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Protesters stage mass overdose outside Boots watch

  • View Poll Results: Homeopathy
    It works
    15
    10.95%
    I have no opinion
    25
    18.25%
    It's a con... A fool and his money are soon parted!
    97
    70.80%

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    14
    I agree with those who have said that the use of homoeopathy on the NHS is far more important an issue than its sale by a private company.
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    (Original post by Dora the Dagger)
    Sometimes all that is needed is the belief that you will get better.
    I'll remember that next time I get eczema, or tonsilitis, or pneumonia, or cancer.
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    (Original post by Batmaz)
    I'll remember that next time I get eczema, or tonsilitis, or pneumonia, or cancer.
    I'm not saying always.
    And I'm not saying everyone.

    I started my sentence "sometimes"...
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    (Original post by Dora the Dagger)
    I'm not saying always.
    And I'm not saying everyone.

    I started my sentence "sometimes"...
    My point was, I can't think of any disease or affliction with a clearly pathological pathway that can be made better by believing that you will. There are a lot of so called "cures" for the common cold that appear to work, but that's because a cold gets better anyway very quickly, whether you take anything or not, whether you believe it will or not. Pain is subjective, but in the majority of cases you cannot eliminate pain completely just by willing it to go away. (God knows when I had an ear absess I was wishing and wishing it would get better, and then it did. Funnily enough, when it got better coincided with when they started giving me intravenous antibiotics.)
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    I'm not talking about everything. Obviously, your ear absess wouldn't be healed by sitting there and hoping it'd go away. But there are many people who suffer from pain which is psychosomatic: brought on, or exacerbated, by their own mind rather than a physical malfunction or pathogen. It is in these cases that believeing you will get better, or trusting someone who says you will, that you can be "healed".

    See:

    http://www.newscientist.com/article/...html?full=true

    or if you can't be bothered to read that whole thing glance at:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo
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    Why should I care if someone wants to buy homeopathic remedies? Surely Boots would only sell them if there's a market, and people would only buy them if they thought that they worked, so why stop selling something that makes them feel better even if it is the placebo effect? And as for lying on the packaging- how many times has skin cream that you've bought actually made you look ten years younger, or new trainers made your performance 8 times better? Everyone now exaggerates their products massively so surely homeopaths should be able to as well
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    (Original post by Dora the Dagger)
    I'm not talking about everything. Obviously, your ear absess wouldn't be healed by sitting there and hoping it'd go away. But there are many people who suffer from pain which is psychosomatic: brought on, or exacerbated, by their own mind rather than a physical malfunction or pathogen. It is in these cases that believeing you will get better, or trusting someone who says you will, that you can be "healed".
    So are you suggesting that it is ethical to prescribe placebos to patients, whilst deceiving them into thinking it is a valid remedy?

    (Original post by Holly Hiskey)
    Why should I care if someone wants to buy homeopathic remedies? Surely Boots would only sell them if there's a market, and people would only buy them if they thought that they worked, so why stop selling something that makes them feel better even if it is the placebo effect?
    One of the first logical fallacies you make is argument ad populi, something must work if enough people believe in it and buy it.

    You sound like the people who say things like 'who does it hurt?' It doesn't hurt when you take the remedies for a cold or back pain, but when people start to get seriously ill and still take homeopathy, it starts to get dangerous.

    These people were homeopaths who treated their baby daughter's eczema with homeopathy. She eventually died, because the treatment does NOTHING. But a quick google search for 'eczema baby homeopathy' brings up 5 websites offering such remedies, with this tragic news story listing much further down the page. People don't understand the dangers.
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    (Original post by didgeridoo12uk)
    there have been rigorous drug trials that prove beyond all reasonable doubt ...
    New rule - if you mentioned studies or similar, then provide a link, otherwise it's just ********.

