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Morality for Atheists... watch

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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    And there are all sorts of explanations that could be given. You just take yours to be the correct one.
    what sorts of explanations? like accusations that he copied it from the Greeks? Or some other group of people? How can that be possible? Even if we assumed that he copied from the Greeks, there are far many other discoveries that the Greeks never dreamed of!!!
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    (Original post by saalih)
    what sorts of explanations? like accusations that he copied it from the Greeks? Or some other group of people? How can that be possible? Even if we assumed that he copied from the Greeks, there are far many other discoveries that the Greeks never dreamed of!!!
    Okay let us entertain the idea that he wrote everything there himself and it came from a 'higher being'.

    To say that being is God is very presumptuous. It could also be the equivalent of some cheeky teenage pranksters, of course not from earth, who thought they'd had a laugh and influence people to believe in a God.

    Once you open up that possibility, you open up a pretty much infinite number of possibilities.

    To just presume that it really was some creator of the universe who wasn't ever created himself etc. is best retarded.
    Moreover if you go by the 'just in case theory' to avoid 'maybe going to hell', then why pick that particular deity?
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    (Original post by there's too much love)

    To say that being is God is very presumptuous. It could also be the equivalent of some cheeky teenage pranksters, of course not from earth, who thought they'd had a laugh and influence people to believe in a God.

    Once you open up that possibility, you open up a pretty much infinite number of possibilities.
    let us look at how flawed this logic is,

    an alien decides to reveal the Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad in the Arabic language (which the Arabs old and new consider to be the highest form of Arabic eloquence), asked people to worship one God, the Creator, did not mention itself even once, referred to previous Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc., put in some scientific discoveries, gave guidance on how to live morally and told them about being accounted for what they did, about heaven and hell, etc.......!!!

    You see where this is going?

    I would rather believe it is the Creator who claims to be so many times in the Qur'an to be the one behind the revelation.....
    you go with the ridiculous assumption of the alien.....
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    (Original post by saalih)
    let us look at how flawed this logic is,

    an alien decides to reveal the Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad in the Arabic language (which the Arabs old and new consider to be the highest form of Arabic eloquence), asked people to worship one God, the Creator, did not mention itself even once, referred to previous Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc., put in some scientific discoveries, gave guidance on how to live morally and told them about being accounted for what they did, about heaven and hell, etc.......!!!
    Logically nothing wrong with that at all.
    You presume that that religions got the morality 100% correct.

    You see where this is going?
    no...
    I would rather believe it is the Creator who claims to be so many times in the Qur'an to be the one behind the revelation.....
    you go with the ridiculous assumption of the alien.....
    To the first part highlighted, LULZY.
    to the second part, which is your last sentence, I didn't say that's what I believed, but a belief I feel is perhaps more sensible than 'the creator'. But thanks for mis-representing me .
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    but a belief I feel is perhaps more sensible than 'the creator'. But thanks for mis-representing me .
    no sane person would say that the belief you presented is more sensible than "the creator".....
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    (Original post by saalih)
    no sane person would say that the belief you presented is more sensible than "the creator".....
    :facepalm2:

    how's being open minded going for you?
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    (Original post by saalih)
    let us look at how flawed this logic is,

    an alien decides to reveal the Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad in the Arabic language (which the Arabs old and new consider to be the highest form of Arabic eloquence), asked people to worship one God, the Creator, did not mention itself even once, referred to previous Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc., put in some scientific discoveries, gave guidance on how to live morally and told them about being accounted for what they did, about heaven and hell, etc.......!!!

    You see where this is going?

    I would rather believe it is the Creator who claims to be so many times in the Qur'an to be the one behind the revelation.....
    you go with the ridiculous assumption of the alien.....
    Please, you must be a troll. You make religious people seem even more silly, and that is saying something.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    let us look at how flawed this logic is,

    an alien decides to reveal the Qur'an to Prophet Muhammad in the Arabic language (which the Arabs old and new consider to be the highest form of Arabic eloquence), asked people to worship one God, the Creator, did not mention itself even once, referred to previous Prophets such as Abraham, Moses, Jesus etc., put in some scientific discoveries, gave guidance on how to live morally and told them about being accounted for what they did, about heaven and hell, etc.......!!!
    Where's the flaw, exactly?

    There is no flaw, and there's even a plausible reason an alien would do that (aside from being a prankster). Slow down humanity's progression to the space age by making us spend enormous amounts of brainpower chasing ghosts for thousands of years. Kinda like what you're doing.
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    (Original post by birdsong1)
    Where's the flaw, exactly?

    There is no flaw, and there's even a plausible reason an alien would do that (aside from being a prankster). Slow down humanity's progression to the space age by making us spend enormous amounts of brainpower chasing ghosts for thousands of years. Kinda like what you're doing.
    its a stupid conclusion to say the least......

    and no, Muslims do not chase ghosts..
    www.muslimheritage.com

    but it is Muslims of today that are forgetting their religion and are running after western civilization, which itself is crumbling
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    (Original post by Thrasymachus)
    Please, you must be a troll. You make religious people seem even more silly, and that is saying something.
    how does having a strong belief and faith in religion make religious people seem sillier!!!?? i guess you like those religious people who suck up to atheists and are apologetic about everything they do, that is what i call silly
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    (Original post by saalih)
    how does having a strong belief and faith in religion make religious people seem sillier!!!?? i guess you like those religious people who suck up to atheists and are apologetic about everything they do, that is what i call silly
    It's the fact you've looked at two rather implausable theories (Creator and Aliens), decided you're going to have a strong faith in one, while branding the other one as ridiculous - and yet still manage to accuse other people's logic as being flawed.

