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“One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter” watch

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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    1. Hamas terrorise the people of Gaza into giving up their supplies.
    2. Gaza has a border with Egypt.
    3. Care to explain why Egypt (and, come to think of it, all Arab governments) aren't taking in Palestinian refugees? Because it's too important to them that they make the situation worse for Palestinians in order to advance their ideology of the destruction of the State of Israel.





    I want PeeWeeDan to try and explain this, I know he can better than me.

    In the meantime, if supporting Israeli citizens over Hamas and calling for the destruction of terrorist groups who target Israel just because it is the Jewish state raises support for Palestinian terrorists, then people are stupid.
    Don't try and spin this. I haven't shown any more support for Hamas than you have shown support for Israeli extremists living in settlements in occupied territories attacking Palestinians.
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    Don't try and spin this. I haven't shown any more support for Hamas than you have shown support for Israeli extremists living in settlements in occupied territories attacking Palestinians.
    All I'm doing is explaining why Israel has blockaded Gaza. Hamas.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    As I said above, we all know that terrorism against innocent civillians is the ultimate form of collective punishment. Every Israeli - regardless of his or her support for various Israeli government policies - is targeted for death just for being Israeli or Jewish. Yet those who support Palestinian terrorism complain most loudly when Gaza is blockaded as an economic deterrent against those who are terrorists.
    I guess you could call it collective punishment.

    I really wish you would stop being blinded by your unwavering support for Israel. I've already stated Hamas commit war crimes and that I don't support them whatsoever.

    Please stop your slander. I haven't seen any posts on this thread justifying or supporting Hamas actions against Israel. The reasons I don't complain about them as much are a) they are a terrorist organisation and Israel is supposed to be a responsible, democratic country, and b) Israeli retaliation against Palestinans is far in excess of Hamas' actions against Israelis - causing far greater death and destruction.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    1. Hamas terrorise the people of Gaza into giving up their supplies.
    2. Gaza has a border with Egypt.
    3. Care to explain why Egypt (and, come to think of it, all Arab governments) aren't taking in Palestinian refugees? Because it's too important to them that they make the situation worse for Palestinians in order to advance their ideology of the destruction of the State of Israel.
    The Arab states are pathetic. That much is beyond dispute. However, this has nothing to do with the Arab states or with the refugee problem- we're talking about Gazans here. Gaza is their home and that's where they want to and are entitled to stay. Egypt's actions are at the behest of the US and Israel. You're extremely naive if you think otherwise. The main point is that the legality (lack thereof) of the siege is beyond doubt. It is illegal and it is collective punishment. It is punishing the Palestinians and if you knew anything about the siutation you would know that. Why don't you bother to read the reports by the UN? Or by Amnesty International? Or by Oxfam? This is why:

    I want PeeWeeDan to try and explain this, I know he can better than me.
    Because you're not actually interested in finding out the truth. Instead, you're interested in an explanation which concurs with your own prejudices. In your mind, Israel is definitely in the right and you just want someone to prove it for you.

    I don't think I'll bother arguing with you any more because your mindset isn't conducive to any sort of constructive dialogue. Perhaps if you read the official reports and still feel the same way, come back to me and we can discuss the matter then.

    EDIT:
    (Original post by callum9999)
    I really wish you would stop being blinded by your unwavering support for Israel.
    This.
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    I guess you could call it collective punishment.

    I really wish you would stop being blinded by your unwavering support for Israel. I've already stated Hamas commit war crimes and that I don't support them whatsoever.