    (Original post by didgeridoo12uk)
    ...they are completely useless, and are nothing more than a placebo.
    Well they can't be both! Which is it, a placebo or useless?
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    (Original post by Batmaz)
    Surely Boots would only sell them if there's a market, and people would only buy them if they thought that they worked, so why stop selling something that makes them feel better even if it is the placebo effect?
    One of the first logical fallacies you make is argument ad populi, something must work if enough people believe in it and buy it.
    Haha, they didn't say that at all. Notice the part in bold.

    ---------

    I know people who use homeopathic remedies and report that they work very well. I'm not about to go and try to convince them that actually, no, they're wrong and they ought to go back to feeling worse please.

    Everyone just stop being such whiney *****. What treatments the NHS endorses and provides should never be an issue for the ignorant masses to decide, haha. And as for shops selling them, then gtfo completely. As someone mentioned above, ******** claims are on pretty much every product you buy - we'd have to overhaul our entire society to get rid of them.
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    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    New rule - if you mentioned studies or similar, then provide a link, otherwise it's just ********.

    Well they can't be both! Which is it, a placebo or useless?
    there are plenty of papers on it.
    http://www.thelancet.com/journals/la...177-2/fulltext


    and its useless in the sense that it only acts as a placebo, but claims to do so much more
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    (Original post by Batmaz)
    So are you suggesting that it is ethical to prescribe placebos to patients, whilst deceiving them into thinking it is a valid remedy?


    One of the first logical fallacies you make is argument ad populi, something must work if enough people believe in it and buy it.

    You sound like the people who say things like 'who does it hurt?' It doesn't hurt when you take the remedies for a cold or back pain, but when people start to get seriously ill and still take homeopathy, it starts to get dangerous.

    These people were homeopaths who treated their baby daughter's eczema with homeopathy. She eventually died, because the treatment does NOTHING. But a quick google search for 'eczema baby homeopathy' brings up 5 websites offering such remedies, with this tragic news story listing much further down the page. People don't understand the dangers.
    I never said that if people think it works then it must work, I was merely trying to say that no-one I know would use homeopathy as a replacement for "proper" medicine, but at the same time if people want a more natural alternative and they feel that it helps then surely flling that requirement is what Boot, a large company, is going to do. Maybe they should make it more clear on the packets, but as I said, most people are probably capable of working it out for themselves. Plus the homeopaths who failed to treat their child properly have to be the exception to the rule; most parents would take their child to A&E or the doctors
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    If they all died that would be one hell of a way to be proven wrong.

    Imagine that.
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    I don't even disagree that homeopathy is utter crap, but 'over dosing' on it and coming to no harm proves nothing. Water is good for you, but you need to drink like 5 ltrs of it in 5 minutes to come to any harm.
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    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    Well they can't be both! Which is it, a placebo or useless?
    I'm not sure that you understand how medical trials work. If something is no better than a placebo then it DOESN'T WORK. A placebo is nothing, it isn't a treatment for anything.

    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    Haha, they didn't say that at all. Notice the part in bold.
    I'm glad you find that funny, but I understood what they were saying. Because there's a market for it and some people think it will work then it's ok to sell it. That's an argument ad populi. Just because people want it and think it works doesn't mean it does, and isn't a good reason to sell it.

    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I don't even disagree that homeopathy is utter crap, but 'over dosing' on it and coming to no harm proves nothing.
    The point of the demonstration was to show that there was no active ingredient in it that does anything to your body. On the bottles of homeopathic remedies they warn you to contact a doctor if you overdose, yet there's nothing in the remedy that isn't just water and sugar. James Randi, the inspiration for this, regularly downs a whole bottle of homeopathic sleeping pills at the beginning of his lectures then completes the whole talk without even yawning. The point is, they do nothing to the body, and this isn't a scientific experiment, it's a protest because the facts are already out there, people just don't know them.

