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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    I hate this argument. It makes "God" out to be somewhat of a sissy who will let ANYONE into heaven if they repent on their death-beds, even if they've raped, pillaged, and murdered (so were essentially a Viking, then :p: ) their way through life.

    Let me put this another way; on Gary Glitters' death-bed, if he begs for forgiveness, does anyone here reckon he will be let into the magical place that is "heaven"?

    If so:
    Then your so called "God" is weak, and you are devoting your lives to pointless worship when you may as well forgive on your death-bed and be done with it without the hassle of church and whatnot.

    If not:
    Then he isn't really all that forgiving then, is he? :p:
    Calm down it's a mistype! :p:

    God cannot be mislead. It's hard to convince someone that you repent of everything when that someone can read your mind.
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    (Original post by theBOON)
    Calm down it's a mistype! :p:

    God cannot be mislead. It's hard to convince someone that you repent of everything when that someone can read your mind.
    ...you didn't acknowledge my question concerning Gary Glitter.

    I'm waiting.
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    I hate this argument. It makes "God" out to be somewhat of a sissy who will let ANYONE into heaven if they repent on their death-beds, even if they've raped, pillaged, and murdered (so were essentially a Viking, then :p: ) their way through life.

    Let me put this another way; on Gary Glitters' death-bed, if he begs for forgiveness, does anyone here reckon he will be let into the magical place that is "heaven"?

    If so:
    Then your so called "God" is weak, and you are devoting your lives to pointless worship when you may as well forgive on your death-bed and be done with it without the hassle of church and whatnot.

    If not:
    Then he isn't really all that forgiving then, is he? :p:
    So...is it being the better person to hold grudges and hate people and refuse reconcilliation? Sounds like a sad, sad life to me. I'd say its pretty frikkin mighty to love someone so much that no matter what they do, you never let go. You make all ways for them to return to you because you love them and created them to love you in return. So, after a lifetime of them doing terrible things, blinded from all things good, what if they suddenly decide to let go of the wall they were hiding behind, what if they 'see the light'. What if in their heart they TRULY are at their wits end, they hate themselves and who they've been and they want to change. They truly,in their heart repent of all the crap they've done and been involved with and want your forgiveness? They finally realize that they should not have beenrunning from you their entire life? Are you going to scream GO TO HELL? "course not! You love them, remember? And since you know their heart you can see that they are sincere in their repent and that they truly want to change their ways. Are you going to forgive them and bring them to you with open arms? Yes. Like a good father, who wil forgive any offense.
    If you still don't see forgiveness as being one of the highest acts of love then I am sorry, but you have a screwed up sense of what love really is, especially the love of a father.
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    ...you didn't acknowledge my question concerning Gary Glitter.

    I'm waiting.
    I obviously can't know a definite answer. Only God the omniscient has all the knowledge to really know anything concerning Gary Glitter. If the rocker (you like punk rock? me too!!!) is sorry for what he did he will be forgiven.

    What you fail to understand (I assume) is that because God is omniscient it's very difficult for anyone to convince him they really repented. Not even convincing yourself you did bad and you are sorry....etc will help because your intentions are selfish and greedy just as they were selfish and greedy when you committed all the other sins. Hell, even hitler or stalin could enter heaven if they were to repent but that's something beyond their capability. The devils tail is wrapped to tight around them.
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    (Original post by theBOON)
    No there is no wormholes in Catholicism/Christianity? What do you think, this is? Some windows crap filled with patches?

    The deal is that he will forgive ANYTHING if YOU ACCEPT HIM AS A GOD AND ACCEPT HIS FORGIVENESS. In other words you must REPENT!!!!
    By life against his will your refuting him and by default accepting the devil. By doing so you compromise his deal. You can't repent on Judgement hour.
    I can and will, and I'll be in heaven living it up with all the angels and that, having led a depraved, morally bankrupt life, and you'll have been all holy for nothing.
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    I have a relationship with my toilet. Admitedly the relationship involves me going it, sitting on it, taking a manly dump and leaving again. But nevertheless it is still a relationship. Do I tell everyone about this? No. So why has the OP?
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    Hmmm, I prefer traditional Church music myself.
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    I can and will, and I'll be in heaven living it up with all the angels and that, having led a depraved, morally bankrupt life, and you'll have been all holy for nothing.
    No you won't be able to. God is omniscient. He knows everything. He knows your bad intentions now and for the future. You may even convince yourself in some way that you did wrong but you'll be doing this with the same egoism and greed that you sinned with throughout you whole life. Your wrong intentions will still be clear to God. You're happily submitting to the devil. You'll become his b1tc#!!

