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If Islam is the truth, would you follow it? watch

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    (Original post by rrea436)
    lets take these two, if the arabic can be interpretated many different ways as you must admitt it has, then you can twist it into anything
    Hi. You've only discussed the first point.

    When you're discussing the scientific aspect of the Quran you're referring to is the meanings of individual words. In Arabic words can have many meanings. These meanings can be found in classic dictionaries.

    The Quran cannot be interpreted in many ways, some parts can be, yes.

    There is a methodology for extracting rules from texts.

    ""The linguistic structure of the text in Quran and Sunnah varies from one style to another. Some examples of these linguistic styles are: Thanniy (lit speculation, doubt an evidence which has more than one meaning or an evidence which is not conclusive in proof.), Qatai (definitive text), Amm (unspecified text), Khass (specific text), Haqiqi (literal text), and Majaazi (metaphorical text).""

    There are scholars who have studied the text of the Quran and Hadith in alot of depth and have extracted rules from it and have classified the verses.

    The Arabic grammer has to be studied by the scholar as well, as a slight difference can change the meaning. So this has been decided.

    Also Islam is understood as it was understood by the Prophet (his sayings, narrations) and by those who were with him at the time.

    Also there is acceptable difference, and alien interpretations which modernists give or the uneducated person will give.

    The interpretations came afterwards. The main body of the Muslims are in agreement, the only people who are not are people who innovated and try to mix Islam with an outside source. This was a problem for the early generations and it is also now. For example noone gives his opinion if we have the opinion of a companion who was present with the Prophet, likewise noone accepts the opinion of anyone who conflicts with those more qualified and noone accepts the opinion of the person who is not qualified at all.

    The Islaam of the Prophet, his companions, the righteous early scholars, the righteous later scholars and those who follow the example of the Prophet is the same.
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    I wouldn't subscribe to such a misogynistic, homophobic (etc.) religion, even if Allah did exist.
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    (Original post by roots)
    Hi.

    You must make him one of the greatest scientists. The Quran contains dozens of scientific phenomenon most of which have been recently confirmed. Muslims don't believe he was a great scientist as we don't make him the author of the Quran. Also he was an unlettered scientist. Most Arabs were illiterate.

    Islam doesn't recognise the superiority of one race over the other.

    This man was a leader, politician, prophet, teacher, warrior, preacher and still had the time to lead a happy family life, still found the time to do jobs around his home.

    Marrying several women does not make you a bad person. Its something which is rare and society rejects. In Islam once a person reaches sexual maturity they are not a child. If you raise your children to play with toys etc for 10 years they aren't going to be mature are they. If you put a child in a tough environment and teach them then they will be mature. If you live in this society, you might not be mature for longer still.

    You also have to make him the author of the Quran. One of the most influential books ever written, the standard of excellence in Arabic. You also must give him credit for his own speech seperate from the Quran, which was memorised, for its difference to the language of the Quran and for its own excellence which is unmatched. The Arabic of the Quran is superior to the arabic used by the Prophet and the arabic used by the Prophet is superior to arabic as used by others. You will have to study Arabic to see this.
    Buddhism doesn't recognise the superiority of one race over another either and Buddhism is far older than Islam. Stop giving Mohammed credit for an idea he stole off some other guy.

    The Quran contains many vague statements, which can be interpreted in a way to make them appear scientific. Newton was a great scientist. Einstein was a great scientist. Please don't insult their scientific achievements by placing Mohammed on the same level.

    I never said marrying several women makes you a bad person. Don't twist my words. With regards to having multiple partners, I feel that women should have that right if men do, which is something that Islam doesn't allow. Whether a child is mature enough to have adult relationships as soon as he or she reaches puberty is arguable. Personally, I fail to see how a child whose body and mind are still underdeveloped, can be ready to have sex with someone old enough to be their father.

    Yes, I give credit to Mohammed or whoever wrote the Quran for being a good author for writing a story that fooled so many people.

