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    Good for you


    (Original post by Yazr)
    Does anyone eles share this ? I Just get this idea that people think Christians are middle class wolly wearing jumper boring people.
    Sounds like that is exactly what you're doing! Have fun but don't forget there's more to being a Christian than believing in Jesus.
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    (Original post by Antonia87)
    I'm a Christian Catholic and yet I feel a little sick.
    :ditto:

    Not surprising really
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    I'm sorry.

    'Update' is not a ****ing adjective.
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    (Original post by StandingOnAir)
    It was as natural as they believed pain and death due to toil to be! Not something that was intended by God, but an inescapable consequence of sin.
    How is that ]not intended by God? Isn't it god who decides what is sin and what is not.


    Modern day Christianity is still caught up in the patriarchal times of our grandparents' generation, let alone of biblical times. Christianity is often very conservative about tradition, and even the most progressive denomination (CofE) took a long time to ordain women as priests. Regardless of this, it seems that the more extreme you go with regards to beliefs about the roles of women (Catholic, Orthodox, etc.), the more you get veneration of Jesus' mother Mary and other female saints.

    What you mean subservient obedient virgins? Im not surprised they venerate these women.

    Obviously some of the more conservative fundamentalist protestants still hold a fairly negative attitude towards women, but it's clearly a very complex issue in modern Christianity, and it's therefore certainly not possible to say that Christianity in general promotes the subordination of women.
    I think it most definately is. Like you said, it is only the most progressive denominations (i still use that word lightly) Which have begun to ordain women as priests. The role of a good christian woman is still the doting mother and wife stereotype.

    I talk about the logical explanation of religious texts because, when we can appreciate this, we can recognise the fundamental values that the Jews were expressing through them. If we understand their worldview then we can move past it and see what core beliefs they held.

    But i was not, and do not, argue with those who choose to see past these things. I am arguing with users who still take these things literally, or at least believe in them. The discussion on core beliefs devoid of ancient cultural influences is one far removed from that which i was taking part in.


    I'll repeat that other material, such as Genesis 1:26-28, transcends this. For a NT example, Galatians 28 does nicely: There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.

    This seems nothing more than a fledgling religious cult extending the traditional Jewish criteria of 'chosen people' in order to widen it's power base.


    I'm not arguing in defence of Christians who take Genesis 1-11 literally, and who therefore believe that woman was literally the root of all evil by taking the fruit and giving it to man, and that God genuinely ordained that she should be subservient to man.
    Well it was that defence which i was arguing against. So forgive me if you first post was misinterpreted, it could have been a little clearer.

    Obviously if you believe that God/Moses wrote Genesis, and therefore that it's literal truth, then Genesis does promote the subordination of women.
    Which, again, is what i was arguing against.


    My argument is: 'if we recognise the primitive and brutal tradition as a cultural rather than religious influence, we can hope to find out what religious truths Christianity is based upon'.

    But i do not believe the two are mutually exclusive. :dontknow:
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    The existence of intergalactic dragonfly's cannot be disproved. Would you say your faith that they do not exist is equal to the faith of a person who believes they do?

    Gods non-existence is not fact. But if you are going to use that argument you must accept that there is as much proof for God as there is for Yoda or the Matrix, and in turn must give those fictions equal consideration lest you become a hypocrite.

    Would you mind elaborating on this point?
    thank you for a response that isn't using the following arguments 'you treat me like I'm stupid, you're preaching at me, you're trying to convert' as a response or point of debate. Its much more interesting to discuss and debate when people are willing to a) listen and b) consider that the opposition may have some validity in what they are saying.

    I think you make a valid point with your first question, mostly because it requires thought to answer :p: I think that if there was evidence for the existence of intergalactic dragonflys (though not proof) or what could be considered evidence by a proportion of a population. Then all those that had seen the evidence and then made a decision regarding definitive yes-or-no of the existence of intergalactic dragonflys then both decisions would be made on faith, however the extent of the faith required would depend on numerous factors... dya kinda get what I mean? I'm dreadful with words and sentence structure etc so I apologise if my meaning is unclear!

    I agree that there is no scientific proof of Gods existence or non existence but I believe there is definitely evidence pointing to some kind of divine being at least, and from what I believe I've experienced of God he is more real to me than Yoda or the Matrix - though if I met Yoda or escaped from the Matrix I'm sure I'd see things differently :p:

    Of course - If you consider the probability of the first amino acids/carbohydrates/fatty acids just coming into existence its highly improbable, if you consider the development of actual unicellular organisms its highly improbable, the probability of it just happening by itself is small so another explanation would be creation.

    Also, are you aware of the definition of species? evolution explains how each species changed in characteristics, but does not entirely explain the inability to interbreed. variability within species (a good example is dogs) is massive, but you still can't breed a dog with a cat and produce viable offspring - so where did all the different species come from? (I can't explain it very well as I'm just trying to recall arguments I heard from someone else and thought wow thats interesting - before that I just didn't care, I just didn't consider how we got here to be particularly interesting)

    And it would be very illogical to not agree with evolution there is a lot of scientific evidence of it on a small scale

    i.e evolution with a small 'e' rather than evolution with a big 'E'

    Please tell me if I've cocked up in my explanation at all - I'm making a claim in God, not a claim that I'm 100% correct in what I'm trying to explain/argue
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    Why does Jesus not want to talk with me?
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    Why does Jesus not want to talk with me?
    Open your heart and mind. Then He can.
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    (Original post by Yazr)
    Im not religeous, religion is dead to me.. im a non legalistic Christian who has a growing relationship with Jesus and has saw him do amazing things in my life and with others.
    Such as?

