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    (Original post by 9a3iqa)
    Excellent +rep
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    You need the police to enforce any kind of law. With every society you'll get those who break it and need to be reprimanded. I really don't see what you argument is.
    The problem though with these specific laws is that they are based on an arbitrary decision by a "divine" entity. They are not based on analytical and empirical reasoning as good laws are supposed to be. I concede that some or perhaps even most western laws are not entirely based on reason, yet on balance they are far more so. It is reasonable to enforce laws based on reason on the minority even if they disagree in the name of order, however, inflicting arbitrary laws on a minority is plain oppression and is wrong.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Islam is thought to have first been adopted by peoples of the Indonesian archipelago sometime during the eleventh century, although Muslims had visited the archipelago early in the Muslim era. By the end of the 16th century, Islam, through conversion, had surpassed Hinduism and Buddhism as the dominant religion of the peoples of Java and Sumatra. At this time, only Bali retained a Hindu-practising majority, and the eastern islands remained largely animist but would adopt Islam and Christianity in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_spr...m_in_Indonesia

    Fail.
    Not really.

    As with everywhere else in the world where Islam has spread, much of the conversion to Islam in Indonesia was done forcefully by the sword, or face being killed......
    A practice that continues even today, with Christian civilians in Indonesia converting and being circumcised in their hundreds under threats of death, in the usual Islamic way,
    http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=10796, with those refusing being slaughtered in the hundreds.

    Not something that Islamic history books in Indonesia like to include though is it
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    You need the police to enforce any kind of law. With every society you'll get those who break it and need to be reprimanded. I really don't see what you argument is.
    I'm going to try this one more time, at which point I'm going to stop because whether you're being wilfully stubborn or something worse, continuing this discussion with you would prove unproductive.

    You said [paraphrasing]: The people of Aceh chose Sharia

    This is demonstrably false. Some people in Aceh chose Sharia, and we can work that out because if it were everyone who chose it, enforcement would be unnecessary. This is a common dodge by cultural relativists, because it allows you to make it seem like this is an issue of autonomy, not oppression; "these people chose their lifestyle, who are we to intervene?"

    Well, I'll tell you who we are to intervene. If everyone in Aceh wanted Sharia, there'd be no problem, because whether one agrees with Islam or not people have the right to live their lives as they choose. However, as shown above, clearly not everyone in Aceh wants Sharia, which means that it's not a matter of people having the right to live their lives, but rather having a supposed right to force others to live like them. This is actually the complete opposite of the autonomy argument. You cannot legitimise oppression because there are more oppressors than oppressed.

    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Not really, your analogies are woefully ignorant that's all.
    Looking at this thread, plenty of people seemed to understand them perfectly well, so I'm going to go ahead and guess you're the problem.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    Excellent +rep
    I will return the rep inshallah.
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    (Original post by Casse)
    Every police/guard takes his orders from somewhere. The police in the UK uphold the law set by parliament. From what I see, the police in Indonesia are upholding the law set by God which is better than upholding man-made laws created by some guys in Jakarta.
    The police in the UK aren't upholding oppressive laws. That's the key difference.


    Mixing between the sexes is forbidden in Islam, especially when there is no beneficial reason for doing it.
    Socializing is beneficial, building relationships is beneficial. Unless that's forbidden in Islam too.
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    (Original post by 9a3iqa)
    Clearly you don't understand how to quote properly.

    Why do you even feel the need to comment on what other countries are doing? It's their country and they can do whatever they want and nothing you ever say will change it.
    Okay, leaving Palestine aside...what if Switzerland decided to ban Islam? Are you still not allowed an opinion on other countries? Or are people only not allowed to express an opinion when it involves religious bigots that belong to you're faith?

    Mixing between the sexes is forbidden in Islam, especially when there is no beneficial reason for doing it.
    You sound a right bore, however the forces of liberalism will eventually overwhelm quasi-facist religious behaviour like this. Britain used to be similar...humans enjoy each others company, especially males and females! You can only supress basic human instinct for so long. The days of an overbearing and dominant Islam are numbered....we are in the 21st century. it will have to adapt or die one day. The middle east is unlikely to remain forever poor, even Africa may one day be rich and godless. Islam in it's current form will not survive the test of time, it will either die or have to change and adopt a more spiritual role - like the European church. People rise up against overbearing power structures, they did in Europe, they will do in the Muslim world. Will Islam be practiced as feverently and strongly in 200 years as it is today, I doubt it. Take a time-machine back 200 years in Britain every church was packed to the rafters, you were an outcast...an oddball if you didn't go. Look at it today. Islam's future is the same, show me one country that has developed and remained or got more religious....

    I will live here just to annoy you, also I will take your jobs and make you pay taxes for my health and well being. Happy now?
    I couldn't give a **** frankly.
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    (Original post by MaceyThe)
    Not really.