    Why should I give him credit for anything else, when in my eyes, the world would be a far better place without Islam? I have no problem with you believing he is a great man, but don't tell me what to believe.
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    Yes, I am follow trying to follow the Islam
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    (Original post by -starlight-)
    Buddhism doesn't recognise the superiority of one race over another either and Buddhism is far older than Islam. Stop giving Mohammed credit for an idea he stole off some other guy.
    Hi

    That teaching of Buddhism has not had a major impact on the world. Islam's teaching about race has.

    The Quran contains many vague statements, which can be interpreted in a way to make them appear scientific. Newton was a great scientist. Einstein was a great scientist. Please don't insult their scientific achievements by placing Mohammed on the same level.
    You should study what the Quran contains. You don't believe that the Quran is revealed by God so the natural conclusion is that he is one of the greatest scientists to have lived. They are not vague, they are brief, concise, precise and contain alot of detail in a small number of words. I'm saying this after having studied it, you should do the same if you doubt that.

    Muhammad himself said this:

    Narrated Abu Huraira: "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I have been sent with Jawami al-Kalim (i.e., the shortest expression carrying the widest meanings), and I was made victorious with awe (caste into the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me and were put in my hand." Muhammad said, Jawami'-al-Kalim means that Allah expresses in one or two statements or thereabouts the numerous matters that used to be written in the books revealed before (the coming of) the Prophet. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 141)"

    “‘Allah sent down this Qur’an to command and prevent, and as a sunna to be followed and a parable. It contains your history, information about what came before you, news about what will come after you and correct judgement between you. Repetition does not wear it out and its wonders do not end. It is the Truth. It is not a jest. Whoever recites it speaks the truth. Whoever judges by it is just. Whoever argues by it wins. Whoever divides by it is equitable. Whoever acts by it is rewarded. Whoever clings to it is guided to a straight path. Allah will misguide whoever seeks guidance from other than it. Allah will destroy whoever judges by other than it. It is the Wise Remembrance, the Clear Light, the Straight Path, the Firm Rope of Allah and the Useful Healing. It is a protection for the one who clings to it and a rescue for the one who follows it. It is not crooked and so puts things straight. It does not deviate so as to be blamed. Its wonders do not cease. It does not wear out with much repetition.” (At-Tirmidhi).


    They each made one or two scientific achievements, Muhammad in comparison made dozens.

    I never said marrying several women makes you a bad person. Don't twist my words. With regards to having multiple partners, I feel that women should have that right if men do, which is something that Islam doesn't allow. Whether a child is mature enough to have adult relationships as soon as he or she reaches puberty is arguable. Personally, I fail to see how a child whose body and mind are still underdeveloped, can be ready to have sex with someone old enough to be their father.
    A woman can only have one child at a time. In that time the other partner/s would become dissatisfied. Also the identity of the child would be difficult to determine.

    Islam is for all people and for all eras. A woman having partners may be possible now in the West but this has been for a few decades in the Western world while Islaam has been here for over a thousand years.

    The Arabs were a strong people. A warrior tradition, a tough environment, a strong family unit. They developed themsleves to a high standard in memorisation. They were mentally and physically well developed. There ten is different to our ten. There 25 is different to our 25.

    Yes, I give credit to Mohammed or whoever wrote the Quran for being a good author for writing a story that fooled so many people.
    Have you read the Quran. How can you be sure that 1.6 billion people are fooled. You should read it first before saying that.

    I want to tell you a story. At the time when Muhammad's infant son died there was an eclipse. At this time the people were superstitous. Some of them believed that the eclipse had happenned because of the death of Muhammad's son. This would be the perfect opportunity for Muhammad to gain hundreds of followers. All he would have to do is lie. However he said this:

    Narrated Abu Masud, also Ibn Umar
    The Prophet said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death of someone from the people but they are two signs amongst the signs of Allah. When you see them stand up and pray." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)

    Why should I give him credit for anything else, when in my eyes, the world would be a far better place without Islam? I have no problem with you believing he is a great man, but don't tell me what to believe.
    I'm not telling you what to believe. Im only presenting my view.