    Please stop your slander. I haven't seen any posts on this thread justifying or supporting Hamas actions against Israel. The reasons I don't complain about them as much are a) they are a terrorist organisation and Israel is supposed to be a responsible, democratic country, and b) Israeli retaliation against Palestinans is far in excess of Hamas' actions against Israelis - causing far greater death and destruction.
    Again, I am not saying that you support Hamas! I am explaining why Israel has blockaded Gaza.
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    It depends. Civilians do economically and socially contribute to an institution freedom fighters see as oppressive - surely they are then fair game. It's arguable that without the support of the people a government couldn't take away another countries freedom, so surely a true freedom fighter fights everything that upholds the oppression. Like cutting away all the roots of trees, instead of chopping through the trunk.

    e.g. if the Labour government illegally chose to retain my DNA (the governments DNA database was found to be illegal in the UN court of human rights), surely the people who voted Labour contributed to this oppression, so are fair game.

    If I was a peaceful Afghan, and US drones killed my innocent family and UK soldiers burned down my poppy field (my only source of income) every single person who contributed to that oppression could be described as a barrier for freedom.

    Princeton Wordweb describes a terrorist as "a radical who employs terror as a political weapon" - now if I was an Afghan I wouldn't call myself a radical, I;d say I was fighting for my freedom. Many Afghans in a similar situation would agree with me. So I agree, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    The Arab states are pathetic. That much is beyond dispute. However, this has nothing to do with the Arab states or with the refugee problem- we're talking about Gazans here. Gaza is their home and that's where they want to and are entitled to stay. Egypt's actions are at the behest of the US and Israel. You're extremely naive if you think otherwise. The main point is that the legality (lack thereof) of the siege is beyond doubt. It is illegal and it is collective punishment. It is punishing the Palestinians and if you knew anything about the siutation you would know that. Why don't you bother to read the reports by the UN? Or by Amnesty International? Or by Oxfam? This is why:



    Because you're not actually interested in finding out the truth. Instead, you're interesting in an explanation which concurs with your own prejudices. In your mind, Israel is definitely in the right and you just want someone to prove it for you.

    I don't think I'll bother arguing with you any more because your mindset isn't conducive to any sort of constructive dialogue. Perhaps if you read the official reports and still feel the same way, come back to me and we can discuss the matter then.
    Fine by me. I'm not that interested in your narrow-minded, anti-Israeli nonsense either. I quoted PeeWeeDan because he lives in Israel and knows more than me about it. Please try to realise that there are people on both sides in this fight.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    All I'm doing is explaining why Israel has blockaded Gaza. Hamas.
    No you're not, you are calling anyone critising the blockade supporters of Palestinian terrorism. EDIT: I see you have clarified you are not now, but several of your responses refers to criticism by people as "supporting Palestinian terrorism".

    Although I am still hugely against it, I can see a justification in banning certain building materials (and obviously weapons etc.). What I cannot see any justification for is destroying the fishing industry and confiscating food, paper, pencils, crayons and wheelchairs from aid agencies trying to give them to the Palestinian civilians. What are they going to do with crayons? Even if they were machetes, Israeli soldiers would shoot them before they got anywhere near them.

    Another point to add is last year, the Israeli cabinet ordered the blockade to be lifted on all food items. However, the IDF department incharge of the blockeade refused to accept the order and continued to reject food convoys.
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    (Original post by callum9999)
    No you're not, you are calling anyone critising the blockade supporters of Palestinian terrorism. EDIT: I see you have clarified you are not now, but several of your responses refers to criticism by people as "supporting Palestinian terrorism".

    Although I am still hugely against it, I can see a justification in banning certain building materials (and obviously weapons etc.). What I cannot see any justification for is destroying the fishing industry and confiscating food, paper, pencils, crayons and wheelchairs from aid agencies trying to give them to the Palestinian civilians. What are they going to do with crayons? Even if they were machetes, Israeli soldiers would shoot them before they got anywhere near them.

    Another point to add is last year, the Israeli cabinet ordered the blockade to be lifted on all food items. However, the IDF department incharge of the blockeade refused to accept the order and continued to reject food convoys.
    I see. I do not realise why there is a blockade on food, paper, pencils, crayons or wheelchairs either. It's stupid.

