Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    But the universe does have a beginning.
    Only in the curent ''cycle''. Who knows that multiple univeres may exist or that there may have been a previous universe before the big bang. From the Vedas it says the universe has been created again and again, and anhilated after each birth, again and again.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Actually, science has gone quite a long way in explaining it. The start of time as we knw it, is the big bang. This will probably be simple enough for you: http://www.big-bang-theory.com/

    As for simplicity. I think you will find it goes.

    Benevolent, omnipotent creator.
    Creator
    Creation

    Declaring that the universe is 'created' by something which you seek to personify just makes things even more complicated. Questions arise such as who created the creator? Why did the creator create etc..etc.. And you cannot escape these questions. You have already said youself that something cannot just come into existence without cause, so you ahve to explain how the creator did. So you can see how this explanation is so much more complicated than the simple creation explanation.



    Oh like christianity? A religion which tells africans condoms are evil, which in turn helps to spread one of the most deadly and indiscriminate viruses around Africa, or maybe we can discusss the vast cabal of child rapists and abusers which have been exposed to exist withing the highest echelons of the faith, despite it's attempts to protect them. Maybe we can focus on christianities war of genocide against the Muslims in Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia? The horrors of christian misssionary around the world, the inquisition and so on and so forth.

    Or maybe Judaism? A religion which along with it's Islamic cousin is threatening WW3 in the west bank and Jerusalem. Where it's adherrents want to knock down someones holy building to build their own holy building because God told them to?

    Or amybe their evangelical supporters who only do so, because they think that they are hastening the apocalypse? Hence the prophecy, when all the Jews are dead or enslaved the messiah will return and bring about the reckoning etc..etc..

    People actually really believe these things and will stop at nothing to make them happen.

    And that is just two thirds of the abrahamic faith. You said above you aren't defending Islam, so i didn't list the horrors which eminate from that faith. but i could if you want me to? I don't see how it would help your argument though?



    I have said it before i will say it again. Assertions made with no evidence can be dismissed in the same way.

    I wonder, would all those thousands of priests and bishops have been child rapists if they werent forced to become virgins?

    Would the pope have indirectly killed millions if he hadn't been a chrisitan Would he still have spread the word around Africa that condoms are evil? Would he still have condemned millions of children to die needlesly of aids?



    LOL Socialism was a religion in itself. Centered around an all powerfull leader, whos name could not be taken in vain, and around whom was created a cult, much the same as that which exists around religious leaders or profits. We could look at North Korea now, where the glorioous leader was said to be born of a virgin, and that when he was born, all of the birds began singing in Korean. If that is your idea of a secular and non religious society then i suggest you do some reading.




    What book! You keep talking about 'the book' what book is this?




    I live my life by rules and morals such as you should not kill. And that is final. You live your life by rules and morals such as thou shalt not kill...unless god tellls you to.
    I cannot believe you are retarded enough to be using the Catholic condom argument LOL. So let me get this straight - The pope tells those who expects to be following his religion not to have sex with anyone but their marrital partner, but added to that is the rule that no condoms must be used, and he is somehow to blame because idiots missed out the most important part - one partner. How is religion to blame because people in Africa accepted the part about not wearing a condom and rejected the more important part about not sleeping around? You forgot to mention that if it weren't for Christianity these people wouldn't be alive anyway.

    Socialism was what religion was replaced with, people will always have something; that is exactly what i'm saying.

    The book i'm referring to is 'Who really cares?' http://www.amazon.com/Who-Really-Car.../dp/0465008216

    It is you who is positing that religion makes people kill more than they would do otherwise, therefore the onus for evidence is on your shoulders not mine. It was me who posited that religion made people give more than they would if they were atheist, the evidence is above. If you want to argue with this then provide some evidence if you can? If you can't prove that religiousity makes people more likely to murder, or that religion makes people give less, then perhaps you should just accept you've lost.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Charzhino)
    Only in the curent ''cycle''. Who knows that multiple univeres may exist or that there may have been a previous universe before the big bang. From the Vedas it says the universe has been created again and again, and anhilated after each birth, again and again.

    Ok,, and why would that suggest that a creator exists?
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Whenever you ask questions like this you'll always get the same general answer: "it's a test"

    Such a load of ********
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    The argument that God breaking the laws of physics makes it improbable of His existence isn't really that strong.

    One of the defining characteristics of the Abrahamic God is that He is eternal - He has always been. That is, He exists separately from time, or rather, time exists separately from Him. So our "realm" (or universe, if you want to call it that) is not the same as God's.

    Should He be bound by our laws if He exists separately from them?

    There are much stronger arguments against His existence.

    *Ugh, seems that a lot was posted when I refreshed the page so I'll comment on some of it without specifically directing my quips at anyone, though it should be obvious where my points come from.