    Without Islam the world would be in ruins. Western academics/intellectuals would admit this. When Islam conquered the nearby lands they freed the people of unjust and oppressive rule in some cases. Millions came to Islam after witnessing the full and proper implementation of Islam. Millions of people stopped worshipping idols. The world thrived under Islam, the world civilisation meant the Islamic world.

    Without Islam the West would still be in the dark ages also. Islamic law influenced western law. Many of the ideas which the West is proud of are from Islam, (pension, child benefit, inheritance etc) People lived in safety and security. Little to no murder, theft, criminality, divorce.
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    (Original post by Absinth)
    I wouldn't subscribe to such a misogynistic, homophobic (etc.) religion, even if Allah did exist.
    LOL someone negged me with "white girl". What relevance that has, I have no idea. And I'm not white.

    Muslims are defensive these days. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Absinth)
    LOL someone negged me with "white girl". What relevance that has, I have no idea. And I'm not white.

    Muslims are defensive these days. :rolleyes:
    Lol, I got negged earlier on with "What's the chance of you getting blown up now?"

    Yeah, your cult is SO peaceful :rolleyes:
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    Christianity and Islam both = FAIL

    both are as evil as eachother, but one is more discreet about its prejudices (however it is still evil)
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    (Original post by TShadow383)
    Lol, I got negged earlier on with "What's the chance of you getting blown up now?"

    Yeah, your cult is SO peaceful :rolleyes:
    LOL.
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    OH MY!
    (Original post by roots)
    Hi

    That teaching of Buddhism has not had a major impact on the world. Islam's teaching about race has.
    BUddhism has done much more for the eastern world than islam has for the western, what you expected them to travel months to be deemed blasphemiers?

    (Original post by roots)
    You should study what the Quran contains. You don't believe that the Quran is revealed by God so the natural conclusion is that he is one of the greatest scientists to have lived. They are not vague, they are brief, concise, precise and contain alot of detail in a small number of words. I'm saying this after having studied it, you should do the same if you doubt that.
    Muhammad himself said this:

    Narrated Abu Huraira: "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I have been sent with Jawami al-Kalim (i.e., the shortest expression carrying the widest meanings), and I was made victorious with awe (caste into the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me and were put in my hand." Muhammad said, Jawami'-al-Kalim means that Allah expresses in one or two statements or thereabouts the numerous matters that used to be written in the books revealed before (the coming of) the Prophet. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 141)"

    “‘Allah sent down this Qur’an to command and prevent, and as a sunna to be followed and a parable. It contains your history, information about what came before you, news about what will come after you and correct judgement between you. Repetition does not wear it out and its wonders do not end. It is the Truth. It is not a jest. Whoever recites it speaks the truth. Whoever judges by it is just. Whoever argues by it wins. Whoever divides by it is equitable. Whoever acts by it is rewarded. Whoever clings to it is guided to a straight path. Allah will misguide whoever seeks guidance from other than it. Allah will destroy whoever judges by other than it. It is the Wise Remembrance, the Clear Light, the Straight Path, the Firm Rope of Allah and the Useful Healing. It is a protection for the one who clings to it and a rescue for the one who follows it. It is not crooked and so puts things straight. It does not deviate so as to be blamed. Its wonders do not cease. It does not wear out with much repetition.” (At-Tirmidhi).
    i'm sorry what part of that was in anyway scientific, a bunch of metaphors, much like the rest of the silly book
    (Original post by roots)
    They each made one or two scientific achievements, Muhammad in comparison made dozens.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein

    (Original post by roots)
    A woman can only have one child at a time. In that time the other partner/s would become dissatisfied. Also the identity of the child would be difficult to determine.
    YEA womens equality FTW!!.. oh wait your against that...
    (Original post by roots)
    Islam is for all people and for all eras. A woman having partners may be possible now in the West but this has been for a few decades in the Western world while Islaam has been here for over a thousand years.
    so it is now not necessary.
    (Original post by roots)
    The Arabs were a strong people. A warrior tradition, a tough environment, a strong family unit. They developed themsleves to a high standard in memorisation. They were mentally and physically well developed. There ten is different to our ten. There 25 is different to our 25.
    A 10 YEAR OLD IS A FREAKEN 10 YEAR OLD PEDO, I DON'T CARE IF THEY WERE JAILBAIT
    (Original post by roots)
    Have you read the Quran. How can you be sure that 1.6 billion people are fooled. You should read it first before saying that.

