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    (Original post by Bearies810)
    Errr I hope you're not planning to eat every animal you come in contact with! Even so, they should still have the right to a comfortable life before slaughter.
    Or maybe even to not be slaughtered.
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    (Original post by Bearies810)
    Errr I hope you're not planning to eat every animal you come in contact with! Even so, they should still have the right to a comfortable life before slaughter.

    Obviously not

    But I am an omnivore and therefore need both plants and animals

    And if it is cheaper to give then an uncomfortable life than so be it
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    (Original post by loki276)
    Obviously not

    But I am an omnivore and therefore need both plants and animals

    And if it is cheaper to give then an uncomfortable life than so be it
    Omnivores can live off either plants or animals or both.
    You don't need to eat animals because you're an omnivore, perhaps if you have some pre-existing medical conditions. Otherwise vegans would just die.
    Perhaps you could try doing some research?
    That or stop trolling.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Omnivores can live off either plants or animals or both.
    You don't need to eat animals because you're an omnivore, perhaps if you have some pre-existing medical conditions. Otherwise vegans would just die.
    Perhaps you could try doing some research?
    That or stop trolling.

    It is easier to get some proteins from animals which are not found in plants

    These would otherwise be required to make by the human body itself

    Overall it is easier to eat animals rather than eat plants
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    (Original post by loki276)
    It is easier to get some proteins from animals which are not found in plants

    These would otherwise be required to make by the human body itself

    Overall it is easier to eat animals rather than eat plants
    The body makes the AMINO ACIDS anyway.
    There are some conditionally necessary that you can get from vegan sources. The other essential ones are all in fruits veggies nuts and seeds and pulses anyway.
    So what if it's easier? it's easier to have a slave, you can tell how that arguments going along.
    Please stop being a troll.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    The body makes the AMINO ACIDS anyway.
    There are some conditionally necessary that you can get from vegan sources. The other essential ones are all in fruits veggies nuts and seeds and pulses anyway.
    So what if it's easier? it's easier to have a slave, you can tell how that arguments going along.
    Please stop being a troll.

    http://www.brighthub.com/health/alte...les/21383.aspx

    Website may be biased but I don't know

    Also comparison is irrelevant?
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    (Original post by loki276)
    http://www.brighthub.com/health/alte...les/21383.aspx

    Website may be biased but I don't know

    Also comparison is irrelevant?
    Per kcal plant sources of iron tend to be richer, where as per gram meat tends to be richer.
    It's easy to get enough amino acids from a vegan diet for most people.
    I weight 60KG (more than when I was a meat eater or vegetarian, going from meat eater to vegetarian there was no difference in my weight)
    so I need 60-100grams of protein a day. This is piss easy to get.

    Anaemia is at the same % in meat eaters as it is in vegetarians and vegans.
    I don't know about iron deficiency, but this may be of interest on calcium and iron:

    iron:
    RDA:
    Age amount mg per day
    0-6 (months) 0.27
    7-12 (months) 11
    1-3 7
    4-8 10
    9-13 8
    14-18 males 11 women 15 pregnant 27 lactating 10
    19-50 males 8 women 18 pregnant 27 lactating 9
    51+ 8

