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    (Original post by insperatum)
    Please join the following facebook group:
    http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=281046424693

    to raise awareness for the pope's £20million trip to the UK, coming out of taxpayers' money, which would be better spent on hard-pressed schools, hospitals and social services which are facing cuts.
    does the pope smoke dope?
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    (Original post by Stalin)
    So you have no problem with the fact that the Pope more or less ranks homosexuals as 2nd class citizens, and not only that but believes it's not right for them to be attracted to the same sex?
    That post is irrelavent to what I said!

    The soverign Pontiff does not treat homosexuals as "second class citizens." In fact, he does not treat anyone as "second class citizens." Even those who are not members of the Catholic Church.

    One only has to see his outreach to Jews and Muslims by visiting their places of worship - a phenominon which has not been reciprocated.

    The Church understands and even admits that people can and do have an attraction to people of the same sex. As I have previously stated, sexual orientation/attraction is not sinful. The Church has difficulty with homosexual acts - indeed any act that closes the gift to natural life.
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    That post is irrelavent to what I said!

    The soverign Pontiff does not treat homosexuals as "second class citizens." In fact, he does not treat anyone as "second class citizens." Even those who are not members of the Catholic Church.

    One only has to see his outreach to Jews and Muslims by visiting their places of worship - a phenominon which has not been reciprocated.

    The Church understands and even admits that people can and do have an attraction to people of the same sex. As I have previously stated, sexual orientation/attraction is not sinful. The Church has difficulty with homosexual acts - indeed any act that closes the gift to natural life.
    So why does he and thus the Catholic church oppose the new bill?
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    (Original post by jakemittle)
    They are not trying to help make legislation to discriminate against people. They just dont want that law to be imposed on them. Did they complain when it was being drafted in the first place?
    Well actually....the BNP are taking advantage of the media time they are receiving, and this is why they are growing...

    I dont oppose the bill btw. I think its a good bill, I just dont want it imposed on the church, or any religious establishment because its undermining some of the concepts of the religion. Sure, they are not perfect, they have their own problems..but this doesnt help it.
    (we are debating about the same thing right..?)




    Eh?...what are you talking about "I'll wait for him to work efficiently at breaking down the only qualities that make living the UK worthwhile" A bit of an exaggeration. And he is not bashing anyone and whats Iran got to do with it?
    Are you trying to say that the church should have privlidges to set it apart?
    To make it in this instance above the law?
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    (Original post by Stalin)
    So why does he and thus the Catholic church oppose the new bill?
    Because the rules it imposes on Catholic institutions would be contrary to Church teaching.


    /end contribution to thread.
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    Because the rules it imposes on Catholic institutions would be contrary to Church teaching.


    /end contribution to thread.
    So therefore the Church must be wrong considering the fact that homosexuality can be a natural thing?

    Why do you believe in something which bypasses natural things in life and then brands them as wrong?
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    (Original post by TheMeister)
    The legislation introduced by the government contravenes our religious doctrines; you are in no place to make assumptions and condemn us to having to introduce unnecessary and unwanted provisions in our Church. It's a disgrace that the atheists are so scant in their regard for those who may have religious beliefs. You promote freedom of expression yet limit those who wish to practice their respective faith in the privacy of their own homes only. It's a terrible and avoidable state of affairs.

    £20m is peanuts to the government anyway.
    how exactly do atheists limit those who wish to practice their faith in privacy?
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    A petition will do no good and make you look silly - none of the Number 10 ones ever get taken seriously so why should yours?

    Catholics have always been outnumbered in the UK.

    I find that third part of your post offensive - please reword it or I shall report the post.
    I'm sorry but that is my personal opinion and will not change unless the Pope has an epiphany and realises that the 21st century is not the 19th. So I guess you'll have to report the post, although I'm sorry to hear a) that you're offended (unless you share the Pope's views that is...) and b) that you feel the need to report the post.

    It's not my petition- it's the National Secular Society's petition, so it's likely to attract more votes I think than if I'd simply made one myself. And just because the Number 10 one's aren't all taken seriously doesn't mean we shouldn't at least use our democratic right to protest against something we don't agree with via said petition.

