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    If we are to entertain the idea that most blacks are less intelligent than most whites would this mean that all blacks are less intelligent than most whites?
    If DNA does play a role, does it also mean there are limits to intelligence?

    What evidence could be given in favour of such an idea that could be given to strengthen that argument?

    Note:I'm half way through the channel 4 program.

    I am not on either side, but have phrased the question in what I hope is a more provocative way than the inverese, which I feel is more likely to just be dismissed.
    Please only give serious replies.
    Please use valid arguments.
    Please do not refer to me as anything other than the op, I am not claiming the argument is true or false, merely asking for a debate on the matter.
    Thank you for reading, thinking about what you've read, and with any luck posting.
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    Well if you consider that a particular branch of Jews has accounted for an astronomical percentage of nobel prizes in the fields of Maths/Physics than I would say that it's hard to argue against race playing some role in intelligence.
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    There's not a whole lot of arguments you can give in favor of such a statement. Its more of an individual thing. Talking about entire races, it comes down to work ethic in my opinion. Take the example of Germany and Britain for instance. Both nations are descended from the same people, both countries have a caucasian majority but Germany as a nation is more successful than Britain today because post WW2, they adapted a better work ethic whilst British society has degenerated progressively. If that sounds outlandish, lets move a bit to the east and consider North and South Korea. The people of both countries are the same but one country is starving to death and the other is one of the fastest developing nations in the world.
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    (Original post by calvinuk)
    Well if you consider that a particular branch of Jews has accounted for an astronomical percentage of nobel prizes in the fields of Maths/Physics than I would say that it's hard to argue against race playing some role in intelligence.
    work ethic, but the thing with Jews is they aren't a race.
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    There's no link, imo. Intelligence is genetic but can also be influenced by the environment you live in too. Maybe some people you are brought up with have a strong work ethic, which rubs off on you, but intelligence isn't determined by the colour of your skin.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    If we are to entertain the idea that most blacks are less intelligent than most whites would this mean that all blacks are less intelligent than most whites?
    If DNA does play a role, does it also mean there are limits to intelligence?

    What evidence could be given in favour of such an idea that could be given to strengthen that argument?

    Note:I'm half way through the channel 4 program.

    I am not on either side, but have phrased the question in what I hope is a more provocative way than the inverese, which I feel is more likely to just be dismissed.
    Please only give serious replies.
    Please use valid arguments.
    Please do not refer to me as anything other than the op, I am not claiming the argument is true or false, merely asking for a debate on the matter.
    Thank you for reading, thinking about what you've read, and with any luck posting.
    BOLD: the two sentences contradict one another.

    OK in order to find out you would need a large sample of both black and caucasian humans and then subject them all to the same IQ test (under the same conditions, at the same time of day in order to reduce differences brought about by these variables). Then simply do a hypothesis test in order to determine whether or not one race is probably more intelligent than the other.

    By the way this isn't a racist issue (I'm just saying because I noticed you were very careful with your wording in your OP) it is a mathematical issue, which is not down to opinion. If someone doesn't like a mathematical fact, then thats tough.
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    I think it's down to culture rather than race. Asians generally tend to do better at school because their parents want their children to do better (give more encouragement for the child to learn). I know because I'm an example of this . Asians who moved to the UK often moved to make a better life for themselves. Hence naturally they want their children to improve on what they had/have.

    Also the more wealthy your upbringing the more likely you are to do at school. Children are often motivated by the success of their parents. Yes you will get those who come from a poor background and that inspires them to do well at school and get a good job, but it's much rarer.

    Blacks also tend to be better at sport. Those who are good at sport are more likely to focus more of their energies on sport rather than school, hence do less well at school. Thus that may go explaining why blacks seem to underperform at school.

    Lastly it could all be down to these stereotypes about races and intelligence. If people think blacks are less intelligent generally, doesn't really give them confidence or a motive to strive to do well at school?

    I know I've used academic performance at school to measure intelligence. But intelligence is such a hard thing to measure properly, that school performance may be the easiest way (and I've got no doubt is used to argue link between intelligence and race by scientists) to measure it.
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    (Original post by chronic_fatigue)
    work ethic, but the thing with Jews is they aren't a race.
    Yes, people seem to like getting race and religion confused don't they :p:
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    (Original post by mathperson)
    BOLD: the two sentences contradict one another.

    OK in order to find out you would need a large sample of both black and caucasian humans and then subject them all to the same IQ test (under the same conditions, at the same time of day in order to reduce differences brought about by these variables). Then simply do a hypothesis test in order to determine whether or not one race is probably more intelligent than the other.

