It's always the same these days. One rule for them and another for us. I'm sick of this country,' a man standing next to me says in a West Country accent.
    He draws on a cigarette then flicks it to the ground in disgust. He starts to complain again but when the tannoy announces the arrival of the train to Manchester Piccadilly he raises his hands above his head and starts another favourite.
    'Rule Britannia, Britannia rule the waves... Britons never, never, never...' His companions join in. As the train comes to a halt the crowd surges forward.
    The carriages are almost full so the men pack themselves into the aisles followed by policemen speaking into radios. A group of lads drinking beer at a table eye the new contingent warily.
    One man wearing a baseball cap clocks their fear and reassures them.
    'It's all right lads, nothing to worry about. We're protesting against radical Islam. Come and join us.'
    Further up the carriage another bursts into song.
    'We had joy, we had fun, we had Muslims on the run,' he starts up. Nobody joins in and a couple of his mates tell him to 'shut up' as they point to a woman dressed in a black hijab sitting at a table.
    A man standing close to her is masked and holds a placard. It has a picture of a Muslim woman crying with red blood streaming down her face. 'Sharia law oppresses women!' the slogan reads.
    The rise of the English Defence League has been rapid. Since its formation at the start of the summer the group has organised nearly 20 major protests in Britain's cities, including London, Birmingham, Manchester, Leeds, Luton, Nottingham, Glasgow and Swansea.
    Its leaders are professional and articulate and they claim that the EDL is a peaceful, non-racist organisation. But having spent time with them, there is evidence that this movement has a more disturbing side. There is talk of the need for a 'street army', and there are links with football hooligans and evidence that violent neo-Nazi groups including Combat 18, Blood and Honour and the British Freedom Fighters have been attending demos.
    Violence has erupted at most of the EDL's demonstrations. In total, nearly 200 people have been arrested and an array of weapons has been seized, including knuckledusters, a hammer, a chisel and a bottle of bleach.
    As the EDL gains support across the UK, Muslims have already been targeted in unprovoked attacks. In the worst incident, a mob of 30 white and black youths is said to have surrounded Asian students near City University in central London and attacked them with metal poles, bricks and sticks while shouting racist abuse. Three people - two students and a passer-by who tried to intervene - were stabbed.
    Following the Manchester protest, when 48 people were arrested during street violence, the Bolton Interfaith Council Executive issued a stark warning that race relations were under threat and Communities Secretary John Denham compared the EDL to Oswald Mosley's Union of British Fascists, who ran amok in the Thirties. In response to these fears, the National Extremism Tactical Coordination Unit, a countrywide police team set up to combat domestic extremism, has been investigating the EDL.
    'The concern to me is how groups like this, either willingly or unwillingly, allow themselves to be exploited by very extreme right-wing groups like the National Front and the British Freedom Fighters,' Metropolitan Police chief Sir Paul Stephenson has said.
    I had met the English Defence League for the first time in Luton three weeks before the Manchester demonstration. After several calls, key members agreed to talk on the condition that I did not identify them. We met at a derelict building close to Luton town centre. Eleven men turned up. All wore balaclavas, as they often do to hide their identities, and most had black EDL hoodies with 'Luton Division' written on the back. They'd made placards bearing slogans such as 'Ban the Burka'.
    The group's self-proclaimed leader, who goes by the pseudonym Tommy Robinson, did most of the talking. A father of two, Robinson explained the background to the rise of the movement.
    'For more than a decade now there's been tension in Luton between Muslim youths and whites. We all get on fine - black, white, Indian, Chinese... Everyone does, in fact, apart from these Muslim youths who've become extremely radicalised since the first Gulf War. This is because preachers of hate live in Luton and have been recruiting for radical Islamist groups for years. Our Government does nothing about them so we decided that we'd start protesting"
    Robinson could barely conceal his anger as he explained that the spark for him had been the sight of radical Muslims protesting when soldiers paraded through the town on their regiment's return from Afghanistan in May.
    Following the incident Robinson set up a group called United People of Luton and, after linking up with a Birmingham-based organisation called British Citizens Against Muslim Extremists and another called Casuals United (largely made up of former football hooligans), they realised there was potential for a national movement.
    'We have nothing against Muslims, only those who preach hatred. They are traitors who should be hanged and we'll keep taking to the streets until the Government kicks them out.'
    More than 100 divisions have been set up across Britain and a careful co-ordination means the EDL is becoming efficient and a potential catch-all for every far-right organisation in Britain.