    [IMG]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/10959/slap-*****-demotivational-poster.jpg[/IMG]

    Wake up from your day dreaming boy!!! :slap:
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    (Original post by theBOON)
    No you won't be able to. God is omniscient. He knows everything. He knows your bad intentions now and for the future. You may even convince yourself in some way that you did wrong but you'll be doing this with the same egoism and greed that you sinned with throughout you whole life. Your wrong intentions will still be clear to God. You're happily submitting to the devil. You'll become his b1tc#!!

    [IMG]http://www.comicbookmovie.com/images/users/uploads/10959/slap-*****-demotivational-poster.jpg[/IMG]

    Wake up from your day dreaming boy!!! :slap:
    But thanks to Jesus he is contractually obliged to forgive me.:woo:
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    But thanks to Jesus he is contractually obliged to forgive me.:woo:
    Fancy a trip to the brothel then?
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    (Original post by Rachelwhitney)
    So...is it being the better person to hold grudges and hate people and refuse reconcilliation? Sounds like a sad, sad life to me. I'd say its pretty frikkin mighty to love someone so much that no matter what they do, you never let go.
    It's your book that says that bad people go to hell love, not mine.

    (Original post by Rachelwhitney)
    You make all ways for them to return to you because you love them and created them to love you in return.
    So what you are essentially saying here, is that God made your mum pregnant, amirite? (of course I am because of course that's what you meant).
    Never thought that "God" was much that interested in infidelity, but hey, if you say so...

    (Original post by Rachelwhitney)
    So, after a lifetime of them doing terrible things, blinded from all things good, what if they suddenly decide to let go of the wall they were hiding behind, what if they 'see the light'.
    Then my point still stands and that is irrelevant. What I say is rational, what you say is delusional. But hey, that's just my opinion...

    Edit: See my point below, which explains this bit as well. And 3 points below (big ranty bit).

    (Original post by Rachelwhitney)
    What if in their heart they TRULY are at their wits end, they hate themselves and who they've been and they want to change. They truly,in their heart repent of all the crap they've done and been involved with and want your forgiveness?
    Do you know NOTHING of the human race? Or maybe you're just not as cynical as me.
    Regardless, people who beg for forgiveness from something that have never believed in are doing so because they are scared. End of. They realise that "Holy ****, what if there IS a God? I'LL GO TO HELL! ONOEZ!!!!!1!!!1!111!!1!!!1eleven tyone etc"

    They don't believe in "God". They're just doing so as a safety measure in case their belief system is wrong. If they go to heaven then fine, whatever, no skin off my nose. But I won't be begging a non-entity for forgiveness on my death-bed, so sirree. I have something called "dignity", and I would rather stick to my morals and beliefs than relinquish my Atheism for the sake of "something might be there".

    (Original post by Rachelwhitney)
    They finally realize that they should not have beenrunning from you their entire life? Are you going to scream GO TO HELL? "course not!
    See my first point, then see above.

    (Original post by Rachelwhitney)
    You love them, remember? And since you know their heart you can see that they are sincere in their repent and that they truly want to change their ways. Are you going to forgive them and bring them to you with open arms? Yes. Like a good father, who wil forgive any offense.
    See two points above.
    And secondly, any "good" father would scold his child for being bad.
    You steal from a shop? You get disciplined. End of. Punishments fits the crime. When it comes to "God", what do you think he is going to do? Cut the "all-loving" crap, he's supposed to be somewhat rational. So if he knows that you didn't believe in him until your death, it's likely he will go along as the same line that I take. And won't forgive.

    "God" made us in his image, right?
    And we LOVE attention, right?
    So therefore "God" must LOVE being worshipped, right?

    You going to make the connection, or shall I?

    I think I'll do it:

    No human being would put up with people around them who don't acknowledge their existence, much less go about directly disobeying them and seemingly trying to piss them off. So if we are made in the image of your "God", he will not tolerate this, just as we won't (and don't).
    So why would he want non-believers in "his heaven"? He wouldn't. It would be like being worshipped by a caveman; they have no idea what they are worshipping you for other than you are higher and more evolved than them.
    Same with people and "God"; someone who begs on their death-bed will have no idea what religion is about, and are therefore infinitely more worthless than the people who devote their lives to "God".

    (Original post by Rachelwhitney)
    If you still don't see forgiveness as being one of the highest acts of love then I am sorry, but you have a screwed up sense of what love really is, especially the love of a father.
    My ex cheated on me. Do I forgive her "out of love"? No, I think she's a twisted and evil ***** with no remorse for what she did, and we broke up.

