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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    Yes I would. Everyone would.



    But it can't.



    Because it's not.


    GTFO
    I can prove it to you.
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    (Original post by roots)
    I can prove it to you.
    Go on then.
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    Go on then.
    Im going to quote to you from Isaiah 42. Its a book of prophecies from the Old Testament. Trust me this isn't like other prophecies you hear about. Im making a bold claim so what im putting forward must be strong.

    I'll go through it in parts. Its long but i've tried to keep it simple.

    "Here is my servant, whom I uphold,
    my chosen one in whom I delight;
    I will put my Spirit on him
    and he will bring justice to the nations.
    In Arabic "chosen one" or "mine elect" translates into Mustapha. This was one of the names of Muhammad (pbuh)

    he will not falter or be discouraged
    till he establishes justice on earth.
    In his law the islands will put their hope."
    These part predicts that he will come with a new law. "His law" Implying that it is different from the current law.

    I will keep you and will make you
    to be a covenant for the people
    and a light for the Gentiles,
    This is a main part.

    Light for the gentiles means a Prophet for all people.

    See, the former things have taken place,
    and new things I declare;
    before they spring into being
    I announce them to you."
    This is one of the distinctions about Muhammad (pbuh). He gave the same message as all of the earlier Prophets but he also spoke of things which were unknown to people.

    Sing to the LORD a new song,
    his praise from the ends of the earth,
    The new song may mean a new revelation. The Quran was a new revelation in a new language.

    Let the desert and its towns raise their voices;
    let the settlements where Kedar lives rejoice.
    Let the people of Sela sing for joy;
    let them shout from the mountaintops.
    This is another one of the main parts.

    The desert here means the Arabian peninsula. You'll see why. (Sometimes Arabia is referred to as the desert or the wilderness in the books of the Old Testament)

    Kedar who is mentioned here is the second son of Ishmael (pbuh). Ishmael (pbuh) is the ancestor of the Arabs and he settled in Arabia. Muhammad's (pbuh) family lineage goes back to Ishmael (pbuh).

    Kedar and his descendants settled in Ancient Northern Arabia.

    Sela is said to refer to Petra in modern day Jordan, which was part of Arabia at the time.

    This is accurate. Arabs are of three kinds. Perished Arabs, Pure Arabs and Arabized Arabs. Pure Arabs are from the Yemen. The Arabized Arabs were in central and northern Arabia. Syrians, Jordanians are all Arabs and the Prophets ancestry and that of most Arabs of the time would be connected to the Northern regions.

    "For a long time I have kept silent,
    I have been quiet and held myself back.
    This is also important.

    The Islamic belief is that after Jesus (pbuh) there was no Prophet until Muhammad (pbuh). For those Jews who didn't accept Jesus (pbuh) or Muhammad (pbuh) there hasn't been a Prophet for even longer.

    The LORD will march out like a mighty man,
    like a warrior he will stir up his zeal;
    with a shout he will raise the battle cry
    and will triumph over his enemies.
    This is one of Muhammad's (pbuh) distinctions. He wasn't the only Prophet who fought wars but he was one of the ones who did. Muhammad (pbuh) was a warrior as well as a Prophet, politician, reformer, teacher, family man.

    So the mention was of a prophet who will be a warrior.

    Also it is mentioned that he will triumph. Many Prophets did not triumph, some of them died before they trimphed, other were killed and others were exiled. Muhammad (pbuh) was one of the Prophets who triumphed.

    But those who trust in idols,
    who say to images, 'You are our gods,'
    will be turned back in utter shame.
    This is another remarkable mention. It tells us that he will fight against people who will be idol worshippers. Muhammad's people were idol worshippers and he fought them and he triumphed.

    So if i asked you to name me the Arabian Prophet who directed his Prophethood towards all people. Who came after there was no Prophet for along time. Who came with a new revelation. Who was a warrior. Whose people were idol worshippers. Who triumphed. You would have just described the story of Muhammad (pbuh) precisely.
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    (Original post by roots)
    Im going to quote to you from Isaiah 42. Its a book of prophecies from the Old Testament. Trust me this isn't like other prophecies you hear about. Im making a bold claim so what im putting forward must be strong.

    I'll go through it in parts. Its long but i've tried to keep it simple.



    In Arabic "chosen one" or "mine elect" translates into Mustapha. This was one of the names of Muhammad (pbuh)



    These part predicts that he will come with a new law. "His law" Implying that it is different from the current law.



