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“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” watch

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    (Original post by Casse)
    Niether does the US. The predator strikes in Northern Pakistan have killed only about 30 insurgents but also 600 civilians according to one news report. Similarly a million civilian casulties in Iraq since the invasion. If we want to count civilian death tolls, NATO has killed more than the terrorists.
    1M is done by ORB survey... A credibility of a survey is always questionable. Besides 1M is a overall toll regardless of which side caused the casualty, considering the fact that suicide bombers take out 10-100 people in a go.
    According to one news report... how goddamn accurate are news reports... tell me? regardless of what the count is, with the insurgent wearing civilian clothes how exactly can you identify a sympathiser and a terrorist? If the US didnt really discriminate between a fighter and a civilian then cities and towns in both Iraq and Afghanistan wouldve turned to dust by now.
    tell me which war did not have any colateral damage, or civilian casualty on it?
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    As far as I'm concerned, anyone who harms civilians in order to intimidate is a terrorist, it doesn't matter what their cause is.
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    Justified according to whom? You?

    According to international law, indiscriminate attacks against a civilian population- which the UN's Fact Finding Mission found Israel to be guilty of- is illegal.

    Have you read the Goldstone Report?
    The Israeli Army does not deliberately target civillian areas.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    Israel targets Hamas - the people who wage violence against Palestinians as well as Israelis.
    I'm aware they target Hamas, I'm also aware that if civilians get in the way they continue the attack regardless. Why is it ok for Israeli attacks to accidently kill civilians but not for NATOs? They restrict the supplies that can enter Gaza and they hinder commercial fishing in Gaza.

    As far as the UN is concerned Israel (and Hamas) have committed war crimes. In my (non-legal) opinion, the restrictions on Gaza's borders is a war crime - collective punishment of civilians.
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    ******* terrorists.

    every single one of them deserves to be castrated then choked with their own dicks. *******.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    The Israeli Army does not deliberately target civillian areas.
    Yes, it does. And I'm typing this bit in bold to prove it.

    Israel admitted to imposing a siege on Gaza in order to dampen support for Hamas. This constitutes collective punishment. This is illegal under international law. This is an example of Israel deliberately targeting civilians.

    That's before we even go into the warfare.
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    Mujahideen isn't fighting for freedom.
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    I'm aware they target Hamas, I'm also aware that if civilians get in the way they continue the attack regardless. Why is it ok for Israeli attacks to accidently kill civilians but not for NATOs? They restrict the supplies that can enter Gaza and they hinder commercial fishing in Gaza.

    As far as the UN is concerned Israel (and Hamas) have committed war crimes. In my (non-legal) opinion, the restrictions on Gaza's borders is a war crime - collective punishment of civilians.
    The restrictions are not collective punishment. Israel is merely blocking its borders.
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    Yes, it does. And I'm typing this bit in bold to prove it.

    Israel admitted to imposing a siege on Gaza in order to dampen support for Hamas. This constitutes collective punishment. This is illegal under international law. This is an example of Israel deliberately targeting civilians.

    That's before we even go into the warfare.
    It helps, doesn't it?

    I have also emboldened the reason for the siege. I think that's enough reason, don't you?
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    Terrorism means to use terror as a political weapon.
    therefore, a 'terrorist,' is one who uses such tactics, whether this is Hamas, the Maquis in WWII France, or the United States with "shock and awe" tactics.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    The restrictions are not collective punishment. Israel is merely blocking its borders.
    And blocking its borders is collective punishment. Would you not call destroying a civilians house, then refusing to let them get materials to rebuild it punishment?

    EDIT: Just did a quick search on it. Again, the UN have called the blockade collective punishment, and "likely a war crime and crime against humanity" recommending Israel to be referred to the international criminal court.
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    Justified according to whom? You?

    According to international law, indiscriminate attacks against a civilian population- which the UN's Fact Finding Mission found Israel to be guilty of- is illegal.

    Have you read the Goldstone Report?
    justified according to who? not whom? what is goldstone report?
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    The restrictions are not collective punishment. Israel is merely blocking its borders.
    What? Are you being serious? Restricting food, aid, medicine, building materials from getting in, having decimated Gaza and its infrastructural elements (one of the world's most densely populated areas) during a 22-day assault before that isn't collective punishment?

    (Original post by JakePearson)
    It helps, doesn't it?

    I have also emboldened the reason for the siege. I think that's enough reason, don't you?
    Erm, no I don't. Neither does the UN. Neither does international law. Neither does International Human Rights Law. Neither did the Goldstone Report.

    I think you should keep on typing. The more people see ridiculous, inhumane posts like yours, the more the support for the Palestinian people will continue to grow, I think.
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    (Original post by Tut.exe)
    1M is done by ORB survey... A credibility of a survey is always questionable. Besides 1M is a overall toll regardless of which side caused the casualty, considering the fact that suicide bombers take out 10-100 people in a go.
    According to one news report... how goddamn accurate are news reports... tell me? regardless of what the count is, with the insurgent wearing civilian clothes how exactly can you identify a sympathiser and a terrorist? If the US didnt really discriminate between a fighter and a civilian then cities and towns in both Iraq and Afghanistan wouldve turned to dust by now.
    tell me which war did not have any colateral damage, or civilian casualty on it?
    There have been many surveys done and the death toll figure lies between 600,000 and 1 million. Regardless of the exact number, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died due to this act of aggression.