    Robinson admits that he has attended BNP meetings in the past. Another prominent member and administrator of Luton EDL's Facebook group is Davy Cooling, a BNP member. Sean Walsh, an activist for the EDL in Luton, is a member of the BNP's Bedfordshire Facebook group.
    Even within the EDL there are concerns over links to extremists. A former member called Paul Ray recently claimed that the group had been hijacked by BNP activists, including a man from Weston-super-Mare, Chris Renton, who helped set up the EDL website. Ironically, Ray himself has extremist contacts, including a German former neo-Nazi who is friends with Northern Ireland Loyalist Johnny 'Mad Dog' Adair.
    Casuals United was the brainchild of Jeff Marsh, a convicted football hooligan from Cardiff City's Soul Crew, one of the most feared gangs in Britain. Marsh operates behind the scenes, orchestrating activities with both Casuals United and the Welsh Defence League, a sister group of the EDL.
    The public face of Casuals United is another Welshman called Mickey Smith. An avowed football hooligan, he is banned from Cardiff City's football ground. Together, Marsh and Smith organise the 50 or so gangs actively recruiting members across the UK.
    The EDL insists it is separate from Casuals United, but dig a little and it becomes clear they operate hand-in-hand. Joel Titus is a cocky but politically naive 18-year-old Arsenal fan of mixed race. He tells me that the EDL youth division he runs has over 300 members across the UK.
    'We want to hit every town and city in Britain,' he says.
    Titus became involved with the movement through Casuals United. And according to anti-fascism magazine Searchlight, his role is to recruit football hooligans.
    He sticks to the 'peaceful movement' mantra but a text I later receive from him ahead of an EDL demo in London reveals his involvement with the hooligans. It reads: 'Right lads, the "unofficial" meet for the 31st (London) is going to be 12 o'clock at The Hole In The Wall pub just outside Waterloo Station. I will be there just before that. Remember lads were (sic) going as Casuals Utd and if you could obtain a poppy to wear it would make us look good even if we are kicking off. lol. Cheers lads. Joel "Arsenal" Titus.'
    Alarmingly, the EDL is becoming more sophisticated and those orchestrating its activities at the top are far more astute than its foot soldiers. I meet two of the EDL's key figures in a Covent Garden pub - a respectable looking man called Alan Lake, and a man who goes by the moniker 'Kinana'.
    Lake is a 45-year-old computer expert from Highgate, north London who runs a far-right website called Four Freedoms. This summer he contacted the EDL and offered to both fund and advise the movement.
    'Our leaders in this country no longer represent us,' he says.
    Lake's aim is to unite the 'thinkers' and those prepared to take to the streets. He describes this marriage as 'the perfect storm coming together'. Lake says that street violence is not desirable but sometimes inevitable.
    'There are issues when you are dealing with football thugs but what can we do?'
    He criticises fascist organisations, however, and says he will only support the EDL so long as it doesn't associate with the BNP. When I ask about extremists hijacking the movement, he says: 'There are different groups infiltrating and trying to cause rifts by one means or another, or trying to waylay the organisation to different agendas. The intention is to exclude those groups and individuals.'
    These men are outwardly intelligent and their political nous combined with the brawn of the casuals makes them a quasi-political force.
    Britain's neo-Nazis realise this. For Kevin Watmough, leader of the neo-Nazi British People's Party and a former member of the National Front, the rise of the EDL is reminiscent of the Seventies.
    'The protests remind me of the National Front marches, but I wouldn't march with the EDL because they have blacks as supporters,' he told me.
    But other neo-Nazis have joined EDL demos. These include members of Combat 18 and the British Freedom Fighters, who later posted videos of themselves on the internet.
    Watmough lives in Bradford and can recall the 2001 riots, which came about as a result of tensions between whites and Muslims. Bradford, along with Oldham, another tinderbox northern city that witnessed riots in 2001, is a stated target for the EDL and Casuals United in 2010. Tension is likely here and in other towns where the EDL is also promoting spontaneous flash demos and the occupation of building sites for new mosques.
    Professor Matthew Goodwin, an expert on far-right organisations who has advised the Home Office, says that the police are right to monitor the EDL and to take them seriously.
    '(The EDL) is now well-organised and not just a minor irritant. It has become a rallying point for a number of different groups and to have them marching through sensitive areas is a major concern.'
    Communities Minister John Denham has also condemned the rise of the EDL: 'If you look at the types of demonstrations they have organised, the language used and the targets chosen, it looks clear that it's a tactic designed to provoke, to get a response. It's designed to create violence. And we must all make sure this doesn't happen.'