    I want to tell you a story. At the time when Muhammad's infant son died there was an eclipse. At this time the people were superstitous. Some of them believed that the eclipse had happenned because of the death of Muhammad's son. This would be the perfect opportunity for Muhammad to gain hundreds of followers. All he would have to do is lie. However he said this:

    Narrated Abu Masud, also Ibn Umar
    The Prophet said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death of someone from the people but they are two signs amongst the signs of Allah. When you see them stand up and pray." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)
    so he still used the eclipse to gain followers, just not to seam all powerful, and completly deluded

    (Original post by roots)
    I'm not telling you what to believe. Im only presenting my view.

    Without Islam the world would be in ruins. Western academics/intellectuals would admit this. When Islam conquered the nearby lands they freed the people of unjust and oppressive rule in some cases. Millions came to Islam after witnessing the full and proper implementation of Islam. Millions of people stopped worshipping idols. The world thrived under Islam, the world civilisation meant the Islamic world.
    wow the romans and greeks had all of that aswell, i think they shaped it more than the middle east, or else we would all be pig loving, face covering crazy people.
    (Original post by roots)
    Without Islam the West would still be in the dark ages also. Islamic law influenced western law. Many of the ideas which the West is proud of are from Islam, (pension, child benefit, inheritance etc) People lived in safety and security. Little to no murder, theft, criminality, divorce.
    i'm sorry but what makes you think there was less of this 2000 years ago, there was possibly more due to the lawlessness of socity so long ago. islam had little effect on europe, we fought against it for centurys, what gave you that idea, or did you just assume to be the root of all morals
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    (Original post by rrea436)
    OH MY!
    BUddhism has done much more for the eastern world than islam has for the western, what you expected them to travel months to be deemed blasphemiers?
    Are you Buddhist?

    i'm sorry what part of that was in anyway scientific, a bunch of metaphors, much like the rest of the silly book
    It wasn't supposed tobe metaphorical. I was just drawing some statements to your attention.

    YEA womens equality FTW!!.. oh wait your against that...
    1400 years ago Islam gave women the right to own property, earn wealth, keep her own wealth, custody of children, right to divorce, inheritance, education. Most of these rights were not in place 100 or so years ago in this country.

    Islaam places limits on men and women. There are diiferent rules for each because they are different. There are different rules for them because they are better at different things. There are different rules because a society where both men and women work even though they don't need to does not work, who will have children, who will raise the children.

    so it is now not necessary.
    You've misunderstood. Islaam is for all times so its teachings have to be applicable in all times. The exception is in this part of the world at this time.

    so he still used the eclipse to gain followers, just not to seam all powerful, and completly deluded
    He didn't use it to gain followers but he could have done. All he had to say was yes and people would have accepted him.

    wow the romans and greeks had all of that aswell, i think they shaped it more than the middle east, or else we would all be pig loving, face covering crazy people.
    I haven't insulted you in any way or mocked you. I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.

    i'm sorry but what makes you think there was less of this 2000 years ago, there was possibly more due to the lawlessness of socity so long ago. islam had little effect on europe, we fought against it for centurys, what gave you that idea, or did you just assume to be the root of all morals
    I'm sorry i didn't make myself clear. I'm not saying that there was lots of murder and chaos everywhere before Islaam but in an Islamic community there is very little crime.

    Islaam has had a great effect on Europe my friend. Muslims took the scientific work of the past, translated them and developed them. Muslim Spain was the first glimpse Europe had of modern civilisation. Norman Law was influenced by Islamic law. Islaam opened Europes eyes to lots of new things.