    And yes, Catholics may have always been outnumbered in the UK, but if you look at my post further up, then you'll see that if all the British Catholics contributed just £20 each then they could easily afford the £20 million that the government is taking from other causes to fund this man's visit. I mean why the hell does it cost £20 million to get one man to come and tour the UK ffs? Ok security and his entourage (although if it is paying for his entourage then that's an even greater misuse of this money)...but £20 million?? What are they gonna do, drive him around in a super tank?
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    (Original post by Bobo1234)
    I'm sorry but that is my personal opinion and will not change unless the Pope has an epiphany and realises that the 21st century is not the 19th. So I guess you'll have to report the post, although I'm sorry to hear a) that you're offended (unless you share the Pope's views that is...) and b) that you feel the need to report the post.

    It's not my petition- it's the National Secular Society's petition, so it's likely to attract more votes I think than if I'd simply made one myself. And just because the Number 10 one's aren't all taken seriously doesn't mean we shouldn't at least use our democratic right to protest against something we don't agree with via said petition.

    And yes, Catholics may have always been outnumbered in the UK, but if you look at my post further up, then you'll see that if all the British Catholics contributed just £20 each then they could easily afford the £20 million that the government is taking from other causes to fund this man's visit. I mean why the hell does it cost £20 million to get one man to come and tour the UK ffs? Ok security and his entourage (although if it is paying for his entourage then that's an even greater misuse of this money)...but £20 million?? What are they gonna do, drive him around in a super tank?
    And you are entitled to your opinion.

    The Pope will not "have an epiphany" as you (I presume) attribute to "getting with society's times" because the Pope is subject to the traditions of the Church, which are the teachings of Christ which cannot be changed by man. There will never be a Pope who comes out with all the liberal views the world wants to hear.

    Just as money taken from the general population (including Catholics) is taken and used to fund visits and trips by protestant bishops and archbishops, so money can be taken for the visit of the Pope. There are double standards in the country - especially between Catholicism and protestantism. So this money is very little in respect to how much Catholics have to pay with regard to things that don't concern them.

    £20M will probably be needed as protection for the poor man, from militant atheists and disgruntled muslims.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Are you trying to say that the church should have privlidges to set it apart?
    To make it in this instance above the law?
    Of course im trying to say that :yep:
    But hey, not above the law so to speak, but more. It should be left alone to do what it needs to do.
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    And you are entitled to your opinion.

    The Pope will not "have an epiphany" as you (I presume) attribute to "getting with society's times" because the Pope is subject to the traditions of the Church, which are the teachings of Christ which cannot be changed by man. There will never be a Pope who comes out with all the liberal views the world wants to hear.

    Just as money taken from the general population (including Catholics) is taken and used to fund visits and trips by protestant bishops and archbishops, so money can be taken for the visit of the Pope. There are double standards in the country - especially between Catholicism and protestantism. So this money is very little in respect to how much Catholics have to pay with regard to things that don't concern them.

    £20M will probably be needed as protection for the poor man, from militant atheists and disgruntled muslims.
    How can you defend the Pope when he actively preaches against the use of condoms and as a direct result causes intolerable suffering? If you argue that there is no mention of condoms in the bible, then you are effectively saying that as the bible is timeless, that God, although possessing complete knowledge, actively came to the decision that the prevention of transmission of disease was not a good idea.
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    And you are entitled to your opinion.

    The Pope will not "have an epiphany" as you (I presume) attribute to "getting with society's times" because the Pope is subject to the traditions of the Church, which are the teachings of Christ which cannot be changed by man. There will never be a Pope who comes out with all the liberal views the world wants to hear.

    Just as money taken from the general population (including Catholics) is taken and used to fund visits and trips by protestant bishops and archbishops, so money can be taken for the visit of the Pope. There are double standards in the country - especially between Catholicism and protestantism. So this money is very little in respect to how much Catholics have to pay with regard to things that don't concern them.

    £20M will probably be needed as protection for the poor man, from militant atheists and disgruntled muslims.
    Thank you.

    Frankly I can't really argue you down over this, but I really believed that when I was brought up (which was as a Christian) that the principal message I was being given by my family was to love and accpet all comers. Now I've relaxed said views since rescinding my Christian beliefs (which I suppose weren't really mine per se, they were just the ones I was told to have by my family), but I still feel that the church has to make its mind up- is it for equal love and kindness to be shown to all or is it not? The fact that I don't actually believe that the Bible was necessarily written by people who were even alive at the same time as Jesus probably gets in the way of...well everything. I believe that if people are religious then they should at least try to make their own minds up about their own beliefs- why can't these opinions be changed by man? Why can't a Catholic choose to accept homosexuality and go against that one, small section of Christian teaching? Because let's face it- anti-homosexuality is hardly the be all and end all of Christian teaching.