    By the way this isn't a racist issue (I'm just saying because I noticed you were very careful with your wording in your OP) it is a mathematical issue, which is not down to opinion. If someone doesn't like a mathematical fact, then thats tough.
    They do not contradict each other as far as I can tell, if you could shed some light on that I'd be grateful.

    Furthermore that presupposes that IQ tests measure intelligence.
    As the show pointed out, and I know this isn't the most credible of sources but I've just done an essay, internet sources are hard to find anyway, so it'll do:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

    It may be a racist issue, I'm not ruling anything out. I'm just saying I haven't aligned myself either way.
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    (Original post by dfjr)
    I think it's down to culture rather than race. Asians generally tend to do better at school because their parents want their children to do better (give more encouragement for the child to learn). I know because I'm an example of this . Asians who moved to the UK often moved to make a better life for themselves. Hence naturally they want their children to improve on what they had/have.

    Also the more wealthy your upbringing the more likely you are to do at school. Children are often motivated by the success of their parents. Yes you will get those who come from a poor background and that inspires them to do well at school and get a good job, but it's much rarer.

    Blacks also tend to be better at sport. Those who are good at sport are more likely to focus more of their energies on sport rather than school, hence do less well at school. Thus that may go explaining why blacks seem to underperform at school.

    Lastly it could all be down to these stereotypes about races and intelligence. If people think blacks are less intelligent generally, doesn't really give them confidence or a motive to strive to do well at school?

    I know I've used academic performance at school to measure intelligence. But intelligence is such a hard thing to measure properly, that school performance may be the easiest way (and I've got no doubt is used to argue link between intelligence and race by scientists) to measure it.
    So you basically think it's down to expectations from the family and from social conditioning? (sorry to simplify it so much).
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    (Original post by calvinuk)
    Well if you consider that a particular branch of Jews has accounted for an astronomical percentage of nobel prizes in the fields of Maths/Physics than I would say that it's hard to argue against race playing some role in intelligence.
    Surely this obsservation makes it much more about culture - Jews segregate themselves by culture, not race.

    I agree with what the bloke said with IQ being about adjusment to modern thinking - each decade we think in concepts more. If our own IQ has increased by 40 points in hundreds of years, like he said, then what does that say about how different African subcultures are likely to be?

    I don't think the scientists arguing race affects intelligence had any valid points.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    They do not contradict each other as far as I can tell, if you could shed some light on that I'd be grateful.

    Furthermore that presupposes that IQ tests measure intelligence.
    As the show pointed out, and I know this isn't the most credible of sources but I've just done an essay, internet sources are hard to find anyway, so it'll do:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect

    It may be a racist issue, I'm not ruling anything out. I'm just saying I haven't aligned myself either way.
    Bold:

    Most blacks are less intelligent that most whites means that >50% of blacks are less intelligent that >/50% of whites (>/ means greater than or equal to).
    However, all blacks are less intelligent than most whites means 100% of blacks are less intelligent than >/50% of whites.
    Do you see the contradiction there?
    If you don't, and if you know what a normal distribution is, try drawing 2 normal distributions and see how they differ.

    It is not people being racist if statistics show it to be probably true/untrue.
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    (Original post by dfjr)
    Lastly it could all be down to these stereotypes about races and intelligence. If people think blacks are less intelligent generally, doesn't really give them confidence or a motive to strive to do well at school?
    As a black I have to agree with that, but there are some blacks like me who want to do tell despite the sterotypes, it actually encourages me to do well.
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    (Original post by chronic_fatigue)
    As a black I have to agree with that, but there are some blacks like me who want to do tell despite the sterotypes, it actually encourages me to do well.
    Hm, can't imagine how that works. I think the opposite is true - people don't tend to strive for something if it means having the world on their shoulders and everything to struggle against.

    I think you're likely to want to succeed now because there are many PoC at universities now doing the same. If you were the only one? I doubt you'd have the same motivation.

    This is why breaking down stereotypes is crucial.
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    Any correlation between race and intellegence is meaningless, this article demonstrates why: http://bostonreview.net/BR20.6/block.html
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    (Original post by mathperson)
    Bold:

    Most blacks are less intelligent that most whites means that >50% of blacks are less intelligent that >/50% of whites (>/ means greater than or equal to).
    However, all blacks are less intelligent than most whites means 100% of blacks are less intelligent than >/50% of whites.
    Do you see the contradiction there?
    If you don't, and if you know what a normal distribution is, try drawing 2 normal distributions and see how they differ.