    This is a good documentary by the BBC i think.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIXx2...eature=related
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    (Original post by roots)
    Are you Buddhist?
    No i was raised a christian


    It wasn't supposed tobe metaphorical. I was just drawing some statements to your attention.
    I still don't fully understand why you gave me those statements though


    1400 years ago Islam gave women the right to own property, earn wealth, keep her own wealth, custody of children, right to divorce, inheritance, education. Most of these rights were not in place 100 or so years ago in this country.
    but it still stoned them for sleeping with other men when men were allowed multiple wives
    Islaam places limits on men and women. There are diiferent rules for each because they are different. There are different rules for them because they are better at different things. There are different rules because a society where both men and women work even though they don't need to does not work, who will have children, who will raise the children.
    i don't quite gat this so the current british system where my perents both work does not work?


    You've misunderstood. Islaam is for all times so its teachings have to be applicable in all times. The exception is in this part of the world at this time.
    then it's not exactially aplicible for all times and places


    He didn't use it to gain followers but he could have done. All he had to say was yes and people would have accepted him.
    so he told people to continue worshipping allah because he had no idea what it was, a "miricale" as it would have been called


    I haven't insulted you in any way or mocked you. I'd appreciate it if you'd do the same.
    sorry my statement was indead uncalled for and so i apoligise


    I'm sorry i didn't make myself clear. I'm not saying that there was lots of murder and chaos everywhere before Islaam but in an Islamic community there is very little crime.
    Sorry again but can i please see some proof for this claim, it can bee said likewise that muslims in britain want to impose shariah law destroying our culture ( i know thats tosh but you see why i ask you to back it with evidence)
    Islaam has had a great effect on Europe my friend. Muslims took the scientific work of the past, translated them and developed them. Muslim Spain was the first glimpse Europe had of modern civilisation. Norman Law was influenced by Islamic law. Islaam opened Europes eyes to lots of new things.
    i'll allow you the massive culture and economic wealth in spain but the rest of europe frowned upon it evident when it was destroyed, and almost all of the identidy of it's past was destroyed, I belived that Norman law was based on a fudel system dating back to the roman empire. Yes Islam opened europes eyes but it did not like what it saw
    This is a good documentary by the BBC i think.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIXx2...eature=related
    comments above
    watched the first part of that doc. i'll mention it later when i get back to the other 11 parts
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    No i was raised a christian
    Cool

    I still don't fully understand why you gave me those statements though
    Originally we were dicussing the possibility of multiple meanings. Those statements discuss that.

    but it still stoned them for sleeping with other men when men were allowed multiple wives
    Men can also be given the punishment. There relations with them were within marriage.

    The punishment can only be given if 4 reliable witnesses see the actual act of penetration clearly or if the husband sees the act and swears 4 times or if the person voluntarily confesses 4 times. The times when the punishment for adultery was carried out in the time of the Prophet was because of voluntary confession. In reality it is almost impossible that the above conditions will be met. The rules limit the use of the punishment to as little as possible but at same time the rules are an effective deterrant as peopel know that the punishment will be used if the conditions are met.

    then it's not exactially aplicible for all times and places
    The rule isn't going to be deleted due to a few places. The rule was able to work in the past and can work continually. However if women had multiple wives this wouldn't have worked in the past and still may not in the future. It can be applied but people have to choose it. It can apply today but people have to choose to implement it.

    This is all discussing the identity of children. However allowing it would still be problematic. How many men would want it.

    If women were to marry 3 or 4 men then if men also had 3 wives then there would be no concept of relationships. Everyone would just be sleeping with everyone. There would be no stability, everyone would be coming and going.

    Similarly if one woman had 4 partners then the birth rate would be low and many women would go without partners.

    The way proposed by Islam avoids all these problems and tries to create a systen where everyone is in a stable and satisfying relationship.

    sorry my statement was indead uncalled for and so i apoligise
    No problem.