    The Church I go to sings Hillsongs like rock worship http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYLxPByRZjg Its AWESOME. Our church is radical and has over 100 youth members. Its update and amazing.
    Good for you.

    I Just get this idea that people think Christians are middle class wolly wearing jumper boring people.
    I don't think that.
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    Open your heart and mind. Then He can.
    Nah, if I want to delude myself into thinking I'm special I just get pissed instead.

    What exactly do you mean by that ^^ anyway?
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    (Original post by RachelOranges)
    I guess I'm what you call born again and like OP I prefer the Hillsong approach to worship. I think everyone's relationship with Jesus is different as every person is different and its only between them and Jesus. God has different plans for all of us so I don't really see how one set of rules and way of worship can work for everyone. It's only as soon as I realised that being a Christian is about developing a relationship with God and not with "The Church body" did I willingly accept Christ into my life.
    Hi, I think it is about developing a relationship with God, but I think fellowship becomes an important part of maintaining that relationship. Christian friends are the ones you can turn to when you're having a faith crisis or are struggling with something new you are trying to learn about God - plus I find group prayer really energising

    (heh, I admit that last part does sound odd... but came to Uni, joined a church small group - we meet once a week during a week, first meeting prayed in a way I never have before, and it was amazing...)

    I've definitely seen an improvement in my person and life since accepting God back into it - I was talked into writing a testimony to demonstrate it! :P

    Happy to receive PM's if you ever fancy any extra support you're not getting through your church - I have first had experience in the fact that some churches really aren't as good as others at loving each other..
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    Nah, if I want to delude myself into thinking I'm special I just get pissed instead.

    What exactly do you mean by that ^^ anyway?
    I think the other poster is trying to say that if you talk to, and are receptive to a response then you might hear what you are getting.

    I find it so hard sometimes to tell when God's a talking to me.. and sometimes its so straightfoward it is like having a conversation.. ol mysteries of life eh?
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    (Original post by rainbowbex)
    Hi, I think it is about developing a relationship with God
    What exactly does this involve? I never felt this 'relationship' even when I was a believing Catholic, which I was in my youth.
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    (Original post by rainbowbex)
    I think the other poster is trying to say that if you talk to, and are receptive to a response then you might hear what you are getting.
    What exactly am I meant to do.....talk to myself and hope for a response?
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    Good for you




    Sounds like that is exactly what you're doing! Have fun but don't forget there's more to being a Christian than believing in Jesus.
    Yeah I'm having a thing for 2 Peter 3-9 :P

    That said first few chapters of Romans sum me up pretty well too.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    How is that ]not intended by God? Isn't it god who decides what is sin and what is not.
    I didn't say they were seen to be sins, but the consequence of sins. And that is the sense in which they were seen to be natural. What I said was therefore not a contradiction.


    (Original post by Aeolus)
    What you mean subservient obedient virgins? Im not surprised they venerate these women.
    It goes against what you were originally saying about Christianity believing that women are "for mans benefit only". They were seen to be holy and righteous in themselves, for whatever reason.


    (Original post by Aeolus)
    I think it most definitely is. Like you said, it is only the most progressive denominations (i still use that word lightly) Which have begun to ordain women as priests. The role of a good christian woman is still the doting mother and wife stereotype.
    No, that is a stereotype of Christianity. That isn't to say that it doesn't happen, but it's certainly not representative of Christianity as a whole - not in the UK, at least.


    (Original post by Aeolus)
    But i was not, and do not, argue with those who choose to see past these things. I am arguing with users who still take these things literally, or at least believe in them. The discussion on core beliefs devoid of ancient cultural influences is one far removed from that which i was taking part in.
    Yes, I know, so we can move on. (And if you're trying to have that argument with me, it's not going to work, because I'm not defending that.)


    (Original post by Aeolus)
    This seems nothing more than a fledgling religious cult extending the traditional Jewish criteria of 'chosen people' in order to widen it's power base.
    Regardless of its purpose, it makes no distinction between man and woman. They are said to be "one", and that's why I was using it as an example of a point at which the patriarchal influences are transcended (although Paul doesn't always do this).


    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Well it was that defence which i was arguing against. So forgive me if you first post was misinterpreted, it could have been a little clearer.
    I was talking about the cultural origins of the beliefs - I could hardly have been arguing for a literal interpretation...


    (Original post by Aeolus)
    But i do not believe the two are mutually exclusive. :dontknow:
    If we understand them to be a cultural influence (i.e. the tinted glasses through which they see their world, rather than the world itself), then the logical thing to do is to attempt to remove these elements so that we can understand the truths that the Israelites were attempting to convey. Following my analogy, what you are arguing is that, if we were to take the tinted glasses away, the world would still be tinted - and while that is certainly possible, it is perhaps not the most plausible conclusion to draw.
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    Nah, if I want to delude myself into thinking I'm special I just get pissed instead.

    What exactly do you mean by that ^^ anyway?
    Oh ye of little mind - but at least you're sensible enough to realise you aren't special
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    What exactly am I meant to do.....talk to myself and hope for a response?

    Gunna switch to PM if thats ok? make it easier to respond
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    Oh ye of little mind - but at least you're sensible enough to realise you aren't special
    Christian humility

    Little mind...eh? Care to expand?
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    (Original post by rainbowbex)
    Gunna switch to PM if thats ok? make it easier to respond
    Yeah sure.
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    :ditto:

    Not surprising really
    I dont get it :confused: (your changing of my post, that is).

    Edit: I am not a Catholic.
 
 
 
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