    And "God" isn't my father. My biological father as can be proven by Science and DNA testing is my father. Refute that, if you can.
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    (Original post by Yazr)
    I have a Relationship with Jesus

    isnt he a bit old for you?
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    I think you might just be a little bit crazy, to put it mildly.

    Sorry mate, i'm an atheist.
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    But thanks to Jesus he is contractually obliged to forgive me.:woo:
    No he isn't. The deal is accept him as God and repent and he will forgive you.

    By doing evil your submitting to the devil instead of God. Deal is out. Furthermore, as I explained earlier, in the circumstance that in realise that he exists you accept him as God you still won't be able to meet the deal because you need to repent and that is easier said then done given that you are repenting with the sole intention of entering heaven and with the same greed and selfishness that you earlier portrayed in your life. It's easy to understand. What you you want more a truth table and a logic diagram?!
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    It's your book that says that bad people go to hell love, not mine.



    So what you are essentially saying here, is that God made your mum pregnant, amirite? (of course I am because of course that's what you meant).
    Never thought that "God" was much that interested in infidelity, but hey, if you say so...



    Then my point still stands and that is irrelevant. What I say is rational, what you say is delusional. But hey, that's just my opinion...

    Edit: See my point below, which explains this bit as well. And 3 points below (big ranty bit).



    Do you know NOTHING of the human race? Or maybe you're just not as cynical as me.
    Regardless, people who beg for forgiveness from something that have never believed in are doing so because they are scared. End of. They realise that "Holy ****, what if there IS a God? I'LL GO TO HELL! ONOEZ!!!!!1!!!1!111!!1!!!1eleven tyone etc"

    They don't believe in "God". They're just doing so as a safety measure in case their belief system is wrong. If they go to heaven then fine, whatever, no skin off my nose. But I won't be begging a non-entity for forgiveness on my death-bed, so sirree. I have something called "dignity", and I would rather stick to my morals and beliefs than relinquish my Atheism for the sake of "something might be there".



    See my first point, then see above.



    See two points above.
    And secondly, any "good" father would scold his child for being bad.
    You steal from a shop? You get disciplined. End of. Punishments fits the crime. When it comes to "God", what do you think he is going to do? Cut the "all-loving" crap, he's supposed to be somewhat rational. So if he knows that you didn't believe in him until your death, it's likely he will go along as the same line that I take. And won't forgive.

    "God" made us in his image, right?
    And we LOVE attention, right?
    So therefore "God" must LOVE being worshipped, right?

    You going to make the connection, or shall I?

    I think I'll do it:

    No human being would put up with people around them who don't acknowledge their existence, much less go about directly disobeying them and seemingly trying to piss them off. So if we are made in the image of your "God", he will not tolerate this, just as we won't (and don't).
    So why would he want non-believers in "his heaven"? He wouldn't. It would be like being worshipped by a caveman; they have no idea what they are worshipping you for other than you are higher and more evolved than them.
    Same with people and "God"; someone who begs on their death-bed will have no idea what religion is about, and are therefore infinitely more worthless than the people who devote their lives to "God".



    My ex cheated on me. Do I forgive her "out of love"? No, I think she's a twisted and evil ***** with no remorse for what she did, and we broke up.

    And "God" isn't my father. My biological father as can be proven by Science and DNA testing is my father. Refute that, if you can.
    What Rachelwhitney is saying is true and can happen. That's one reason why judging must be left in the hands of God the omniscient because there's not fooling around with him. Don't bother judging others; just live a good life or just go to hell (no pun intended).
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    (Original post by theBOON)
    I obviously can't know a definite answer. Only God the omniscient has all the knowledge to really know anything concerning Gary Glitter. If the rocker (you like punk rock? me too!!!) is sorry for what he did he will be forgiven.

    What you fail to understand (I assume) is that because God is omniscient it's very difficult for anyone to convince him they really repented. Not even convincing yourself you did bad and you are sorry....etc will help because your intentions are selfish and greedy just as they were selfish and greedy when you committed all the other sins. Hell, even hitler or stalin could enter heaven if they were to repent but that's something beyond their capability. The devils tail is wrapped to tight around them.
    Ok, but apparently "God" made us in his image... so surely, regardless of his other aspects, you should share the same viewpoints as him, especially as you openly embrace his love?
    So with reference to that, how do you view Gary Glitter concerning my question?

    And secondly:

    Surely "God" is not forgiving if Hitler and Stalin can't get into heaven? How about Harold Shipman? Josef Fritzel? The kids responsible for the Columbine Massacre? They aren't good people, but aren't exactly as bad as Hitler/Stalin.

    But where do you think "God" stands on that?