    Sorry again but can i please see some proof for this claim, it can bee said likewise that muslims in britain want to impose shariah law destroying our culture ( i know thats tosh but you see why i ask you to back it with evidence)
    The evidence is in the rules themselves. If a thief knows that if he steals his hand will be cut off, he will never steal. If a murderer knows that he will not get life but will be punished then he/she will not murder. The system works because the punishments act as an effective deterrant and because the punishments are taken seriously. America has the death penalty but the punishment isn't taken seriously because people know it probabaly won't be used.

    i'll allow you the massive culture and economic wealth in spain but the rest of europe frowned upon it evident when it was destroyed, and almost all of the identidy of it's past was destroyed, I belived that Norman law was based on a fudel system dating back to the roman empire. Yes Islam opened europes eyes but it did not like what it saw
    It wasn't based on it but was influenced by it in some areas.

    watched the first part of that doc. i'll mention it later when i get back to the other 11 parts
    There used to be other documetaries available on yourube about the contribution of Muslims in terms of science, inventions etc which were quite decent but they don't seem to be available anymore.
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    (Original post by roots)
    The punishment can only be given if 4 reliable witnesses see the actual act of penetration clearly or if the husband sees the act and swears 4 times or if the person voluntarily confesses 4 times. The times when the punishment for adultery was carried out in the time of the Prophet was because of voluntary confession. In reality it is almost impossible that the above conditions will be met. The rules limit the use of the punishment to as little as possible but at same time the rules are an effective deterrant as peopel know that the punishment will be used if the conditions are met.
    No it doesn't, it means that it's almost impossible to be punished for rape - also these four witnesses have to be male, at least in saudi arabia and iran. If a rapist can get away with it anywhere that less than four men are watching, that's pretty disgraceful don't you think?

    (Original post by roots)
    If women were to marry 3 or 4 men then if men also had 3 wives then there would be no concept of relationships. Everyone would just be sleeping with everyone. There would be no stability, everyone would be coming and going.

    Similarly if one woman had 4 partners then the birth rate would be low and many women would go without partners.

    The way proposed by Islam avoids all these problems and tries to create a systen where everyone is in a stable and satisfying relationship.
    Again, women not equal to men - why should a relationship in which a man has four partners be any more stable than a relationship in which a woman has four partners?
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    (Original post by roots)
    Hi

    That teaching of Buddhism has not had a major impact on the world. Islam's teaching about race has.



    You should study what the Quran contains. You don't believe that the Quran is revealed by God so the natural conclusion is that he is one of the greatest scientists to have lived. They are not vague, they are brief, concise, precise and contain alot of detail in a small number of words. I'm saying this after having studied it, you should do the same if you doubt that.

    Muhammad himself said this:

    Narrated Abu Huraira: "I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "I have been sent with Jawami al-Kalim (i.e., the shortest expression carrying the widest meanings), and I was made victorious with awe (caste into the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the earth were brought to me and were put in my hand." Muhammad said, Jawami'-al-Kalim means that Allah expresses in one or two statements or thereabouts the numerous matters that used to be written in the books revealed before (the coming of) the Prophet. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 141)"

    “‘Allah sent down this Qur’an to command and prevent, and as a sunna to be followed and a parable. It contains your history, information about what came before you, news about what will come after you and correct judgement between you. Repetition does not wear it out and its wonders do not end. It is the Truth. It is not a jest. Whoever recites it speaks the truth. Whoever judges by it is just. Whoever argues by it wins. Whoever divides by it is equitable. Whoever acts by it is rewarded. Whoever clings to it is guided to a straight path. Allah will misguide whoever seeks guidance from other than it. Allah will destroy whoever judges by other than it. It is the Wise Remembrance, the Clear Light, the Straight Path, the Firm Rope of Allah and the Useful Healing. It is a protection for the one who clings to it and a rescue for the one who follows it. It is not crooked and so puts things straight. It does not deviate so as to be blamed. Its wonders do not cease. It does not wear out with much repetition.” (At-Tirmidhi).


    They each made one or two scientific achievements, Muhammad in comparison made dozens.




    A woman can only have one child at a time. In that time the other partner/s would become dissatisfied. Also the identity of the child would be difficult to determine.


    Islam is for all people and for all eras. A woman having partners may be possible now in the West but this has been for a few decades in the Western world while Islaam has been here for over a thousand years.

    The Arabs were a strong people. A warrior tradition, a tough environment, a strong family unit. They developed themsleves to a high standard in memorisation. They were mentally and physically well developed. There ten is different to our ten. There 25 is different to our 25.