    This is a main part.

    Light for the gentiles means a Prophet for all people.



    This is one of the distinctions about Muhammad (pbuh). He gave the same message as all of the earlier Prophets but he also spoke of things which were unknown to people.



    The new song may mean a new revelation. The Quran was a new revelation in a new language.



    This is another one of the main parts.

    The desert here means the Arabian peninsula. You'll see why. (Sometimes Arabia is referred to as the desert or the wilderness in the books of the Old Testament)

    Kedar who is mentioned here is the second son of Ishmael (pbuh). Ishmael (pbuh) is the ancestor of the Arabs and he settled in Arabia. Muhammad's (pbuh) family lineage goes back to Ishmael (pbuh).

    Kedar and his descendants settled in Ancient Northern Arabia.

    Sela is said to refer to Petra in modern day Jordan, which was part of Arabia at the time.

    This is accurate. Arabs are of three kinds. Perished Arabs, Pure Arabs and Arabized Arabs. Pure Arabs are from the Yemen. The Arabized Arabs were in central and northern Arabia. Syrians, Jordanians are all Arabs and the Prophets ancestry and that of most Arabs of the time would be connected to the Northern regions.



    This is also important.

    The Islamic belief is that after Jesus (pbuh) there was no Prophet until Muhammad (pbuh). For those Jews who didn't accept Jesus (pbuh) or Muhammad (pbuh) there hasn't been a Prophet for even longer.



    This is one of Muhammad's (pbuh) distinctions. He wasn't the only Prophet who fought wars but he was one of the ones who did. Muhammad (pbuh) was a warrior as well as a Prophet, politician, reformer, teacher, family man.

    So the mention was of a prophet who will be a warrior.

    Also it is mentioned that he will triumph. Many Prophets did not triumph, some of them died before they trimphed, other were killed and others were exiled. Muhammad (pbuh) was one of the Prophets who triumphed.



    This is another remarkable mention. It tells us that he will fight against people who will be idol worshippers. Muhammad's people were idol worshippers and he fought them and he triumphed.

    So if i asked you to name me the Arabian Prophet who directed his Prophethood towards all people. Who came after there was no Prophet for along time. Who came with a new revelation. Who was a warrior. Whose people were idol worshippers. Who triumphed. You would have just described the story of Muhammad (pbuh) precisely.
    TL;DR

    I know it's a load of crap anyway, Muhammed (if he existed) was just a normal bloke like you or I, nothing more, nothing less.:yep:
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    Quite frankly the notion of proving the truth of the Quran beyond doubt is completely inconceivable so its a silly question, furthermore if it were proved truthful that it is the word of god then its not so much a question of would you follow its preachings, but well, there is a real god, the entire history of man would be turned upside down.
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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Well yes, I agree - if an ordinary human has written some scripture, there's no need to blindly trust it. But many people don't believe that their scripture was written by ordinary humans, they believe it was written by God. For example, the Qur'an says something along the lines of "Nobody could have produced this Qur'an except for Allah".

    Out of interest, where do Sikh's get their religion from? Isn't it a result of scripture which has been written by Guru's, who are human?
    each to thier own then
    yeah im pretty sure thats where it comes from...like i said, i was raised as a sikh...whether i completely believe it is a whole different story...
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    (Original post by Cesare Borgia)
    TL;DR

    I know it's a load of crap anyway, Muhammed (if he existed) was just a normal bloke like you or I, nothing more, nothing less.:yep:
    You should read it.

    A normal bloke who was not only one of the greatest teachers, reformers and politicians but also a man who was a military leader who would himself fight on the frontline. The non Muslim must also make him the one of the greatest authors of all time as they attribute the Quran to him.

    I made this post a while ago. It lists his accomplishments. There are a few quotes by non Muslims as well.

    These are his lists of achievements from a Non Muslim viewpoint.

    Great leader, perhaps the greatest leader in history.

    Great military leader.

    Great author. Authored the Quran, the most influential book in the world, the standard of excellence in Arabic.

    Great social reformer.

    Great politician.

    Great religious devotee.

    Great orator.

    Great scientist.

    Great prophet. (prophecies)

    Utterly powerful character.

    A man who completely transformed Arabia within his lifetime.

    Ended racism.

    Great teacher, perhaps the greatest.

    Great preacher.

    Undoubtedly the greatest ability to inspire.

    Great family man.

    Great discipline. Lived completely frugally.

    "The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab."
    Edward Gibbon 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'


    Greatest mediator, problem solver.