    There are so many things wrong with homeopathy, besides the fact that there is nothing in them. Next is the 'like cures like' idea, which has never been proven to work at all, and the 'succession' and 'water memory', which has never been proven.
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    (Original post by Batmaz)
    I'm not sure that you understand how medical trials work. If something is no better than a placebo then it DOESN'T WORK. A placebo is nothing, it isn't a treatment for anything.
    What a wasteful way to put it. If something's no better than a placebo then it's no better than a placebo. Placebos can "work", so we can't say that something "doesn't work" just because it's no better at "working" than a placebo.
    We have the luxury of being more descriptive than simply saying things "do work" or "do not work.

    (Original post by Batmaz)
    I'm glad you find that funny, but I understood what they were saying. Because there's a market for it and some people think it will work then it's ok to sell it. That's an argument ad populi. Just because people want it and think it works doesn't mean it does, and isn't a good reason to sell it.
    Well that's a completely different point to the one you made last time, lol:

    (Original post by Batmaz)
    One of the first logical fallacies you make is argument ad populi, something must work if enough people believe in it and buy it.
    We'll disregard your older point, then.
    Regarding false claims and selling product - you realise that would mean removing INCREDIBLE numbers of products from the shelves? Pretty much everything relating to the fitness industry, and all kinds of foods touted as having certain health benefits, most cosmetics, outdoor gear, sports equipment and **** knows what else.


    (Original post by Batmaz)
    There are so many things wrong with homeopathy, besides the fact that there is nothing in them. Next is the 'like cures like' idea, which has never been proven to work at all, and the 'succession' and 'water memory', which has never been proven.
    (Just remember that something not having been shown to work is different to it having been shown not to work.)
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    Am I wrong to say if something is as effective as a placebo then it is basically ineffective? It has no real effect on the patient. I would classify that as not working.

    Re false claims, do you really think it makes it ok for a medical treatment to make false claims because other products do it too? There are companies that deal with false claims, such as Activia which was recently sued for a hell of a lot of money. You'd be surprised how little most companies claim, mostly just making statements that it may improve your health. Homeopathy claims outright that it can cure all ailments, from diarrhea to autism.

    My original point and my later point about argument ad populi are part of the same thing. People believe that if the shops sell it and people buy, then it must be ok to sell, which implies to most people it must work. People don't question things when they are widely accepted, and Boots is a reputable, hundred year old company that people trust. They are abusing that trust by providing substandard therapies and advertising them as 'alternative' or 'complimentary'.

    You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work? Medicine.

    I agree that just because something has not been shown to work doesn't mean it doesn't work. But plenty of trials have been carried out that show homeopathy fails across the board, with different ailments and remedies tested. Also, a lot of the proposed mechanism for homeopathy to work violates the laws of physics and chemistry.
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    I have no problem with private companies selling homeopathic "medicine" - but I think it is fraudulent of them to suggest that it works better than a placebo. The NHS on the other hand should concentrate their public funds on actual medicine and stop giving taxpayers money to the con-men that homeopaths are.
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    (Original post by Batmaz)

    You know what they call alternative medicine that has been proved to work? Medicine.
    I never understand how debates about alternative medicine get past this point.
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    (Original post by Batmaz)
    So are you suggesting that it is ethical to prescribe placebos to patients, whilst deceiving them into thinking it is a valid remedy?
    Surely the nature of a placebo is that you can't know it's a placebo... because then it wouldn't be a placebo at all.

    It is obviously just plain stupid to treat fatal conditions which we have the technology to cure with a placebo. I guess what I'm really doing is asking whether the use of placebo could ever be safely used in medicine?
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    (Original post by Dora the Dagger)
    Surely the nature of a placebo is that you can't know it's a placebo... because then it wouldn't be a placebo at all.
    What is your point here? I was asking if it is ethical to deceive patients into thinking they are receiving real drugs. Even in medical trials they inform the subjects that some of them will receive a placebo. And what about the people who are unaffected by placebos? There is no room for prescription of placebo in our society.
 
 
 
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