    Have you read the Quran. How can you be sure that 1.6 billion people are fooled. You should read it first before saying that.

    I want to tell you a story. At the time when Muhammad's infant son died there was an eclipse. At this time the people were superstitous. Some of them believed that the eclipse had happenned because of the death of Muhammad's son. This would be the perfect opportunity for Muhammad to gain hundreds of followers. All he would have to do is lie. However he said this:

    Narrated Abu Masud, also Ibn Umar
    The Prophet said, "The sun and the moon do not eclipse because of the death of someone from the people but they are two signs amongst the signs of Allah. When you see them stand up and pray." (Sahih Al-Bukhari)



    I'm not telling you what to believe. Im only presenting my view.

    Without Islam the world would be in ruins. Western academics/intellectuals would admit this. When Islam conquered the nearby lands they freed the people of unjust and oppressive rule in some cases. Millions came to Islam after witnessing the full and proper implementation of Islam. Millions of people stopped worshipping idols. The world thrived under Islam, the world civilisation meant the Islamic world.

    Without Islam the West would still be in the dark ages also. Islamic law influenced western law. Many of the ideas which the West is proud of are from Islam, (pension, child benefit, inheritance etc) People lived in safety and security. Little to no murder, theft, criminality, divorce.
    1. Arab countries are some of the most racist countries in the world today.

    2. You clearly know nothing about science or great scientists if you dismiss Einstein and Newton as only having made one or two discoveries.

    3. We're in the 21st century now. The sole purpose of having relationships is not having children. Such viewpoints are outdated and have no place in society today. Also, a significant number of men and women today do not want children at all. The identity of the child is not difficult to deteremine. It's called DNA testing. Do you know anything about science?!

    I didn't bother reading the rest.
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    (Original post by -starlight-)
    1. Arab countries are some of the most racist countries in the world today.
    Hi.

    You're probably right. Muslims today are not like Muslims of the past.

    2. You clearly know nothing about science or great scientists if you dismiss Einstein and Newton as only having made one or two discoveries.
    I don't know their work in great detail. They are known primarily for their major achievements. They probabaly have done more than i assumed.

    3. We're in the 21st century now. The sole purpose of having relationships is not having children. Such viewpoints are outdated and have no place in society today. Also, a significant number of men and women today do not want children at all. The identity of the child is not difficult to deteremine. It's called DNA testing. Do you know anything about science?!
    Relationships don't have a sole purpose. It also isn't my view that the sole purpose of relationships is to have children.

    Yes this generation can in some parts of the world but not all. A rule isn't going to be made to suit one generation out of 100 and leave 99 unable. It makes sense to make sure the system work for 99 and for the one with a choice is left to adapt it voluntarily.

    I didn't bother reading the rest.
    I take the time to read what you write.
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    (Original post by TShadow383)
    No it doesn't, it means that it's almost impossible to be punished for rape - also these four witnesses have to be male, at least in saudi arabia and iran. If a rapist can get away with it anywhere that less than four men are watching, that's pretty disgraceful don't you think?
    We're discussing the rules for adultery not the rules for rape. :confused:

    Again, women not equal to men - why should a relationship in which a man has four partners be any more stable than a relationship in which a woman has four partners?

    Women with 4 men


    Woman can have one child at a time.

    Identity of children unknown.

    Men left sexually unsatisfied.

    Low birth rate.

    Lots of women unmarried.

    Women with 4 men and men with 4 women


    No stability.

    Everyone sleeping with each other.

    No relationships.

    Carers coming and going.

    Imagine such a situation.

    In Islaam polygamy is allowed, we don't have to do it but the benefits are obvious. Wars leave women unmarried and population threatened. Polygamy also ensures that widows have a partner who can share the burden of living costs. Polygamy also ensures that all women have a partner, otherwise there will always be women without a partner asthere are more women than men. In some societies some women choose not to marry, so this last point isn't a great problem. In an Islamic society however marriage is highly encouraged and if you don't marry you will remain sexually unsatisfied.

