Turn on thread page Beta

Faith schools shouldn't receive government funding watch

    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by adamrules247)
    Some might call it morals.
    Morals which go against the government's anti-discrimination policies.

    (Original post by adamrules247)
    Not all can afford to.
    Well then that's just tough, isn't it? Everyone else manages to practice their religion outside of their education. Besides, most private schools have scholarships and bursaries to allow less wealthy children to attend them. Religious groups tend to be very charitable so I would expect they would be happier to do this even more so than non-religious private schools.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by moregano)
    Because the rich (in general) worked hard for their wealth, and therefore they should be allowed to spend their money on what they want, within reasonable limits. I know it's not fair, but that's just the way it is unfortunately. You can't take away the rights of somebody to spend their money on their own children just to try and make it fairer for everyone else. If we kept going by this line of thinking, we would have to ban Disneyland (only rich people can afford it and that's not fair); make everyone wear the same brand of clothes (so nobody would have nicer ones just because they're wealthy) etc.

    Besides, the government simply can't afford to give all children a state education. People who send their kids to private schools are paying the same taxes as people who don't, but they're not taking full advantages of the taxes they pay. So essentially they're paying for another child to go to school free of charge. Is that such a bad thing?


    Many state schools are overcrowded as it is. Making catchment areas even larger would be a disaster. I know it's not fair that not everyone can go to the best schools, but that's always going to be a problem. Society is always going to be divided by wealth to a certain extent, and there's not much we can do about that. If people want to spend money to move near to a certain school, then that's their choice. They've worked for their money and again, it's their choice how they spend it.

    Whether or not someone's parents have worked hard is irrelevant.

    I agree that you should be able to spend money on what you want within reasonable limits. I guess it's the definition of these limits that we disagree over.

    You make an interesting slippery-slope argument, but education is different to the things you have mentioned. It directly effects the future and future careers of these children. It's buying them an unfair advantage for the rest of their lives, not just a nice holiday.

    Private schools may make things easier economically, but that doesn't make them right. Also, the parents of privately educated children aren't paying for state education by choice, it's part of their compulsory taxes, don't make it out to be a selfless act.

    Convert the old private schools into state schools. The number of schools would stay the same and the number of pupils would stay the same? How would this lead to overcrowding.

    You are correct, society will always have a divide between the rich and poor, but that's not a reason to encourage it.
    Offline

    11
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by drukarale)
    A truly well argued, carefully considered and eloquent point.

    Try actually making counter arguments instead of angry rhetorical questions.

    What about the people who can't afford to send their children to private schools? Do their children deserve this poor education you're talking of?

    I would give your child an education that is as equal as possible to everyone else's. Or perhaps you think that YOUR child deserves better than everyone else, just because he's YOUR child?
    The reason that people send their children to private school is mainly due to state school not being good enough. Despite actually paying taxes that pay for the child's school, people still decide to send their children to private schools. Instead of taking away private schools, how about making state schools better, if state schools were better, I'm sure people have better things to spend £18,000 on than something they have already paid for through taxes. Also, having private schools puts more pressure (or should do) on state schools. The solution is NOT to take away private schools but to improve state schools which the government is failing at. Also on what grounds are you going to take away provate schools? "Your child isn't entitled to a good education, he has to go to the school that WE tell him to go"?

    I would also like to point out that I have not gone to a private school as much as I would probably of liked to, but am going to make sure that I work hard (Like anyone has the ability and opportunity to do) to enable my child to have a good education. I will not let the governments failure affect my child's life. Improve state schools and there would be no need for private schools. The problem does not lie in private school. This "your children doesn't deserve better education" argument doesn't work.

    If someone rich was dying and he decided to spend a large part of his money on some private doctor being flown in from Switzerland, are you going to say to him "Sorry, but you are not entitled to a better doctor then everyone else, you have to go to your local NHS?"
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Why are atheists so preoccupied with religion.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Why are atheists so preoccupied with religion.
    Because it is the root of many of the injustices and evils of the world.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Kreuzuerk)
    Because it is the root of many of the injustices and evils of the world.
    Dear God (if I'm allowed to say that) what is all of this :nah:
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Why are atheists so preoccupied with religion.
    I'm not an atheist.

    The point of the thread isn't "religious schools are bad because they teach religion", but "religious schools shouldn't be funded by the government because they discriminate against pupils and staff and encourage segregation".
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by AnythingButChardonnay)
    Of course it doesn't mean we are a country of devout Christians.
    Then personally I don't think we can be called a Christian country.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    It appears you are missing the point entirely of faith schools. Consider the fact that faith schools often perform most highly in the league tables and are a long standing British Tradition.

    Can't get into a faith school, well thats because you chose not to be religious.

    Can't afford to go to private school, is that because your parents have a bad job, or one that doesn't pay well. If so why is this. WHat qualifications do they have, can they get a better job.

