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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    You know something I don't even blame the vast majority of muslims for this ,the blame lies with the parties of both colours who caused this multicutural mess in the first place. But the lions share of the blame has to go to the Labour Party, who have had allegations made against them in the national press by civil servants and people within their own party ,that they pursued policies of mass immigration not because of some fluffy bunny idea of a multicultural utopia but because of some petty selfish excuse to get one over on the right wing. Thats what comes of placing people who have never left the politics of the student union and their membership of extreme marxist pressure groups behind them in positions of responsibility.

    And now it is rapidly blowing up in their faces,with BNP euro mp's, (I mean seriously......) and the EDL. Expect more of it, from both sides of the political spectrum. And I must laugh at people citing America as somehow being a pillar of tolerance. America never signed up to the multicultural experiment like we did, they had more sense. Do you think they would tolerate half of what our extremist muslims get up to? They would be locked away in federal prisons before they could say allu akbar.And the more useful ones would be getting a one way ticket to gitmo.
    Yes.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    Nope, quite the opposite. They can know do it without feeling guilty. They know that anyone that dies won't be Muslims so can bomb freely. Your also forgetting holidays and university students.
    They will be much easier to catch before they can carry out an attack, you're forgetting the British intelligence services.
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    (Original post by Meagz)
    Yes, but Muslims saying that doesn't stop the problem of extremism, does it?
    Yes but what we should try and show these thugs is that these people that they are protesting against are simply murderers and not Muslims.
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    (Original post by Meagz)
    Yes, but Muslims saying that doesn't stop the problem of extremism, does it?
    The extremist problem is the same as the KKK problem of 1924. They were both in a peak time, Muslims are finally realising that they are not acting in the name of Islam and if you want proof I can provide you with some. There is a heavy decline in Muslims supporting extremist. So it kind of does help.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    The extremist problem is the same as the KKK problem of 1924. They were both in a peak time, Muslims are finally realising that they are not acting in the name of Islam and if you want proof I can provide you with some. There is a heavy decline in Muslims supporting extremist. So it kind of does help.
    Where is your evidence for that? Does this correlate with the amount of young Muslims becoming indoctrinated and turned into Jihadists?
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    They will be much easier to catch before they can carry out an attack, you're forgetting the British intelligence services.
    Hijacking a plane and crashing it in a building, pretty simple. They can plan it in another country.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    Hijacking a plane and crashing it in a building, pretty simple. They can plan it in another country.
    Several of those have been foiled recently, you can just shoot a plane down if it goes off flight path suspicously, or take the plot down in the planning phase.
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    You know something I don't even blame the vast majority of muslims for this ,the blame lies with the parties of both colours who caused this multicutural mess in the first place. But the lions share of the blame has to go to the Labour Party, who have had allegations made against them in the national press by civil servants and people within their own party ,that they pursued policies of mass immigration not because of some fluffy bunny idea of a multicultural utopia but because of some petty selfish excuse to get one over on the right wing. Thats what comes of placing people who have never left the politics of the student union and their membership of extreme marxist pressure groups behind them in positions of responsibility.

    And now it is rapidly blowing up in their faces,with BNP euro mp's, (I mean seriously......) and the EDL. Expect more of it, from both sides of the political spectrum. And I must laugh at people citing America as somehow being a pillar of tolerance. America never signed up to the multicultural experiment like we did, they had more sense. Do you think they would tolerate half of what our extremist muslims get up to? They would be locked away in federal prisons before they could say allu akbar.And the more useful ones would be getting a one way ticket to gitmo.
    Define muslim extermist? Like do you mean someone who supports terrisom or someone who commits terriosim.
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    (Original post by MaceyThe)
    What's your view on the UAF organizing counter protests on the same day at the same time, if not to try and cause trouble? I've seen one of their emails encouraging people to turn up and counter-protest, and they basically say the EDL ARE Nazi's!
    Which is totally untrue, and only inflame the situation.

    Surely if one group is turning up to hold a protest, then organizing hundreds of UAF and Muslims there to counter-protest is encouraging a clash???!

    When the UAF rioted about the BNP being allowed on Question Time, you didn't see the BNP trying to organize a counter-protest, that would only inflame the situation and lead to trouble.

    In my view, the UAF are just as bad by lying about the EDL, stirring up hatred, then encouraging hundreds of people who've swallowed this line to come out and riot against them.