    I fully sympathise with your view on the gap between Protestantism and Catholicism- to my mind the use of taxpayer's money to fund ANY religious preacher's movements around the country or the world is disgraceful no matter how important said preacher is- it's just that obviously, being head of the entire Catholic Church, the Pope receives more attention. I will be more vigilant for protests against taxpayers funding Protestant travels in the future from now on though.

    My point still stands- he may well need some protection, but I do NOT agree with making the non-Catholics of Britain (who are in the vast majority as we've both agreed) pay for his visit with money that could be used on something to benefit everyone, regardless of their beliefs, like a hospital, repairs to a road or twenty, etc.
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    He can come if he wants provided we can protest peacefully.
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    I don't agree with that either and I'm Catholic. Such a waste and I can't even understand where those million are going for :confused:???
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    (Original post by Kreuzuerk)
    How can you defend the Pope when he actively preaches against the use of condoms and as a direct result causes intolerable suffering? If you argue that there is no mention of condoms in the bible, then you are effectively saying that as the bible is timeless, that God, although possessing complete knowledge, actively came to the decision that the prevention of transmission of disease was not a good idea.
    The Pope has gone further than that, and said that condoms actually increase the instances of AIDs.

    This Pope, it seems, is determined to see suffering and pain.
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    (Original post by nwbenc)
    Stop bashing Catholics! No one is forced into being a Catholic, and those baptized as children have the freedom not to practice their faith when they come to an age at which they can choose for themselves (as have many of my friends). The pope has as much right as anyone to express his opinion, and as all diplomatic visitors, have their trip paid for in expenses. I do not agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches, but how can you be so openly against a faith that's main aim is to encourage indiscriminate love between people.
    That was the hippies.
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    (Original post by nwbenc)
    Stop bashing Catholics! No one is forced into being a Catholic, and those baptized as children have the freedom not to practice their faith when they come to an age at which they can choose for themselves (as have many of my friends).
    I was forced into the religion, before I could say "Jesus" and sent through the Catholic brainwashing factory for years. And now, I can leave the 'faith', but wait! I am still a Catholic in their records!

    The pope has as much right as anyone to express his opinion
    But, God forbid, somebody starts 'bashing' Catholics on a forum :toofunny:

    I do not agree with everything the Catholic Church teaches, but how can you be so openly against a faith that's main aim is to encourage indiscriminate love between people.
    Gay love too .. oh wait ...
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    The Pope will not "have an epiphany" as you (I presume) attribute to "getting with society's times" because the Pope is subject to the traditions of the Church, which are the teachings of Christ which cannot be changed by man. There will never be a Pope who comes out with all the liberal views the world wants to hear.
    I'm not a Catholic but this post could not make more sense.
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    (Original post by Spacecam)
    That post is irrelavent to what I said!

    The soverign Pontiff does not treat homosexuals as "second class citizens." In fact, he does not treat anyone as "second class citizens." Even those who are not members of the Catholic Church.

    One only has to see his outreach to Jews and Muslims by visiting their places of worship - a phenominon which has not been reciprocated.

    The Church understands and even admits that people can and do have an attraction to people of the same sex. As I have previously stated, sexual orientation/attraction is not sinful. The Church has difficulty with homosexual acts - indeed any act that closes the gift to natural life.
    So it's OK to feel homosexual, as long as you don't actually consummate the relationship? It doesn't harm anyone, especially not an all-powerful being. I'm sure he/she/it's got better things to worry about than who has relationships with who and how they are expressed, assuming that he/she/it exists at all and isn't just a perpetuated myth.

    Frankly, I wish that El Pope would just stay the hell away. We don't need religion - the world has moved/is moving beyond that to a world where rationality and freedom are preserved, not religious privilege. I think that the government paying £20 million minimum to facilitate the visit of a homophobic anti-liberal is insane.
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    (Original post by TheMeister)
    The legislation introduced by the government contravenes our religious doctrines; you are in no place to make assumptions and condemn us to having to introduce unnecessary and unwanted provisions in our Church. It's a disgrace that the atheists are so scant in their regard for those who may have religious beliefs. You promote freedom of expression yet limit those who wish to practice their respective faith in the privacy of their own homes only. It's a terrible and avoidable state of affairs.

    £20m is peanuts to the government anyway.

    why does something that is completely irrational (belief in a deity in absence of any evidence) deserve any respect?
 
 
 
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