    Saddam was ruthless dictator but at least under him there was stability and order. The suicide attacks only started after Nato invaded as an act of resistance against the occupation. If the West left Iraq alone and did not begin their oil-grabbing war then these deaths could have been avoided. Whether you like it or not, it is directly and indirectly the fault of NATO for the mass civilian casulties in Iraq. It was NATO who started the whole chain-reaction off.
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    And blocking its borders is collective punishment. Would you not call destroying a civilians house, then refusing to let them get materials to rebuild it punishment?
    Gaza has a border with Egypt. Care to lambast the Egyptian government for collective punishment?

    Israel is merely closing their borders (which, by the way, has reduced suicide bombings by a whole 100%) and are letting Gazans live their lives. We are not punishing them, nor are we helping them.
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    What? Are you being serious? Restricting food, aid, medicine, building materials from getting in, having decimated Gaza and its infrastructural elements (one of the world's most densely populated areas) during a 22-day assault before that isn't collective punishment?
    1. Hamas terrorise the people of Gaza into giving up their supplies.
    2. Gaza has a border with Egypt.
    3. Care to explain why Egypt (and, come to think of it, all Arab governments) aren't taking in Palestinian refugees? Because it's too important to them that they make the situation worse for Palestinians in order to advance their ideology of the destruction of the State of Israel.
    4. We all know that terrorism against innocent civillians is the ultimate form of collective punishment. Every Israeli - regardless of his or her support for various Israeli government policies - is targeted for death just for being Israeli or Jewish. Yet those who support Palestinian terrorism complain most loudly when Gaza is blockaded as an economic deterrent against those who are terrorists.

    (Original post by Ascient)
    Erm, no I don't. Neither does the UN. Neither does international law. Neither does International Human Rights Law. Neither did the Goldstone Report.

    I think you should keep on typing. The more people see ridiculous, inhumane posts like yours, the more the support for the Palestinian people will continue to grow, I think.
    (Original post by PeeWeeDan)
    -
    I want PeeWeeDan to try and explain this, I know he can better than me.

    In the meantime, if supporting Israeli citizens over Hamas and calling for the destruction of terrorist groups who target Israel just because it is the Jewish state raises support for Palestinian terrorists, then people are stupid.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    Gaza has a border with Egypt. Care to lambast the Egyptian government for collective punishment?

    Israel is merely closing their borders (which, by the way, has reduced suicide bombings by a whole 100%) and are letting Gazans live their lives. We are not punishing them, nor are we helping them.
    Israel are pretty much forcing Egypt to keep them closed but yes, I will also criticise Egypt as they shouldn't give in so easily (even though I wouldn't be surprised if Israel invaded and took control of that border).

    And no, they are not merely closing their borders. They control Gazan airspace - not and Israeli border - and perhaps vitally, Gazan waters (again not an Israeli border). They stop fishing boats going any further than 3 miles off shore - when several reports have stated they need to go further to get a decent amount of fish - which has resulted in a collapse of the fishing industry. Surely not letting people leave their country is imprisonment?

    You seem to forget that the reason Gazan civilians need so much food and medicine aid is because Israel have decimated their economy.
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    Both points are correct.

    Terrorists fight, generally speaking, due to some kind of grievance. The IRA did, ETA do, Al Qaeda do. So in a sense, they are fighting for some kind of freedom/rights. Killing innocent persons is obviously wrong, but I guess terrorism also springs up from desperation too, so in the terrorists minds it is justified.
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    You can't seriously think Hitlers invasion of Europe (and Japans subsequent support) is comparable to Americas invasion of Iraq?

    Yes, its controversial and I was highly against it, but the invasion of Iraq was at least partially to help the Iraqi civilians being oppressed by their dictator - and I'm pretty sure Iraqi's are in support of US troops being there - despite "a million" casualties.
    No of course not, I was just quoting an article I read the other day and trying to make conversation. But I still feel like the American invasion of Iraq is unjustifiable.

    Anyhow, my main question is really about the Mujahideen. Do you consider them to be terrorists or freedom fighters, and why? I beieve Reagen called them "freedom fighters".
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    Israel are pretty much forcing Egypt to keep them closed but yes, I will also criticise Egypt as they shouldn't give in so easily (even though I wouldn't be surprised if Israel invaded and took control of that border).

    And no, they are not merely closing their borders. They control Gazan airspace - not and Israeli border - and perhaps vitally, Gazan waters (again not an Israeli border). They stop fishing boats going any further than 3 miles off shore - when several reports have stated they need to go further to get a decent amount of fish - which has resulted in a collapse of the fishing industry. Surely not letting people leave their country is imprisonment?

    You seem to forget that the reason Gazan civilians need so much food and medicine aid is because Israel have decimated their economy.
    As I said above, we all know that terrorism against innocent civillians is the ultimate form of collective punishment. Every Israeli - regardless of his or her support for various Israeli government policies - is targeted for death just for being Israeli or Jewish. Yet those who support Palestinian terrorism complain most loudly when Gaza is blockaded as an economic deterrent against those who are terrorists.
 
 
 
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