    It is not people being racist if statistics show it to be probably true/untrue.
    If 100% of blacks are less intelligent than any white person, then the initial statement would be true.
    Because over 50% of blacks would be less intelligent than whites.
    However neither statement backs the other up. The initial statement made isn't automatically incorrect, it's just not a valid argument.
    It's open to more evidence to show or disprove the conclusion. The whole purpose of it however is to open up the readers mind to the topic at hand.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    If 100% of blacks are less intelligent than any white person, then the initial statement would be true.
    Because over 50% of blacks would be less intelligent than whites.
    However neither statement backs the other up. The initial statement made isn't automatically incorrect, it's just not a valid argument.
    It's open to more evidence to show or disprove the conclusion. The whole purpose of it however is to open up the readers mind to the topic at hand.
    BOLD: If 100% of blacks are less intelligent than any white person means that 100% of blacks are less intelligent than 100% of whites. This would mean that any white person is more intelligent than any black person, if this were true even the most intelligent black person would be less intelligent than the thickest white person.
    The statement you made after what I made bold is not what the first statement says.
    I made the inconsistency clear in my previous post, please refer back to it, thanks .

    What do you mean the initial statement isn't correct, there wasn't a statement there was a question, with no argument :confused:
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    (Original post by mathperson)
    BOLD: If 100% of blacks are less intelligent than any white person means that 100% of blacks are less intelligent than 100% of whites. This would mean that any white person is more intelligent than any black person, if this were true even the most intelligent black person would be less intelligent than the thickest white person.
    The statement you made after what I made bold is not what the first statement says.
    I made the inconsistency clear in my previous post, please refer back to it, thanks .

    What do you mean the initial statement isn't correct, there wasn't a statement there was a question, with no argument :confused:
    My aren't we feeling cocky.
    Yes, I know exactly what the question asked. However the question was done in an obvious rhetoric fashion. If you can't grasp simple concepts like that I'd suggest taking a critical thinking module.

    The statement I made was a copy and past from the op, please refer back to it.

    Edit: coming soon:

    If most blacks are less intelligent than most whites, then the majority of whites would have superior intellect.
    If most blacks were less intelligent than all whites then it would mean that all white people were more intelligent than most black people.
    E.G. The average black guy would be less intelligent than a retarded white guy.
    However some blacks may be more intelligent than that retard, perhaps even the most intelligent white guy.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    If we are to entertain the idea that most blacks are less intelligent than most whites would this mean that all blacks are less intelligent than most whites?
    If DNA does play a role, does it also mean there are limits to intelligence?

    What evidence could be given in favour of such an idea that could be given to strengthen that argument?
    No it does not mean all whites are more intelligent than most blacks; tt depends what statistics they use to reach this possible conclusion. It might be that there are more white people with very high IQ scores than black people but at the average mark there could be equal numbers. The increased number of white people with an IQ of 140+ could however increase the mean overall for that race. Such statements very much mean in general and this why such statements are very dangerous as your average person might assume the statements in the OP to work on an individual basis.

    Again no, there isn't a limit as such. The DNA could limit the rate of growth in a persons knowledge base/general intelligence or it could give the person a different basic level of intelligence without training but neither of these would affect the maximum intelligence.

    The only evidence would be large scale statistical studies, and then these aren't considered hard evidence as p (probability) never equals 0 for the null hypothesis to be incorrect and therefore it can't be absolute proof.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    My aren't we feeling cocky.
    Yes, I know exactly what the question asked. However the question was done in an obvious rhetoric fashion. If you can't grasp simple concepts like that I'd suggest taking a critical thinking module.

    The statement I made was a copy and past from the op, please refer back to it.
    Bold: I'm not trying to be cocky, I'm simply pointing out a logical inconsistency in what you said in your OP :confused:

    OK its obvious that you have begun being rude to me for some reason.

    What do you mean it was done in a rhetoric fashion, what so you didn't actually want people to answer it? I'd suggest doing a module in the English language, as oppose to critical thinking, if you want to be like that.

    It doesn't matter whether you copied and pasted it, it is still illogical. When you said in reply to my post something along the lines of "then it would be consistent", I demonstrated why what you said in your OP wasn't consistent and why what you said as a reply was also inconsistent.

    I don't know why you've suddenly started being rude OP :erm:
 
 
 
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