    Sources of tables: http://dietary-supplements.info.nih....ts/iron.asp#h8
    Iron is important for red blood cells which carry oxygen, as well as other things, around the body.
    Health effects:
    Too much iron can lead to being more susceptible to bacteria infections. Where as too little will lead to anaemia. Anaemia is the first sign of an iron deficiency, and is where the blood loses it’s iron, decreasing the amount of oxygen being carried around the body. Which as you can guess means vital organs lacking in oxygen; causing a lack of energy release in the body.
    Men tend to have more iron than women, especially if the woman is menstruating, pregnant or lactating.
    Stolen from Wikipedia:
    “Most of the iron in the body is hoarded and recycled by the reticuloendothelial system, which breaks down aged red blood cells. However, people lose a small but steady amount by sweating and by shedding cells of the skin and the mucosal lining of the gastrointestinal tract. The total amount of loss for healthy people in the developed world amounts to an estimated average of 1 mg a day for men, and 1.5–2 mg a day for women with regular menstrual periods. People in developing countries with gastrointestinal parasitic infections often lose more. [6]
    This steady loss means that people must continue to absorb iron. They do so via a tightly regulated process that under normal circumstances protects against iron overload.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_i..._from_the_diet
    Spinach is harder to absorb from most vegetables and fruits instead of non vegan sources, however most should find with a healthy diet, they’ll be eating without trying, plenty of high iron foods.
    Sources for iron include:
    Kale, Spinach, broccoli, peas, pumpkin seeds, figs, dates, dried apricots and perhaps the best source, lentils.
    Absorption Inhibitors...
    Definitely: Red Wine, Coffee & Tea Whole grains and bran
    Apparently: Vegetables: Spinach, chard, beet greens, rhubarb and sweet potato Soy products.
    Absorption enhancers...
    Definitely:
    Fruits: Orange, Orange Juice, cantaloupe, strawberries, grapefruit etc
    Vegetables: Broccoli, Brussels sprouts, tomato, tomato juice, potato, green & red pepper.
    Apparently: White wine
    “Note on spinach:
    You do not need to give it up if you are a spinach lover! Simply eat spinach with any foods containing iron absorption enhancers.” (http://www.healthcastle.com/iron.shtml)
    The things written under “apparently” are from:
    http://www.healthcastle.com/iron.shtml

    Things I want to find out but don’t know where to look:
    How long it usually takes for an iron deficiency to occur. How long it usually takes an iron deficiency to be cured.

    If anyone see’s a flaw, or something that needs to be added, don’t hesitate to post. If anyone feels that a source is biased or incorrect, again, don’t hesitate to post. Although if you can, please find a better one.

    Useful link:
    http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm


    7)Calcium:
    Vital for bones, in fact over 99% of the bodies calcium is in bones and teeth.
    A lack of it can lead to rickets, bad blood clotting and osteoporosis (especially in the case of menopausal women). It has several key complex uses in the body, including as far as I can tell, uses relating to muscle contraction, motor functions (well, synapses using it).

    Vegan sources of it include:
    most sea weeds (including kelp)
    most green leafy veggies
    broccoli
    most beans
    almonds
    sesame seeds (must be pulverised)
    oranges (about 5% of your RDA per orange)
    figs
    collard greens
    black strap molasses

    And many more (I'll try to put even more up, or a link showing more, another time)

    I remember reading recently that only about 500mg of calcium every 6 hours or something could be absorbed by the body, trying to find reference at the moment.

    How much calcium we need per day according to wikipedia:


    age: mg/day

    0-6 months 210
    7-12 months 270
    1-3 500
    4-8 800
    9-18 1300
    19-50 1000
    51+ 1200

    Whilst some studies show vegans need less calcium in bones, because animal protein is harder to digest, others show the opposite, with animal protein being easier to digest.

    External link:

    http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/calcium.htm

    If the tables get messed up then oh well, that's just what happens with different formats. You can find them online easily enough.


    With regards to the argument you'd have to show what characteristics make a human more important than an animal (in generalised terms). The only times I've seen this done is in Kantianism (which just doesn't make sense with regards to the rationality argument as far as I can tell) and religious arguments claiming humans have a 'soul'.
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    (Original post by loki276)
    Obviously not

    But I am an omnivore and therefore need both plants and animals

    And if it is cheaper to give then an uncomfortable life than so be it
    Guess I can't argue with someone who has no sense of compassion *shrugs*
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    (Original post by Bearies810)
    Guess I can't argue with someone who has no sense of compassion *shrugs*
    Constrained maximisers in social contract theory could be applied.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Constrained maximisers in social contract theory could be applied.
    I hope you're not trying to impress because you're just coming off as pretentious.
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    (Original post by Bearies810)
    I hope you're not trying to impress because you're just coming off as pretentious.
    I've given you a specific topic in a political and in some ways moral theory that might interest you. I couldn't give a flying **** what you think of me. If I were to put emotional authority into how random users on a forum thought of me I'd probably kill myself. Fortunately I have more sense than that.
    However I am strangely impressed by your arrogance.