    (I'm not taking the piss with the quote marks and stuff, before anyone gets offended about it; I deny the existence of "God" fully, hence why my putting it without the speech marks would kinda acknowledge the existence of such. May be bad logic by some/most people's standards, but it's my logic, so screw the rest of you ).
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    What exactly is the relevance of that?
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    (Original post by theBOON)
    No he isn't. The deal is accept him as God and repent and he will forgive you.

    By doing evil your submitting to the devil instead of God. Deal is out. Furthermore, as I explained earlier, in the circumstance that in realise that he exists you accept him as God you still won't be able to meet the deal because you need to repent and that is easier said then done given that you are repenting with the sole intention of entering heaven and with the same greed and selfishness that you earlier portrayed in your life. It's easy to understand. What you you want more a truth table and a logic diagram?!
    I'll be truthfully repenting if I die and find out he's actually real, and then he will forgive me. That or I just have to be so bad that I become the devil's mainboy and he treats me nicely.
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    It's your book that says that bad people go to hell love, not mine.



    So what you are essentially saying here, is that God made your mum pregnant, amirite? (of course I am because of course that's what you meant).
    Never thought that "God" was much that interested in infidelity, but hey, if you say so...



    Then my point still stands and that is irrelevant. What I say is rational, what you say is delusional. But hey, that's just my opinion...

    Edit: See my point below, which explains this bit as well. And 3 points below (big ranty bit).



    Do you know NOTHING of the human race? Or maybe you're just not as cynical as me.
    Regardless, people who beg for forgiveness from something that have never believed in are doing so because they are scared. End of. They realise that "Holy ****, what if there IS a God? I'LL GO TO HELL! ONOEZ!!!!!1!!!1!111!!1!!!1eleven tyone etc"

    They don't believe in "God". They're just doing so as a safety measure in case their belief system is wrong. If they go to heaven then fine, whatever, no skin off my nose. But I won't be begging a non-entity for forgiveness on my death-bed, so sirree. I have something called "dignity", and I would rather stick to my morals and beliefs than relinquish my Atheism for the sake of "something might be there".



    See my first point, then see above.



    See two points above.
    And secondly, any "good" father would scold his child for being bad.
    You steal from a shop? You get disciplined. End of. Punishments fits the crime. When it comes to "God", what do you think he is going to do? Cut the "all-loving" crap, he's supposed to be somewhat rational. So if he knows that you didn't believe in him until your death, it's likely he will go along as the same line that I take. And won't forgive.

    "God" made us in his image, right?
    And we LOVE attention, right?
    So therefore "God" must LOVE being worshipped, right?

    You going to make the connection, or shall I?

    I think I'll do it:

    No human being would put up with people around them who don't acknowledge their existence, much less go about directly disobeying them and seemingly trying to piss them off. So if we are made in the image of your "God", he will not tolerate this, just as we won't (and don't).
    So why would he want non-believers in "his heaven"? He wouldn't. It would be like being worshipped by a caveman; they have no idea what they are worshipping you for other than you are higher and more evolved than them.
    Same with people and "God"; someone who begs on their death-bed will have no idea what religion is about, and are therefore infinitely more worthless than the people who devote their lives to "God".



    My ex cheated on me. Do I forgive her "out of love"? No, I think she's a twisted and evil ***** with no remorse for what she did, and we broke up.

    And "God" isn't my father. My biological father as can be proven by Science and DNA testing is my father. Refute that, if you can.
    Before you let your pride make you feel like king of the world, let me say that if you want to go to hell, be my guest. Of course God is pissed off and is angry with the idiots who don't believe him, and anybody who is anyone who ever did anything bad will have to reap the consequences of what they did. That does not omit salvation. I dont remember ever saying that God would not deal with the horrid things they've done.
    and how the hell do you think you know that people cannot honestly repent? You think it is because they are scared; that is only because that is what you would do. But you would rather be angry and hate the world and to thrive off of your pride and so called 'dignity' than to humble yourself before the one that created you. So be it.
    Oh, and, if you knew anything about science you would know that God did not impregnate my mother. That doesn't change the fact that he knew I would exist before she was pregnant,and he created me and knit me together in my mothers womb. Pure science and goop made me form the way I am? I dont think so. You think so,but I dont.
    God is a heavenly father who created everything and everyone. You dont want to believe that, in fact you are going to try to make yourself feel better than me by arguing every thing I say because in your heart you believe me to be wrong. I am sorry you feel that way.
    End of conversation. I refuse to argue with someone who just wants to argue for arguments sake. You will never believe what I am saying, though I want you to.
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    Fancy a trip to the brothel then?
    Let's go to one of those special brothels in Vietnam lol
 
 
 
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