    Why shouldn't they get public funding, afterall they don't charge. Surely every child deserves the best possible future, this one is open to those people who are religious and who have brought their children up in a religous community.

    The myth that all faith schools promote, homophobia, segregation etc, is absolute rubbish. Religous schools mostly promote equality and tolerance. In fact, it seems that non-religious schools are often the worst within an area, where freedom of speech is so key that people are able to say hurtful things, with minimal punishment.

    Furthermore, this rambling about anti-discrimination, I'm sorry but you dont seem to realise that this is a christian country. Also, why should you now discriminate against religions, which have been around far longer than the ideals the government promote now ahead of religions. This is discrimination in itself, consider that fact. You wouldn't pull money from inner city London schools, simply because they have too high an ethnicity and perhaps English isn't even the most popular first language.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Sith5580)
    It appears you are missing the point entirely of faith schools. Consider the fact that faith schools often perform most highly in the league tables and are a long standing British Tradition.

    Can't get into a faith school, well thats because you chose not to be religious.

    Can't afford to go to private school, is that because your parents have a bad job, or one that doesn't pay well. If so why is this. WHat qualifications do they have, can they get a better job.

    Why shouldn't they get public funding, afterall they don't charge. Surely every child deserves the best possible future, this one is open to those people who are religious and who have brought their children up in a religous community.

    The myth that all faith schools promote, homophobia, segregation etc, is absolute rubbish. Religous schools mostly promote equality and tolerance. In fact, it seems that non-religious schools are often the worst within an area, where freedom of speech is so key that people are able to say hurtful things, with minimal punishment.
    Wouldn't it make much more sense to have schools which separated children on the basis of academic/vocational attainment so that teachers can better cater for the pupils needs?
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DJ AgnieszkaA)
    we are largely a secular society, but we come from christian foundations and we should recognize those who choose to continue our traditions in this area.

    ... "meant" to be multicultural? whatever gave you the idea that we are "meant" to be multicultural?
    Think you will find Britain's oldest foundations were actually pagan.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    Out of all the school's where I live there are three which are pretty decent. The local private school, state-funded christian school and private muslim school.
    Good enough for me; if my school had recieved funding, then it would have saved me around 5-10 grand :sigh:
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Sith5580)
    Can't get into a faith school, well thats because you chose not to be religious.
    No, that's because there are no state-funded faith schools in my area/Scotland in general, which cater for my faith, and because my parents chose to send me to a school where I could mix with children of other religions.

    (Original post by Sith5580)
    Can't afford to go to private school, is that because your parents have a bad job, or one that doesn't pay well. If so why is this. WHat qualifications do they have, can they get a better job.
    I agree, people should be allowed to pay for their children's education if that's what they want to spend their money on.

    (Original post by Sith5580)
    Why shouldn't they get public funding, afterall they don't charge. Surely every child deserves the best possible future, this one is open to those people who are religious and who have brought their children up in a religous community.
    Because we all pay taxes towards these schools, yet we can't all send our children there because they don't allow us to.

    (Original post by Sith5580)
    Furthermore, this rambling about anti-discrimination, I'm sorry but you dont seem to realise that this is a christian country. Also, why should you now discriminate against religions, which have been around far longer than the ideals the government promote now ahead of religions. This is discrimination in itself, consider that fact. You wouldn't pull money from inner city London schools, simply because they have too high an ethnicity and perhaps English isn't even the most popular first language.
    It's not discrimination against religions. It wouldn't prevent them from doing whatever they want, I just believe there should be a separation between the church and the state. What do inner city London schools have to do with this exactly? They allow anyone to attend as long as they're in the catchment area, just like any other non-religious state school, so I don't really see what your point is.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Sith5580)
    Can't get into a faith school, well thats because you chose not to be religious.
    Not where I live, I just happened not to be born Jewish. Children are not capable of choosing their faith.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by moregano)
    The UK is meant to be a secular, multicultural society, so why are religious schools funded by the government?
    Because a) if the UK is multicultural, then the government should support the educational means of different faiths. As in this "multicultural argument", people should have a right to believe in what they want to believe and forcing faith schools to demand fees would be quite discriminating on parents who want their kids to be educated in a particular faith, in the "liberalist view" of course. Faith education does lead to a multicultural soiety, so shunning it would do just the opposite wouldn't it?

    Faith schools encourage segregation and exclusion.
    Maybe they do, but regardless people still have a right to a faith and in a "multicultural britain" the government should support this.


    They are allowed to promote the idea that sex outside marriage and homosexuality are wrong.
    I think they are wrong, liberalism has simply set a means of irrational "ethics" in politics which makes things such as this look right, when in tradition they are morally wrong. As a christian, I believe it should stay that way.

    the government is supposed to be working to discourage homophobic attitudes.
    Maybe they are, but being in a faith sixth form myself, I have never been told by any teacher that homosexuality is wrong. Infact, I even know a open homosexual in the year above me. Regardless, I am in opposition to homosexuality, and I shouldn't be branded "wrong" for that to the tedious nature of "liberalist ethics".