    Also, the IDF department you mentioned should follow the orders of the government. What they are doing is wrong.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    Fine by me. I'm not that interested in your narrow-minded, anti-Israeli nonsense either. I quoted PeeWeeDan because he lives in Israel and knows more than me about it. Please try to realise that there are people on both sides in this fight.
    I don't see how I'm the one being narrow-minded when hitherto you're not even allowing for the thought that Israel may possibly be doing wrong to even enter your mind.

    I've debated with PeeWeeDan before. He does indeed know a lot, but he can't actually change facts. And the fact of the matter is that Israel has imposed a callous siege on Gaza which constitutes collective punishment and is illegal under international law. If the definition of terrorism is punishing a civilian population to further political aims, then Israel is a state-terrorist. It is punishing the Gazan civilians to further its political aim of eradicating Hamas. I don't really care whether it's PeeWeeDan or Benyamin Netanyahu that's replying to this post, they cannot change that fact.
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    I don't see how I'm the one being narrow-minded when hitherto you're not even allowing for the thought that Israel may possibly be doing wrong to even enter your mind.

    I've debated with PeeWeeDan before. He does indeed know a lot, but he can't actually change facts. And the fact of the matter is that Israel has imposed a callous siege on Gaza which constitutes collective punishment and is illegal under international law. If the definition of terrorism is punishing a civilian population to further political aims, then Israel is a state-terrorist. I don't really care whether it's PeeWeeDan or Benyamin Netanyahu that's replying to this post, they cannot change that fact.
    If you want to believe international law is always just only for the reason that it is international law, then do so. But according to my own morals, the "collective punishment" is justified.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    I see. I do not realise why there is a blockade on food, paper, pencils, crayons or wheelchairs either. It's stupid.

    Also, the IDF department you mentioned should follow the orders of the government. What they are doing is wrong.
    I wouldn't be surprised if someone high up in government are telling them to do that (maybe even the cabinet in secret). If the Israeli government has lost even just a little control over the IDF - then that could be quite dangerous.

    I glad we've come to a common agreement though! I would also add that construction materials should be allowed to enter for projects solely under the control of respected agencies like the Red Cross and the UN. Apparently the UN has just given up and scrapped its reconstruction efforts while the Red Cross is sending people to gather scrap from houses destroyed by Israeli missiles. Apparently, under international law these agencies can be prosecuted for helping terrorists should they help Hamas in anyway and they are willing to abide by that.
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    Freedom fighters don't hit civilian targets.
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    If you want to believe international law is always just only for the reason that it is international law, then do so. But according to my own morals, the "collective punishment" is justified.
    What kind of morals tell you it's okay to punish a 1.5million population because of the actions of a few? To deny them the most basic provisions. Let's not forget that these actions are also largely the result of illegal occupation of Palestinian territories since 1967.

    If one person in your class swore at a teacher, would your morals tell you it was okay for the Head to ban you all from having an education?

    This idea of an arbitrary moral code that conflicts with international law is also hugely debatable. It seems like a concerted effort to place Israel's actions within moral boundaries, when clearly they lie outside of them. You're also opening a massive can of worms for yourself and the pro-Israel stance altogether when you choose to turn your back on international law...

    For your reference, the World Health Organisation's (WHO) report on Gaza and also the Oxfam report on Gaza
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    (Original post by Ascient)
    What kind of morals tell you it's okay to punish a 1.5million population because of the actions of a few? To deny them the most basic provisions. Let's not forget that these actions are also largely the result of illegal occupation of Palestinian territories since 1967.
    Israel legally won the Palestinian Territories in a defensive war with Jordan and Egypt in 1967. The territories were also offered by Israel to Palestine to set up a Palestinian state in 2000 - they were rejected.
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    (Original post by Casse)
    There have been many surveys done and the death toll figure lies between 600,000 and 1 million. Regardless of the exact number, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died due to this act of aggression.