    http://www.iep.utm.edu/soc-cont/

    3.b.
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    (Original post by Bearies810)
    Guess I can't argue with someone who has no sense of compassion *shrugs*

    I would rather see humans living a comfortable life than animals
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    (Original post by loki276)
    I would rather see humans living a comfortable life than animals
    If we stopped using animals in the way we do we'd be growing a lot more food for ourselves. We'd be using a lot less water. And we'd probably not be taking down some parts of the rainforest (although there are many reasons for deforestation).
    This would yes, take a fair while to implement. However it is not in the long run an "either we live a comfortable life or they do".
    Of course a retort could be they don't liver a comfortable life in nature, but I don't see how we're responsible for that. Where as we are responsible for our own actions. There is in most cases no need to treat them in the way we do. And we can live a comfortable life without them.
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    It's just never gonna happen. Ever.
    We can argue as much as we like, the fact is. Meat tastes good. It is one of lifes luxurys. One of the major ones too. People will go crazy without good food. I mean, where the fuk will I get my chicken liver from?!

    Builders, rich people, athletes, and growing boys are not going to benefit from it
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    (Original post by Hest)
    It's just never gonna happen. Ever.
    We can argue as much as we like, the fact is. Meat tastes good. It is one of lifes luxurys. One of the major ones too. People will go crazy without good food. I mean, where the fuk will I get my chicken liver from?!

    Builders, rich people, athletes, and growing boys are not going to benefit from it
    The same thing was said about the slave trade.
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    (Original post by Barden)
    i dont think its hypocritical for me to have an animal killed so that i can eat it, so long as it has been kept and killed humanely, since the person who killed the animal did not take pleasure in inflicting pain/causing suffering to the animal

    i.e. the killing of the animal was an act of indulgence, not sadism
    :hello:
    If the animal still winds up dead, though, does the motivation of its killer matter? Whether the person who killed it wanted to eat it or did it for kicks, there's still something dead: does the reason matter?
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    (Original post by iamnotarobot)
    :hello:
    If the animal still winds up dead, though, does the motivation of its killer matter? Whether the person who killed it wanted to eat it or did it for kicks, there's still something dead: does the reason matter?

    it matters to me as a fellow human, as i now share society with a person who kills for pleasure
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    (Original post by Barden)
    it matters to me as a fellow human, as i now share society with a person who kills for pleasure
    I don't know the motivations seem to be really similar here.
    Killing for meat is as far as I can tell the same as killing for inheritance...
    ...killing for the enjoyment of the act itself doesn't seem to be very detached from the above examples...
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    (Original post by Colour Me Pretty)
    Nothing makes me more sick than animal cruelty,
    I'd quite happily flog someone who was cruel to their animals.
    I agree. If anyone touches my brother's dog they will experience a painful death. The only struggle would be the choice of execution.
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    (Original post by Hest)
    It's just never gonna happen. Ever.
    We can argue as much as we like, the fact is. Meat tastes good. It is one of lifes luxurys. One of the major ones too. People will go crazy without good food. I mean, where the fuk will I get my chicken liver from?!

    Builders, rich people, athletes, and growing boys are not going to benefit from it
    There are several meats that have been banned over the years. It may appear to be outrageous but there are calls to ban kangaroo meat and I believe horse meat is illegal in the UK so it gets shipped off to France instead. Often these are poor performing race horses who couldn't find an alternative home, shot for a tenner. So if you're vegan and you bet on the horses, you better think again. Society has become more non-carnivorous over the decades and the fact that we don't eat anything that moves like China and Japan, probably shows this. Unfortunately there appears to be more condemnation to animals that are judged not be worthy of death for consumption because they are cute and fluffy, like seals. No doubt 95% of the Facebook petition group on seal hunting membership happily eat beef and pork.

    I mean, have you seen that video of a live squid being eaten by a Chinese dude? *shudders* But then again, this is no different from someone ordering a lobster in a restaurant.
 
 
 
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