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/mosl...#ixzz0dXrKv9a0

    EDL- Newsnight

    Part 1
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gysMBg5G02Q

    Part 2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxCHgEKWoYo



    As the EDL become more organised and sophisticated.Are they posing a threat to British streets?
    The sole aim, originally was to protest against Islamic Extremism, and in response to Anjem Choudary and Co in Luton during the British Soldiers march.
    Are the EDL just as worse than Islam4UK? Or even worse, as they have used violence, not only according to this article, but also on a facebook group "against edl in Lincoln", and a member who stated a taxi driver was badly injured from members of the EDL in Stoke?

    What are your thoughts?
    To be fair, he has a point! :p:
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    Well let’s come to this conclusion: The British public are angered at the rise of Muslim influence in their country and have chosen to move towards BNP and the Muslims have realised this and have moved towards the extremist. Both parties have given up on faith and there is no hope for change and peach between the two. The Muslims will be getting deported in there thousands and the Muslim extremist will resort in more bombings.
    Much harder to bomb when there is no Muslim community to hide in.
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    (Original post by Greens)
    I think stoning a woman to death and beheading gay people constitues killing and violence.



    It has certainly weakened free speech.
    Islam does not really promote stoning women or beheading gays.

    Islam does state homosexual acts is sinful, just like Judaism, Christianity and every other religion. I fail to see how it is different from those in religion in that sense.
    I personally, know people are gay, they are alright, I don't mind them, It does not cause any difference or offence. Have you heard any muslim in this country making offensive statements or using violence against homosexuals?

    Beheading women, where? That is more culture than religion. It might happen in Somalia for example does not mean it occurs in Turkey, they are both muslim countries. It is more to do with culture. Islam does not promote it but it actually says it should not happen. Islam if anything, supports women in everything. In fact it even provide a chapter, about Mary, Jesus's mother, and urges women to look to up to her and be like her. It talks about respecting women. Where do you get this information?


    I agree in the sense of free speech, I yet to find a muslim who gets offended by christmas etc...
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    Much harder to bomb when there is no Muslim community to hide in.
    Surely a significant amount of these bombers have been 'suicide bombers'.

    There's no need for a dead man to hide. He's done the work he intended to.
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    You know something I don't even blame the vast majority of muslims for this ,the blame lies with the parties of both colours who caused this multicutural mess in the first place. But the lions share of the blame has to go to the Labour Party, who have had allegations made against them in the national press by civil servants and people within their own party ,that they pursued policies of mass immigration not because of some fluffy bunny idea of a multicultural utopia but because of some petty selfish excuse to get one over on the right wing. Thats what comes of placing people who have never left the politics of the student union and their membership of extreme marxist pressure groups behind them in positions of responsibility.

    And now it is rapidly blowing up in their faces,with BNP euro mp's, (I mean seriously......) and the EDL. Expect more of it, from both sides of the political spectrum. And I must laugh at people citing America as somehow being a pillar of tolerance. America never signed up to the multicultural experiment like we did, they had more sense. Do you think they would tolerate half of what our extremist muslims get up to? They would be locked away in federal prisons before they could say allu akbar.And the more useful ones would be getting a one way ticket to gitmo.
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    (Original post by effofex)
    Surely a significant amount of these bombers have been 'suicide bombers'.

    There's no need for a dead man to hide. He's done the work he intended to.
    They need to hide before they bomb, they need to plan, make bombs etc.
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    Much harder to bomb when there is no Muslim community to hide in.
    Nope, quite the opposite. They can know do it without feeling guilty. They know that anyone that dies won't be Muslims so can bomb freely. Your also forgetting holidays and university students.
 
 
 
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