    Saddam was ruthless dictator but at least under him there was stability and order. The suicide attacks only started after Nato invaded as an act of resistance against the occupation. If the West left Iraq alone and did not begin their oil-grabbing war then these deaths could have been avoided. Whether you like it or not, it is directly and indirectly the fault of NATO for the mass civilian casulties in Iraq. It was NATO who started the whole chain-reaction off.
    so you dont mind being under hitler as long as he made stability and order? and i find it ironic how you claim the US an oil grabber and then get your orgasm from V8 cars... The US wouldnt really be much of an oil grabber if its people werent so obssessed how big their engines were. It's like going to a facking protest against oil in iraq war then go home driving a V4 lol. get out.
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    I did not support the Mujahideen back in the day for obvious reasons. However, I support them(now the Taliban) today, again, for obvious reasons.
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    how can this jakepearson fool be trying to justify the deaths of 1,417 palestians? and as someone else said, the actions of the israelis were condemned by the UN etc etc
    oh btw there were 13 israeli losses

    so thats like me poking somebody, and then they punch me back 10 times harder

    oh and just to make it clear im not condoning the actions of hamas either, both the IDF and hamas do disgusting things, im only on the side of the palestinian orphans, the children who've lost their limbs, the men who have no job so can't feed their families anymore, the kids who've seen things children should never have to see
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    (Original post by JakePearson)
    If you want to believe international law is always just only for the reason that it is international law, then do so. But according to my own morals, the "collective punishment" is justified.
    Dear JakePearson, you have no morals.

    124 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 1,441 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.

    1,072 Israelis and at least 6,348 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

    8,864 Israelis and 39,019 Palestinians have been injured since September 29, 2000.

    During Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid and $0 in military aid to the Palestinians.

    Israel has been targeted by at least 65 UN resolutions and the Palestinians have been targeted by none.

    1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7,383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 24,145 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

    The Israeli unemployment rate is 6.1%, while the Palestinian unemployment in the West Bank is 16.3% and 41.3% in Gaza.

    Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land.

    Source: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    In addition to these atrocities, Israel has effectively commited seige on Palestine, preventing innocent civilians recieving even the most basic neccesities.

    The Israeli military has prevented an aid convoy organised by Israeli human rights organisations, peace activists, and former military personnel, from reaching needy families in the besieged Gaza Strip.

    As of Monday, the Gaza-bound supplies, comprising non-perishable goods, are still warehoused at Kibbutz Kerem Shalom on the southern border of the Gaza strip, awaiting army clearance to cross into the strip.
    Source: http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/p...745347320.html

    And if that were not enough, you have the fact that they have used substances such as White Phosphorus (which has been banned by the Geneva Convention due to how ridiculously inhumane it is) to bomb everything from schools full of toddlers to embassies filled with diplomats.

    The main UN compound in Gaza was left in flames today after being struck by Israeli artillery fire, and a spokesman said that the building had been hit by shells containing the incendiary agent white phosphorus.
    Source: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5521925.ece

    How can you justify such heinous actions? Please, I'm fascinated to know.
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    (Original post by Rimipie)
    how can this jakepearson fool be trying to justify the deaths of 1,417 palestians? and as someone else said, the actions of the israelis were condemned by the UN etc etc
    oh btw there were 13 israeli losses
    Don't call me a fool. The actions of the Israelis are ALWAYS condemned by the UN, even when they are right. There were 13 Israeli losses in the war on Gaza, 25 Israeli losses and as well as between 1500 and 3000 Israelis injured in the rocket attacks by Hamas that caused the war.

    (Original post by Rimipie)
    so thats like me poking somebody, and then they punch me back 10 times harder
    You shouldn't have poked them then.

    (Original post by Rimipie)
    oh and just to make it clear im not condoning the actions of hamas either, both the IDF and hamas do disgusting things, im only on the side of the palestinian orphans, the children who've lost their limbs, the men who have no job so can't feed their families anymore, the kids who've seen things children should never have to see
    I do not always support the IDF either, but there are Israeli children who have experienced the same things.
 
 
 
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