    "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness"
    George Bernard Shaw


    The Non Muslim has to give him more credit than the Muslim does in fact.

    Here are some Non Muslim views of Muhammad (pbuh)

    Reverend Bosworth Smith in 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism,' London, 1874.

    "Head of the State as well as the Church, he was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without the Pope's pretensions, and Caesar without the legions of Caesar, without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a police force, without a fixed revenue. If ever a man ruled by a right divine, it was Muhammad, for he had all the powers without their supports. He cared not for the dressings of power. The simplicity of his private life was in keeping with his public life."
    Reverend Bosworth Smith: 'Muhammad and Muhammadanism'


    "Never has a man set for himself, voluntarily or involuntarily, a more sublime aim, since this aim was superhuman; to subvert superstitions which had been imposed between man and his Creator, to render God unto man and man unto God; to restore the rational and sacred idea of divinity amidst the chaos of the material and disfigured gods of idolatry, then existing. Never has a man undertaken a work so far beyond human power with so feeble means, for he (Muhammad) had in the conception as well as in the execution of such a great design, no other instrument than himself and no other aid except a handful of men living in a corner of the desert. Finally, never has a man accomplished such a huge and lasting revolution in the world, because in less than two centuries after its appearance, Islam, in faith and in arms, reigned over the whole of Arabia, and conquered, in God's name, Persia Khorasan, Transoxania, Western India, Syria, Egypt, Abyssinia, all the known continent of Northern Africa, numerous islands of the Mediterranean Sea, Spain, and part of Gaul.
    Alphonse de LaMartaine: Historie de la Turquie


    The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History by Michael Hart. Number 1 is Muhamamd (pbuh)
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    ^And he also could breathe fire, never lied, and could command animals with his mind.
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    (Original post by TShadow383)
    ^And he also could breathe fire, never lied, and could command animals with his mind.
    Is that an argument against what it says or an irrelevant joke. :p:
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    (Original post by ZizAli)
    It is easy to tell from this thread the different quality of humans on show. There is the OP asking for fellow students opinions. There are a few decent people either agreeing with the OP or opposing the OP's information and view point. And then there is the overwhelming majority of sadistic people who think they are superior and ultra cool by being aggressive and attempting to produce humour for their low quality counter parts to enjoy.
    How are you brother? How have things been going?
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    (Original post by roots)
    Is that an argument against what it says or an irrelevant joke. :p:
    They were claims with roughly the same basis in fact.

    There are maybe a couple of those which I'd give you as true or half-true, but mostly they're thoroughly laughable.
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    I'd kill myself and hopefully take Allah with me.
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    OP, most people here don't care about your religion. Please stop advertising this nonsense.
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    Great leader, perhaps the greatest leader in history.

    Great military leader. - hardly Alexander the Great, Gaius Julius Caesar or General Patton, is he?

    Great author. Authored the Quran, the most influential book in the world, the standard of excellence in Arabic. - actually, even though I disagree with it's message as well, the Bible is the most widely reproduced book in the world, and shaped a lot of thinking in the era of European colonisation, which has shaped every corner of the world - even/especially the modern Middle East. Also, whilst how many copies have been reproduced can provide a useful guesstimate of how influential the book has been, it does not tell the whole truth. A single copy of a single book could influence one person so greatly that they go on to change the world.

    Great social reformer. - yeah, by sanctioning the stoning of women, executions of homosexuals, even including the handy concept of Jihad [there is no such thing a Holy War]. Great social reforms, bro! I can really see how the world is doing so well when a quarter of it's population is blinded by a single religion [although the 2bn Christians, 800m Hindus, etc. don't help]

    Great politician. - this is not a compliment

    Great religious devotee. - that's a good thing . . . how?

    Great orator. - he may have had the gift of the gab, but he should have used it to spout some sense

    Great scientist. - no, great scientists are people like Darwin, Kelvin, Newton, Curie, Vesalius, Pascal, Bohr, Einstein, Rutherford . . . not some two-bit religious nutjob from the middle of the 1st millennium AD.

    Great prophet. (prophecies) - so is the mental bloke at the corner of my street

    Utterly powerful character. - what does this even mean?

    A man who completely transformed Arabia within his lifetime. - yeah, probably for the worse.

    Ended racism. - . . . as long as you accepted Islam.

    Great teacher, perhaps the greatest. - my sixth form English teacher is without a doubt the greatest teacher of all time! Without actually being there to listen to his methods, it is impossible to accurately make a value judgement of teaching ability.