    Firstly, "before the big bang" is meaningless. The big bang is defined as the point at which time came to be. "Before" only makes sense in regards to time; if there is no time, there is no "before" or "after". Causality isn't violated in the absence of time. The big bang was neither a cause nor an effect. So there doesn't necessarily have to have been a creator, or a cause, of the universe.

    Secondly, as shown at the start, "who created the creator" is equally meaningless. He is, by definition, eternal. He wasn't created; He has always been. I guess it's tricky to contemplate since we cannot make sense of the world if time is absent, but meh, we can't do much about that.

    Thirdly, from where does an atheist's morals come from?

    A lot of the anti religious stuff posted here concentrates on the worst aspects of religion, whilst ignoring its good points, and ignores the worst parts of atheism, whilst focusing on its best points.

    I'd like to write at the end of this that I've argued on both sides specifically so I don't get lumped into either group. My own beliefs, or lack of them, are my own; I don't want to share them here.

    Oh yes, and the Catholic condom argument is weak too. I'm quite sure that those countries that have more fully embraced Catholicism in Africa have lower HIV rates than those which haven't.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Ok,, and why would that suggest that a creator exists?
    Presumably your asking why would a you need a God if the universe is eternal. Well since I derive my opinion from religious texts, it is said that the universe is an illusion, or a meere reflection of God. The only thing that is real is the absolute creator. The universe is akin to a dream, where the body producing it is needed to sustain the dream otherwise the dream wouldn't exist.

    Since I already believe in a creator, this makes most sense to me if there actually was a God. The explanations that this universe was created only once by a God who is seperate from it and sends people to hell after one lifetime was not as plausible
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I cannot believe you are retarded enough to be using the Catholic condom argument LOL. So let me get this straight - The pope tells those who expects to be following his religion not to have sex with anyone but their marrital partner, but added to that is the rule that no condoms must be used, and he is somehow to blame because idiots missed out the most important part - one partner.
    The pope spreads that word that abstinence is good, among a religious and superstitious population. Which is all well and good. But then he says that condoms are evil! The bishops in Africa spread the word that condoms cause aids! And you are calling me retarded! :rolleyes: Your arguments have gone from simply ridiculous, to near hysterical.

    How is religion to blame because people in Africa accepted the part about not wearing a condom and rejected the more important part about not sleeping around? You forgot to mention that if it weren't for Christianity these people wouldn't be alive anyway.
    :facepalm2: this should be good...

    Socialism was what religion was replaced with, people will always have something; that is exactly what i'm saying.
    No, the leaders of socialism who sought to exploit the massess used religion in order to gain a higher level of control. If people have to replace it with something, then explain tha peace and advancement which exists in secular and growing athiest western society. Namels Europe?

    It is you who is positing that religion makes people kill more than they would do otherwise, therefore the onus for evidence is on your shoulders not mine.
    What else can you possibly think of, that would make a man with a family think it was ok to fly a passenger plane into a building? I can't think of anything other than a god promising eternal life.

    It was me who posited that religion made people give more than they would if they were atheist, the evidence is above.
    That was evidence! :rofl:" That was unbased assumption, something you employ alot. And i put it you once more, that if charity excuses evil. Then you should not have a problem with the Jihad of Hamas, after all, they do alot of charity work in Gaza, they feed, shelter and home those who do not have it. They claim to do this by the grace of God.


    (I notice you have dropped the argument against science. :mmm: I didn' think you would be able to keep that up)
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Charzhino)
    Presumably your asking why would a you need a God if the universe is eternal. Well since I derive my opinion from religious texts, it is said that the universe is an illusion, or a meere reflection of God. The only thing that is real is the absolute creator. The universe is akin to a dream, where the body producing it is needed to sustain the dream otherwise the dream wouldn't exist.

    Since I already believe in a creator, this makes most sense to me if there actually was a God. The explanations that this universe was created only once by a God who is seperate from it and sends people to hell after one lifetime was not as plausible
    Sorry, but Genesis 1:1 says that the universe was created, not that it was/is eternal. Exactly what religious texts are you referring to?
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Hy~)
    Sorry, but Genesis 1:1 says that the universe was created, not that it was/is eternal. Exactly what religious texts are you referring to?
    I'm referring to The Vedas (Hinduism)
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Charzhino)
    Presumably your asking why would a you need a God if the universe is eternal. Well since I derive my opinion from religious texts, it is said that the universe is an illusion, or a meere reflection of God. The only thing that is real is the absolute creator. The universe is akin to a dream, where the body producing it is needed to sustain the dream otherwise the dream wouldn't exist.
    Again, occams razor, negates the uneccesary explanation for the universe you have come up with. You say the universe is an illusion. But the simplest conclusion we can come to is that it most definately isn't, and modern science makes your idea, entirely improbable. Of course we cannot completely prove it wrong, in the same way we cannot completely disprove a creator. But if you are willing to accpet the imrobability of your own story and believe fully, then you become somewhat of a hypocrite if you refuse to believe others which are equally improbable.