    They are allowed to select pupils (and staff) based on religion
    Not true, I am LDS and got into a catholic sixth form. Plus most of the people I know there are actually atheists now, who were strictly raised christian. Plus, I only know a couple of openly catholic teachers there.

    My mum is a teacher and has been unsuccessful in applying for jobs at several RC primary schools, all of which hired a Catholic teacher instead.
    Conspiracy? at the end of the day if catholic schools do afterall prefer "catholics", you need to remember its a faith school and is always going to be bias towards it inveitably. People who have a problem should reply for somewhere non religious, afterall in this super dupah troopah liberalist pro-gay, pro-multicultural, liberalist world, faiths should be allowed shouldn't they?

    If parents want their kids to get a religious education then they should be able to go private pay for it themselves, but it's not fair to spend taxpayers' money on something many of us are denied access to anyway
    Not if this is a multicultural society, or one trying to "encourage it".
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by moregano)
    The UK is meant to be a secular, multicultural society, so why are religious schools funded by the government?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_VIII_of_England

    /Thread
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by loki276)
    it does depend a lot on your teachers as well

    I had no English teacher for 1 year and came out with a bad grade in English while had good grades in the rest
    Well OK, maybe it does depend on the teachers as well. It's not something I can really have an opinion on. However, if you're claiming that it depends a lot on the teacher, this would suggest that the complaint of state school students is a valid one - that their education is suffering, just because they have less money. In that case, I think my solution would answer this particular complaint.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by moregano)
    The UK is meant to be a secular, multicultural society, so why are religious schools funded by the government?
    Religious schools are funded by the government in order to promote the multiculturalism which you're suggesting that the UK should have - rather than every school teaching from the perspective of the same culture.

    As for the UK being "secular", I don't know about that. The fact that our coins say that the Queen is, "by the Grace of God, Defender of the Faith" on them seems to suggest otherwise!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MaceyThe)
    I said "Islam" as in the ideology, not "muslims" as individuals.

    "Almost as much as Islam hates me," and "almost as much a Muslim hates me" and are two different things. The first is an ideology, and the second an individual with their own likes/dislikes and character.:rolleyes:

    But anyway, you're a bad Muslim then - if you followed your faith strictly, you'd only be friends with other Muslims. The Qur'an instructs muslims NOT to take the Jews and the Christians for friends, and calls un-believers like myself "the vilest of animals" and "losers.":rolleyes:
    Sort of stinks doesn't it? A faith trying to dictate who you can and can't be friends with??? I used to do all the religion stuff, until I realized I was breaking my faith all the time, and kicked it in to touch.

    Why don't you do the same?
    Listen there are like over 10 different groups of Muslims. The group your referring to are wahabism and they are the very very crazy guys, then you got another Islamic group who has all gay members. You see both groups work because the Qur’an does not specifically tell you and you can easily translate it. Your basically saying that the wahabism is the right group by saying “if you followed your faith strictly, you'd only be friends with other Muslims”, but who gives you the right to say that? Now, I know you might bring out a religious quotation but I can easily dismiss it by saying that there out of context because as I could show you many Muslim scholars and quote that begs to differ.

    (Original post by allexperts.com/q/Islam-947/Muslims-non-muslim-friends.htm)
    Allah Almighty commanded the Muslims to be kind and just with non-Muslims: "Allah forbids you not, With regard to those who Fight you not for (your) Faith Nor drive you out Of your homes, From dealing kindly and justly With them: For Allah loveth Those who are just. (The Noble Qur’an, 60:8)"

    Just because a person might be a non-Muslim it doesn't automatically make him an enemy to the Muslims. Peace-loving and innocent non-Muslims are to be treated with justice and kindness, otherwise the Muslims would be committing a sin and violating Allah Almighty's Holy Commands, "For Allah loveth Those who are just"
    Now I know that you can bring I quote that contradicts this, but the moral of my point is that the Qur’an is open for interpretation and the interpretation that is right can only be found out after death so…
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Religious schools are funded by the government in order to promote the multiculturalism which you're suggesting that the UK should have - rather than every school teaching from the perspective of the same culture.
    It's not really multiculturalism though is it. Multiculturalism is different cultures existing together, rather than being divided up into their own specific school.

    A normal comprehensive with a mixture of religions is far more multicultural than a single faith school.

    I'm not sure where I stand on faith schools, but personally I am uncomfortable with the idea that state-funded schools can have a selection criteria based on religious belief. So you could have a Catholic school a few minutes walk from your house, but if you were an atheist or different religion they might not let your child in.
 
 
 
The home of Results and Clearing

2,529

people online now

1,567,000

students helped last year
Poll
A-level students - how do you feel about your results?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.