    Making men and women equal in the rules in every single thing is short sighted. One day society will realise this as this experiment unfolds.
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    (Original post by roots)
    We're discussing the rules for adultery not the rules for rape. :confused:
    So do you agree that the rules for rape are thoroughly disgraceful or not?



    (Original post by roots)

    Women with 4 men


    Woman can have one child at a time.

    Identity of children unknown.

    Men left sexually unsatisfied.

    Low birth rate.

    Lots of women unmarried.
    [B]
    How About I flip this around for you?

    Men with four Women


    Family unit too large to ensure stability.

    Women left sexually unsatisfied.

    Women seen as vastly subservient to men.

    Lots of Men unmarried.


    (Original post by roots)
    In an Islamic society however marriage is highly encouraged and if you don't marry you will remain sexually unsatisfied.
    Or be stoned brutally to death.


    (Original post by roots)
    Making men and women equal in the rules in every single thing is short sighted. One day society will realise this as this experiment unfolds.
    No, women have a part to play in society beyond toys for your breeding and sexual satisfaction. They are... PEOPLE :eek:
    They deserve to be treated in precisely the same manner as you or I.
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    (Original post by TShadow383)
    So do you agree that the rules for rape are thoroughly disgraceful or not?
    What rules are you actually referring to, im discussing adultery and you're discussing rape.


    How About I flip this around for you?

    Men with four Women


    Family unit too large to ensure stability.

    Women left sexually unsatisfied.

    Women seen as vastly subservient to men.

    Lots of Men unmarried.
    How about i flip it around again.

    Seperate accomodations for wives.

    Why would women be sexually unsatisfied when they have a partner.

    Being married to a man does not make you vastly subservient.

    Lots of men not unmarried because we should encourage unmarried peopel to get married first of all and secondly because only some peopel choose to have more than one partner.

    Or be stoned brutally to death.
    If you don't marry you are not stoned to death. Are you just shouting out random things without knowledge.

    No, women have a part to play in society beyond toys for your breeding and sexual satisfaction. They are... PEOPLE :eek:
    They deserve to be treated in precisely the same manner as you or I.
    Oh my. Did i say the only functions of women are breeding and sexual satisfaction.

    If you had read carefully you would have read this:

    Relationships don't have a sole purpose. It also isn't my view that the sole purpose of relationships is to have children.

    You can't treat them precisely the same because they are not precisely the same. You can't treat them precisely the same because they don't excel in precisely the same things.
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    (Original post by roots)
    What rules are you actually referring to, im discussing adultery and you're discussing rape.




    How about i flip it around again.

    Seperate accomodations for wives.

    Why would women be sexually unsatisfied when they have a partner.

    Being married to a man does not make you vastly subservient.
    Why would men be sexually unsatisfied if four of them had one female partner?
    And no, but being married, along with four other women, possibly via arranged marriages in which you have no say, to a man, does make you subservient.

    (Original post by roots)
    Lots of men not unmarried because we should encourage unmarried peopel to get married first of all and secondly because only some peopel choose to have more than one partner.
    The population is ~50/50 - so if only men can have multiple partners, how can they all get partners, there simply won't be enough women to go around.




    (Original post by roots)
    If you don't marry you are not stoned to death. Are you just shouting out random things without knowledge.
    No, I'm talking about the killing of people who have sex outside marriage.



    (Original post by roots)
    Oh my. Did i say the only functions of women are breeding and sexual satisfaction.
    Your major objections to allowing women the same freedoms as men in marriage were less sexually satisfied men and less children.

    (Original post by roots)
    If you had read carefully you would have read this:

    Relationships don't have a sole purpose. It also isn't my view that the sole purpose of relationships is to have children.

    You can't treat them precisely the same because they are not precisely the same. You can't treat them precisely the same because they don't excel in precisely the same things.
    But you also don't need to cover them from head to toe in public, you don't need to ban them from driving, you don't need to force them to marry for the sake of family honour, you don't need to kill them when they start a sexual relationship with someone they love outside of marriage.

    Women should have equal rights to men. How do you argue with that?
 
 
 
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