    Since I already believe in a creator, this makes most sense to me if there actually was a God. The explanations that this universe was created only once by a God who is seperate from it and sends people to hell after one lifetime was not as plausible[/QUOTE]
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Again, occams razor, negates the uneccesary explanation for the universe you have come up with.
    I don't take Occums Razor as the end all and be all.

    You say the universe is an illusion. But the simplest conclusion we can come to is that it most definitely isn't, and modern science makes your idea, entirely improbable. Of course we cannot completely prove it wrong, in the same way we cannot completely disprove a creator. But if you are willing to accpet the imrobability of your own story and believe fully, then you become somewhat of a hypocrite if you refuse to believe others which are equally improbable.
    An illusion relative to the true self. Also it's not ''agaisnt'' modern science, there was a whole cover story in New Scientist magazine a few months ago to the idea of a Holographic Universe explored.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Charzhino)
    I'm referring to The Vedas (Hinduism)
    Ah, my bad. I didn't read the whole post he was directing his post at. I don't feel qualified to comment on the Hindu religion so I withdraw what you quoted (even if it is technically correct).
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Uuuuh. Man wrote the bible not God. So what makes you think god does hate that kind off behaviour? God didn't even make the animals directly, they evolved, you see. Ever heard of evolution? See, people like you are ridiculous and so closed minded! Why do you look for flaws? Allow people to have their opinions, allow them to live their life the way they want to. 'I simply want people to see how ridiculous this religion is'. You have made a ridiculous point, you are just showing people how closed minded you are.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    The pope spreads that word that abstinence is good, among a religious and superstitious population. Which is all well and good. But then he says that condoms are evil! The bishops in Africa spread the word that condoms cause aids! And you are calling me retarded! Your arguments have gone from simply ridiculous, to near hysterical.



    this should be good...



    No, the leaders of socialism who sought to exploit the massess used religion in order to gain a higher level of control. If people have to replace it with something, then explain tha peace and advancement which exists in secular and growing athiest western society. Namels Europe?



    What else can you possibly think of, that would make a man with a family think it was ok to fly a passenger plane into a building? I can't think of anything other than a god promising eternal life.



    That was evidence! " That was unbased assumption, something you employ alot. And i put it you once more, that if charity excuses evil. Then you should not have a problem with the Jihad of Hamas, after all, they do alot of charity work in Gaza, they feed, shelter and home those who do not have it. They claim to do this by the grace of God.


    (I notice you have dropped the argument against science. I didn' think you would be able to keep that up)
    You have it all wrong. If they are going to follow the pope then they cannot just choose the part that says 'no condoms' and put to oneside the part that says 'get married and do not cheat'. If they weren't sleeping around like crazy and they weren't wearning condoms then AIDS wouldn't have gotten nearly as far.

    I have posted you evidence in the form of that book; which I have read. It contains a lot of data from 32,000 people surveyed - through various different means, and across all ages, races, religions, and political affiliations. Of course Hamas doesn't cancel out the amount of people it kills with the amount of people it saves, i'm talking about a global scale here, and globally Christianity has saved more than would have been saved otherwise. Those whom have been killed because of Christianity would have been killed otherwise - indeed AIDs would be even more widespread in Africa because no one would be practicing abstinence, and who is going to provide condoms? Atheists - pah.

    The science argument is going no where, we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God. You have shown nothing by highlighting the big bang, it does not show the start or what happened. Again it is how rather than why. Even if people were to start worshiping a ford focus flying around Saturn, as long as their religion makes their people into comparatively better people who am I to criticise or question them with something they cannot feasibly employ to defend themselves? Science does not have, within its scope, the ability to show or explain God.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Elipsis)
    You have it all wrong. If they are going to follow the pope then they cannot just choose the part that says 'no condoms' and put to oneside the part that says 'get married and do not cheat'. If they weren't sleeping around like crazy and they weren't wearning condoms then AIDS wouldn't have gotten nearly as far.
    Yes,, but we know that is not going to happen. They are not going to be abstinent. But instead of compensating for this, the benevolent and loving church makes it a thousands times worse by preaching that condoms are evil and spread aids. A complete falsity. Not a very good argument for religion preventing death is it. They are so caught up in their own dogma, they don't see how their words and policies result in millions of deaths. In places like Cameroon, people have limited access to information. The dogmatic misinformation and propaganda from the Catholic Church may be the only AIDS education these people get.

    They are victims of a bad combination of blind faith and blind dogmatism.

    I also notice you didn't adress my points on the huge ring of peadophiles which exists within the catholic church.