    The general consensus across police forums is that the EDL are better behaved than the UAF mob, see one such thread:
    http://www.policeoracle.com/forum/fo...D=13043&KW=EDL
    The UAF (and other groups) were extremely well behaved and very far away from Hanley where the chaos was. The EDL didn't get chance to go near them and the police have applauded the good behaviour of the UAF which included talks, peaceful marching and lovely signs such as "OATCAKES NOT RACISM". Their counter march was entirely peaceful and agreed with the police and went off without a single problem but for the occasional stray BNP and EDL members shouting abuse.

    On the other hand we have the EDL who managed to get themselves arrested, destroyed property and attacked the police force. If the UAF had been there or not there would have been the same trouble.

    The UAF stirred up hatred? Seriously? They had guest speakers talking against what was going on but there was little hatred past condemning the fact these idiots that were rampaging through a city that didn't want them. They had teadrinking and general happiness going on and no attacking each other or the EDL in any way other than words. Compare that to the racist taunts and general thuggery and it's pretty easy to see who are the real morons on this case.
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    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    Islam does not really promote stoning women or beheading gays.
    As I have said in another thread, if what you are saying is true, then you have to accept that the 'Muslim world' is corrupt and that Islam is powerless. I say this because there are millions and millions of people in the 'Muslim world' who disagree with you i.e. they genuinely (and, wrongfully, in your opinion) believe that Islam demands the stoning of women and the beheading of gays. This is evidence of corruption, yes? And what is more, this corruption exposes Islam's powerlessness. It is powerless because it cannot unite Muslims. There are huge, fundamental differences of opinion in the Muslim world on an array of issues.

    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    Have you heard any muslim in this country making offensive statements or using violence against homosexuals?
    I can't think of a case off the top of my head but there should be no dubt that the threat to both gay rights and womens rights in the United Kingdom will rise as the Muslm population rises. One only needs to look at countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Somalia and Pakistan to see what happens to these groups, among others, when Muslims govern.

    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    Beheading women, where? That is more culture than religion. It might happen in Somalia for example does not mean it occurs in Turkey, they are both muslim countries. It is more to do with culture. Islam does not promote it but it actually says it should not happen. Islam if anything, supports women in everything. In fact it even provide a chapter, about Mary, Jesus's mother, and urges women to look to up to her and be like her. It talks about respecting women. Where do you get this information?
    I get this info from your fellow Muslims. The other Muslim poster Diaz89, for example, posted a comment a couple of minutes ago that Islam demands the stoning of women and the beheadings of gays. ( Also, Turkey is a relatively OK place but I think that is largely because it is not governed by Islamic law.)

    (Original post by 4G_dollars)
    I agree in the sense of free speech, I yet to find a muslim who gets offended by christmas etc...
    What about, however, the huge controversy regarding, for example, The Satanic Verses, the Danish cartoons, the Sudanese teddy bear and et cetera?
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    (Original post by Greens)
    Actually, they are being stoned and beheaded for no reason because having sex outside or marriage or gay sex is not a valid reason to take away someones life. And, even if you are twisted enough to think that it is an appropriate punishment, you have to stop claiming that Islam opposes killing and violence because it clearly does not.
    Certain societies have different values and laws. In a Muslim society, homosexuality and adultery are an abhorrent sin whom warrant such a punishment. However it must be made clear, for such a punishment to happen several criteria have to met, which I presume you already know of. Secondly, it should me made clear no one forced the adulteress or whomever to engage in the acts they did. The blame falls firmly on their indiscretion. However the purpose of the law as historically applied was not to rid society of homosexuals and adulterers. Instead it was intended to be as a deterent.

    As the conservative Islamic scholar Muhammad ibn Adam al-Kawthari writes:

    Spoiler:
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    One should always keep in mind the objective and spirit of Shariah concerning the various legal punishments. The idea is not to enforce the punishment and make people suffer; rather the objective is to prevent harm, corruption and immorality in the society. Thus, legal punishments act as deterrents more than actually get people punished…

    An example of this which comes to mind is that we see speed cameras being placed on many roads and streets (especially here in the UK!) in order to deter people from speeding in their vehicles. The idea behind these speed cameras is not to catch people speeding, rather to prevent people from speeding and causing accidents. If the aim was to catch people speeding, there would be no warning signs indicating that a camera is present. However, we see that whenever a speed camera is placed, many warnings are given that beware this road has a speed camera . Many of the times, the camera is not even in operation, hence, the idea is to stop people speeding rather than catch and punish them.