    As with everywhere else in the world where Islam has spread, much of the conversion to Islam in Indonesia was done forcefully by the sword, or face being killed......
    A practice that continues even today, with Christian civilians in Indonesia converting and being circumcised in their hundreds under threats of death, in the usual Islamic way,
    http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=10796, with those refusing being slaughtered in the hundreds.

    Not something that Islamic history books in Indonesia like to include though is it
    Oh wow, you must feel like a genius. This questionable news article is what you use to prove that Islam did not come to Indonesia peacefully?

    Nice try, but not good enough.

    YOU FAIL.
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    (Original post by Casse)
    Every police/guard takes his orders from somewhere. The police in the UK uphold the law set by parliament. From what I see, the police in Indonesia are upholding the law set by God which is better than upholding man-made laws created by some guys in Jakarta.
    Parliament...a democratic, largely secular organisation that doesn't believe God told people....wait for it that boys and girls cannot mix :rofl:

    Allah sure sounds a fusty, uptight, sexually-repressed Victorian schoolmaster.
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    (Original post by 9a3iqa)
    I will return the rep inshallah.
    What does the action of returning rep have to do with the will of God? :curious:
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    +rep
    With your increadible rep power.....
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    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    The police in the UK aren't upholding oppressive laws. That's the key difference.
    Oppressive from whos point of view. Muslims would view these laws as perfect and deviation from this would be imperfection.

    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    Socializing is beneficial, building relationships is beneficial. Unless that's forbidden in Islam too.
    Men can socialise with men and women can socialise with women. Free mixing between the sexes eventually leads to many social problems so it is something that is prohibited under the Shariah.
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    (Original post by Kreuzuerk)
    What does the action of returning rep have to do with the will of God? :curious:
    Don't you get it? Allah approves of that TSR post. Obvs :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Casse)
    Oppressive from whos point of view. Muslims would view these laws as perfect and deviation from this would be imperfection.
    Imperfection doesn't mean it's oppressive. I find that British laws are often far from perfect, but at least they aren't oppressive.


    Men can socialise with men and women can socialise with women. Free mixing between the sexes eventually leads to many social problems so it is something that is prohibited under the Shariah.
    No it doesn't.
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    (Original post by numb3rb0y)
    I'm going to try this one more time, at which point I'm going to stop because whether you're being wilfully stubborn or something worse, continuing this discussion with you would prove unproductive.

    You said [paraphrasing]: The people of Aceh chose Sharia

    This is demonstrably false. Some people in Aceh chose Sharia, and we can work that out because if it were everyone who chose it, enforcement would be unnecessary. This is a common dodge by cultural relativists, because it allows you to make it seem like this is an issue of autonomy, not oppression; "these people chose their lifestyle, who are we to intervene?"
    Your argument now has shifted from a law enforcement issue to a issue of piety/obedience. Sharia law is just that, a law. It needs to be enforced. If with the imposition of Sharia law people would magically become saints then there wouldn't be any punishments with in it. But this isn't human nature. Of course there will be people who will not be happy with it as with every other law in the world but does that mean we should abolish it to pander to that minority? of course not. The people of Aceh elected legislators fulling knowing their election manifesto and their intention to introduce Sharia law.

    http://www1.voanews.com/english/news...-68709782.html
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    (Original post by Casse)
    Oppressive from whos point of view. Muslims would view these laws as perfect and deviation from this would be imperfection.
    Oppression does not mean "stuff I disagree with". If Muslims wish to follow Sharia personally in the West, they are absolutely free to, so the idea that they are being oppressed without it is nonsensical. All they are denied is the ability to coerce others into participating, and that's the complete opposite of oppression.
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    (Original post by Casse)
    Men can socialise with men and women can socialise with women. Free mixing between the sexes eventually leads to many social problems so it is something that is prohibited under the Shariah.
    I would suggest that mixing solely with your gender may result in the realisation of latent homosexual thoughts.
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    With your increadible rep power.....
    Yes and err work on your spelling
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    Okay, leaving Palestine aside...what if Switzerland decided to ban Islam? Are you still not allowed an opinion on other countries? Or are people only not allowed to express an opinion when it involves religious bigots that belong to you're faith?

    The problem with that is in Muslim countries christianity is not banned.


    You sound a right bore, however the forces of liberalism will eventually overwhelm quasi-facist religious behaviour like this.

    Who cares about Britain, the Muslim world has actually been secular until 30 or so years ago, back then if you went to a Muslim city e.g Cairo the girls would not even wear head scarves and the men would not even pray. Islam has made a big come back. Therefore you fail and miserably at that.
    :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by MaceyThe)
    Not really.

    As with everywhere else in the world where Islam has spread, much of the conversion to Islam in Indonesia was done forcefully by the sword, or face being killed......
    A practice that continues even today, with Christian civilians in Indonesia converting and being circumcised in their hundreds under threats of death, in the usual Islamic way,
    http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=10796, with those refusing being slaughtered in the hundreds.

    Not something that Islamic history books in Indonesia like to include though is it
    Show me the evidence for this,even from credible Western sources.
 
 
 
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