    Of course Hamas doesn't cancel out the amount of people it kills with the amount of people it saves, i'm talking about a global scale here, and globally Christianity has saved more than would have been saved otherwise.
    Another baseless assumption. I would say the complete opposite. And obviously i don't need evidence because you do not use any. A survey of 32,000 people as to whether they think christians give money is not evidence by the way. And it's rather amusing that you would even consider it so.

    Those whom have been killed because of Christianity would have been killed otherwise - indeed AIDs would be even more widespread in Africa because no one would be practicing abstinence, and who is going to provide condoms? Atheists - pah.
    You do know that arguing your points without knowing what you are talking about will eventually make you look like a complete idiot? Obviously not.

    You realise that the biggest charities in the world are secular? Including the red cross, amnesty international and many others? :rolleyes:

    The science argument is going no where, we can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God.

    No, the science argument is going knowhere for you. We cannot prove or disprove. But we can make probable and highly improbable. Your inability to accpet this simple fact goes to show how ignoratn you are willing to be.

    Science does not have, within its scope, the ability to show or explain God.
    What and bronze age illiterate peasants do? :rofl:
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Charzhino)
    I don't take Occums Razor as the end all and be all.

    Yet it is accepted as a pillar of reason and logic. If we must abandon these things to accomodate religion then we may aswell abandon them all which makes the argument worthless and flawed.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by innerhollow)
    I'm not trying to be a prat or anything (anymore). Seriously, if you admit that the scriptures of other world religions are historically accurate and thus correct, then you're saying their beliefs are true. That is what you're saying. If you think that is not the meaning of what you've been saying, then you're mistaken.
    I see you lack a bit of knowledge about the interpretations of religious texts. First of all I said some texts are historically correct. In these texts, events that show divine intervention happened (I'm talking about Abrahamic religions here). That doesn't mean that all Religions are good. It just a way to show that these religions are on the right track and that their bases aren't unfounded. For example I'm Catholic. That doesn't mean I consider Islam teachings to be all wrong. I disagree on some and agree on others. I consider Catholicism to be better but Islam is still on the right track. Also you seem to think that God will only interact with those upon the right decision which is also wrong. We believe God interacted with atheists and murders and many others and converted them.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by theBOON)
    I see you lack a bit of knowledge about the interpretations of religious texts. First of all I said some texts are historically correct. In these texts, events that show divine intervention happened (I'm talking about Abrahamic religions here). That doesn't mean that all Religions are good. It just a way to show that these religions are on the right track and that their bases aren't unfounded. For example I'm Catholic. That doesn't mean I consider Islam teachings to be all wrong. I disagree on some and agree on others. I consider Catholicism to be better but Islam is still on the right track. Also you seem to think that God will only interact with those upon the right decision which is also wrong. We believe God interacted with atheists and murders and many others and converted them.


    You keep talking about historical grounding. Yet you haven't answered my post which exposes this apparent history, as factually inaccurate at best, and in the most part completely false.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Wrong, the majority of the history the holy scriptures were based on are for the most part false and factually inaccurate. It is widely accepted now that Exodus is fiction, and has a basis in Ancient Egyption myth. As for the story of Jesus, there are so many historical falsaties that i do not know where to begin, his story and tale was created to fit the prophecy made concerning the messiah 800 years before. Everything, from the fabrication concerning his birth in Bethlehem, to the census ordered by Augustus which is recorded by no Roman historian. The only record concerning any kind of census is that of a Jewish historian who said it took place six years after Jesus birth, and two years after Herod's death. Thats not even taking into consideration the fact that the roman officials who were said to govern palestine at the time, were not the roman officials who actually were. I could go on and on and on....

    Not to mention the fact, as the other user says above. If you are going to judge plausability by historical accuracy, then you must accept that what is said in the Qu'ran, Talmud, Iliad, Vedas etc...etc.. Alot of which contradict and falsify your own.
    Your the one in the wrong. Those Discovery Channel type shows or whatever you got your source from are just exaggerating something insignificant to catch audience. If you talk to a historian who specifies into Holy Scriptures, he can tell you which texts are historically accurate and the correct way to interpret them. Besides don't you think that if these were solid proof there would be some media outbreak or something?
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Since people who don't believe in God are generally fans of evolution, I'd like to ask this:
    Why did evolution result in homosexual/bisexual animals?
    Didn't you read the post at all?

    It quite clearly states that its a method of conflict resolution. It's not difficult to imagine that given the choice between humping an angry monkey and getting torn apart limb by limb by an angry monkey - that humping is not only more resource efficient but allows an individual to avoid being made an outcast of his group and hence - has continued access to monkey ladies.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you rather give up salt or pepper?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Write a reply...
    Reply
    Hide
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.