    The same is with the various legal punishments prescribed by Shariah, in that they are prescribed to prevent people from committing unlawful actions and corrupting the society, yet the rules and conditions for a legal punishment to be enforced are so stringent that very rarely would an individual be punished. The legal punishment is considered a deterrent, but if an individual did involve him/herself in some unlawful activity, the objective now is not to get the individual punished rather to save him/her from the punishment.


    He goes further to say,

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    The Imam should try his best to avoid the legal punishment… This (trying to avert a legal punishment) has been explicitly mentioned in one Hadith. Sayyida Aisha narrates that the Messenger of Allah said:

    “Keep the Muslims away from punishments as much as possible. If there is any way out for an offender to escape punishment, acquit him. It is better for a judge to make an error in acquittal than in conviction.” (Sunan Tirmidhi, no: 1424)



    It is the truth. As the writer Ian McEwan has said, 'we are not entirely free to talk about Islam anymore... to be really frank about islam would cause you to look a little nervously behind you'.
    Not necessarily, there are many other people you cannot offend in this country and Europe.
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    (Original post by Meagz)
    Where is your evidence for that? Does this correlate with the amount of young Muslims becoming indoctrinated and turned into Jihadists?
    Pakistan (65%) - 2004 survey- That is the percentage of people supporting the Osama bin laden/Al qadea

    Pakistan (33%) Aug 2007 - That is the percentage of Pakistanis that expressed support for al-Qaida

    Pakistan (18%) Jan 2008 - That is the number of percentage that support him.

    Jordan (55%) 2005 - Number of support for Al qadea/ Terriost organsitions

    Jordan (29%) 2008/2009 - Number of support for Al qadea/ Terriost organsitions

    6% of British Muslims supported the London bombings

    http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pi...ricara/591.php

    http://lynch.foreignpolicy.com/posts...aeda_or_the_us

    (http://pewresearch.org/pubs/1445/lit...slim-americans

    The only survey of poll of young muslims supporting terriosim is:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...extremism.html

    What do you think, increasing or decreasing?
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    (Original post by fire2burn)
    The EDL on their recent outing to Stoke really showed the Muslims who's boss what with smashing the rear windows of an old ladies car, having punch ups between the SDL and EDL, and dropping pint glasses all over the street. Real sophisticated bunch that lot...

    Spoiler:
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    And what's worse is that whilst they were in Nottingham they had the audacity to publicly urinate over the cities historic buildings. Mighty defenders of Britain's heritage...

    Just one car, smashed up by jealous individuals. Other than that, there were only 15 arrests out of 3000 protestors, the media just take the worst chav picture they can find, and slant coverage against EDF. These pictures are singled out because they don't look too favourable, they are plenty of others which will show that the march was peaceful and the thugs were the vast minority of EDF protestors.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    What do you think, increasing or decreasing?
    It's all well and good for people to oppose it, but we'll have to wait and see if actually has an effect.
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    (Original post by jonjon123)
    Define muslim extermist? Like do you mean someone who supports terrisom or someone who commits terriosim.

    I don't just associate muslims with terrorism. We have had Irish terrorists in the past. My definition of an extremist muslim is one who seeks to convert non believers to Allah,non believers who refuse must be killed. who wants to turn Britain into a state with shariah law, those who protest with signs talking about beheading those who speak against Islam, those who wanted Salman Rushdie dead, who hold signs making threatening comments towards Israel or America. Those who advocate war and terrorism against Israel, America or our own country. Those who make insulting remarks about British women.

    The problem I feel is many muslims , seem to resent for instance our friendly relations with Israel or America. Thats fine to disagree with our foreign policy but ,when they start advocating violence I really feel it's time they either left this country for somewhere where their beliefs were tolerated or were incarcerated.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    xxx
    That is meant to be a deterrant is not good enough, in my opinion. Either way, I accept that different cultures have different values; however, you should not, if you think Islam demands the execution of adulterers and gay people, then go on to claim that Islam opposes killing and violence because you are contradicting yourself.