    Great preacher. - so is the mental bloke at the corner of my street

    Undoubtedly the greatest ability to inspire.

    Great family man. - good for him. Unfortunately, that has no bearing on anything else he has ever done, ever.

    Great discipline. Lived completely frugally. - so do students, poor people . . . it's not hard really.

    Greatest mediator, problem solver.
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    (Original post by roots)
    You should read it.

    A normal bloke who was not only one of the greatest teachers, reformers and politicians but also a man who was a military leader who would himself fight on the frontline. The non Muslim must also make him the one of the greatest authors of all time as they attribute the Quran to him.

    I made this post a while ago. It lists his accomplishments. There are a few quotes by non Muslims as well.

    YOUR POST:
    -----------------
    These are his lists of achievements from a Non Muslim viewpoint.

    Great leader, perhaps the greatest leader in history.

    Great military leader.

    Great author. Authored the Quran, the most influential book in the world, the standard of excellence in Arabic.

    Great social reformer.

    Great politician.

    Great religious devotee.

    Great orator.

    Great scientist.

    Great prophet. (prophecies)

    Utterly powerful character.

    A man who completely transformed Arabia within his lifetime.

    Ended racism.

    Great teacher, perhaps the greatest.

    Great preacher.

    Undoubtedly the greatest ability to inspire.

    Great family man.
    Great discipline. Lived completely frugally.

    "The good sense of Muhammad despised the pomp of royalty. The Apostle of God submitted to the menial offices of the family; he kindled the fire; swept the floor; milked the ewes; and mended with his own hands his shoes and garments. Disdaining the penance and merit of a hermit, he observed without effort of vanity the abstemious diet of an Arab."
    Edward Gibbon 'The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire'

    Greatest mediator, problem solver.

    "I believe that if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness"
    George Bernard Shaw

    The Non Muslim has to give him more credit than the Muslim does in fact.

    ----------------

    :toofunny:

    I highlighted the most idiotic points. Do not tell me how much credit I should give this man. You're seriously delusional.

    I also don't see how being married to several women, including a small child, makes him a great family man. :confused:
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    I try my best to follow its all principals and i am feeling better.
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    Nope, because no religion is the truth
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    No. If it was all entirely true I would rebel and try to destroy any being who thinks he can enslave me.
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    (Original post by -starlight-)
    YOUR POST:
    -----------------

    Great scientist

    Ended racism.

    Great family man.

    The Non Muslim has to give him more credit than the Muslim does in fact.

    ----------------

    :toofunny:

    I highlighted the most idiotic points. Do not tell me how much credit I should give this man. You're seriously delusional.

    I also don't see how being married to several women, including a small child, makes him a great family man. :confused:
    Hi.

    You must make him one of the greatest scientists. The Quran contains dozens of scientific phenomenon most of which have been recently confirmed. Muslims don't believe he was a great scientist as we don't make him the author of the Quran. Also he was an unlettered scientist. Most Arabs were illiterate.

    Islam doesn't recognise the superiority of one race over the other.

    This man was a leader, politician, prophet, teacher, warrior, preacher and still had the time to lead a happy family life, still found the time to do jobs around his home.

    Marrying several women does not make you a bad person. Its something which is rare and society rejects. In Islam once a person reaches sexual maturity they are not a child. If you raise your children to play with toys etc for 10 years they aren't going to be mature are they. If you put a child in a tough environment and teach them then they will be mature. If you live in this society, you might not be mature for longer still.

    You also have to make him the author of the Quran. One of the most influential books ever written, the standard of excellence in Arabic. You also must give him credit for his own speech seperate from the Quran, which was memorised, for its difference to the language of the Quran and for its own excellence which is unmatched. The Arabic of the Quran is superior to the arabic used by the Prophet and the arabic used by the Prophet is superior to arabic as used by others. You will have to study Arabic to see this.
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    (Original post by roots)
    Hi.

    You must make him one of the greatest scientists. The Quran contains dozens of scientific phenomenon most of which have been recently confirmed. Muslims don't believe he was a great scientist as we don't make him the author of the Quran. Also he was an unlettered scientist. Most Arabs were illiterate.

    .......

    You also have to make him the author of the Quran. One of the most influential books ever written, the standard of excellence in Arabic.
    lets take these two, if the arabic can be interpretated many different ways as you must admitt it has, then you can twist it into anything
 
 
 
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