    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Not necessarily, there are many other people you cannot offend in this country and Europe.
    Not sure if you remember but a Somali man was recently charged with attempted murder because he broke into the house of one of the Danish cartoonists with an axe in his hand. Now, I beg you, please name me ONE other group that, if one was to offend, he or she could expect a member of that group to break into your house with axe and kill you. Gays? Catholics? Buddhists?
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    (Original post by Greens)
    As I have said in another thread, if what you are saying is true, then you have to accept that the 'Muslim world' is corrupt and that Islam is powerless. I say this because there are millions and millions of people in the 'Muslim world' who disagree with you i.e. they genuinely (and, wrongfully, in your opinion) believe that Islam demands the stoning of women and the beheading of gays. This is evidence of corruption, yes? And what is more, this corruption exposes Islam's powerlessness. It is powerless because it cannot unite Muslims. There are huge, fundamental differences of opinion in the Muslim world on an array of issues.



    I can't think of a case off the top of my head but there should be no dubt that the threat to both gay rights and womens rights in the United Kingdom will rise as the Muslm population rises. One only needs to look at countries such as Iran, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Somalia and Pakistan to see what happens to these groups, among others, when Muslims govern.



    I get this info from your fellow Muslims. The other Muslim poster Diaz89, for example, posted a comment a couple of minutes ago that Islam demands the stoning of women and the beheadings of gays. ( Also, Turkey is a relatively OK place but I think that is largely because it is not governed by Islamic law.)



    What about, however, the huge controversy regarding, for example, The Satanic Verses, the Danish cartoons, the Sudanese teddy bear and et cetera?

    You got it one. Islam, today is powerless, in the sense that muslims today are corrupted; they don't even follow it even in the muslim countries. I am not saying I am the perfect muslim, far from it. But I do believe in Islam, and try to adhere to the rules. What I see with these suicide bombers etc...they are not muslim, they do not follow Islam. They are deluded. People have tarnised the name of Islam and made it something that it isn't. If people actually read the Koran, you realise it is about peace, equality etc...

    Countries, like Somalia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, they should not do it. But they do, and it is sad. But then non-Islamic countries like India, China do the same, have the same stance againsts gays and lesbians.

    Islam has never promoted any activities. Islam when talking about crime, urges people to forgive, and to provide opportunities so the person can better themselves. Beheadings and stonings are meant to be the last resort, it happens if you did something wrong like murder, theft etc... I seen articles call for such actions here in the UK especially with the recent case of where a 10 year and 11 year old tortured and killed a young boy.

    In regards to the Danish cartoons and satanic verses, it is same as Anjem Choudary and co with the soldiers. Both are disgusting. In regards to the teddy bear, I can see why, but I do think it was pathetic and pretty stupid. I don't think it was offensive in anyway.
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    (Original post by Meagz)
    It's all well and good for people to oppose it, but we'll have to wait and see if actually has an effect.
    Well, tell me what would you like the Muslim community to do. Don't say protest because as I said they are at their peak and many Muslims will be battered because of this modern Islamic view they hold.
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    I don't just associate muslims with terrorism. We have had Irish terrorists in the past. My definition of an extremist muslim is one who seeks to convert non believers to Allah,non believers who refuse must be killed. who wants to turn Britain into a state with shariah law, those who protest with signs talking about beheading those who speak against Islam, those who wanted Salman Rushdie dead, who hold signs making threatening comments towards Israel or America. Those who advocate war and terrorism against Israel, America or our own country. Those who make insulting remarks about British women.

    The problem I feel is many muslims , seem to resent for instance our friendly relations with Israel or America. Thats fine to disagree with our foreign policy but ,when they start advocating violence I really feel it's time they either left this country for somewhere where their beliefs were tolerated or were incarcerated.
    Israel is the only issue I can see. It works both ways their government bomb some terrorist areas and the terrorist bomb them.
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    (Original post by Liquidus Zeromus)
    Just one car, smashed up by jealous individuals.

    You get 1st prize in the contest for posts that are tragic failures.
    Where Muslim miscreants are concerned you are only too happy to imply collective guilt. But your nazi chums are all individuals.

    :rofl:

    The EDL seem to have more than their fair share of such individuals :
    http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.com/201...is-of-edl.html

    http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/Englis...-begin-to-show


    Still they are not all bad - they were singing "Harry Roberts is my friend .. he kills coppers" whilst they tried to topple a van onto a WPC.

    Hopefully, when they actually manage to off a cop KKKelway and *all* his mates will go down under the "common purpose" doctrine.
 
 
 
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