    You'd be better off just saying you have a strong faith in a creator regardless of what people might say - after all, God wants your faith regardless of what kind of 'evidence' people might put forward (wouldn't this evidence be part of a test of faith?). The second you try to start argue your faith logically, if anything it suggests that you're desperately just trying to justify your faith to yourself, and that you don't really feel any kind of deep connection to God that trancends logic.

    I think if God were real it would be dissapointed in your lack of fervour, because if anything it seems you are trying to suck up to atheists by appealing to their sense of logic. Admittedly a lot of atheists allow their personal feelings to cloud their ability to look at facts objectively as well - but I figure you are missing the fact that religion and faith should trancend logic shouldn't it?

    If your aim is to convert, i'm afraid you're going to fail except with those who are equally desperate to believe in something so amazing and loving (or feel they need an omnipotent creator validate their beliefs) that they are also willing to perceive facts in such a skewed way that they too can also try and 'logically' justify the existence of a creator and validity of whatever holy book you want to claim was inspired by God.

    So in answer to your question, those religious people who have and only require faith in God seem silly to non believers, but religious people who think they can somehow use logic to justify their faith, are not only weak in the faith they claim to have, they are also quite naive in thinking logic will somehow allow them to justify their claims, when the very definition of a creator God stands outside any logical claims.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    which Hindus actually said that today it is not alright to throw widows into the funeral pyre? religious Hindu clerics or the general public? can any Hindu come out and say what his religion teaches even if he does not have the proper knowledge of the original Hindu texts?
    This practice no longer exists.

    As far as im aware, there are no Hindu texts that encourage this. It was a tradition in some parts of asia thousands of years ago and widows werent thrown, they did it willingly.
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    (Original post by Thrasymachus)
    It's the fact you've looked at two rather implausable theories (Creator and Aliens), decided you're going to have a strong faith in one, while branding the other one as ridiculous - and yet still manage to accuse other people's logic as being flawed.
    a God behind a miraculous revelation http://www.jannah.org/articles/qurdeed.html makes much more sense than the illogical claim that an alien revealed the Quran to a human!!! it is just a silly way some atheists try but fail hard.....

    no wonder people from around the world (including many intelligent free minded thinkers, mathematicians, scientists, doctors, etc) are coming to Islam!!!!! because not only a God creating the universe makes sense, but the Quran could not have been revealed by anyone else BUT God!!!

    If people started using their minds more freely, they will end up at least appreciating those who believe in God rather than spending half their lives ridiculing them
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    (Original post by saalih)
    What are it's limits? Do they change with time? Are they relative? Do they differ from place to place?

    Yes there might be some things which do not change like stealing, murder, etc..

    but as far as I know premarital sex was wrong/immoral/unethical some time ago in almost every secular society...but now it has become some sort of a norm.
    this is just an example...

    so what is morality for an atheist?
    I am an Atheist but it doesn't mean I cannot share morals with a religious person. I know that stealing and murder is wrong without following a religion, I have my own moral code. However, I do not think that premarital sex is wrong like most religions say but that is an example of my morals and you have yours, let's leave it there; you cannot say that Atheists cannot have the same morals as a religious person because they are not religious.
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    (Original post by Duckzilla)
    I am an Atheist but it doesn't mean I cannot share morals with a religious person. I know that stealing and murder is wrong without following a religion, I have my own moral code. However, I do not think that premarital sex is wrong like most religions say but that is an example of my morals and you have yours, let's leave it there; you cannot say that Atheists cannot have the same morals as a religious person because they are not religious.
    first of all let me say i appreciate your response, because you did not reply cursing or making fun or attacking me....

    here is why we think premarital sex is wrong

    Pre-marital sex is absolutely forbidden in Islam, no matter whether it is with a girl-friend or a prostitute. Pre-marital sex is fornication (zina).

    It is also an irresponsible sexual behavior There is no responsibility involved in such relationships. The most vulnerable person in such relationships is the woman. Statistics can overwhelmingly prove that man has often cheated innocent women in pre-marital sex. Today half of all American men and women in their thirties cohabited before marriage, many of them on the assumption that it is better to look deeply before they leap. But studies now demonstrate that couples who cohabit before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who do not. (Newsweek, p. 57)

    Glen Elder, a sociologist at University of North Carolina, has this to say about cohabitation: "It's a relationship that attracts those, mainly men, who are looking for an easy way out and it is uncertain what, if anything, it contributes to marriage." A twenty-four year old lady wrote the following in a letter to Ann Landers: "...The line [in a previous letter] that struck home was from the teenager who said she knew lots of girls her age who had several partners 'just for the fun of it.' I found that odd because I was having sex at 16 and it was no fun at all. Sleeping with guys wasn't exciting or thrilling, it was degrading. It made me feel lonelier and emptier than ever. I also worried from month to month about being pregnant. That can be a real hell...if I could talk to the young girls who read your column, I would tell them that teenage sex doesn't solve problems, it creates more. It doesn't make a girl feel loved. It makes her feel cheap. I'd let them know that it doesn't make a girl 'more of a woman,' it can make her less of one." (The Vancouver Sun, Dec. 5, 1989)

    Allah says: Do not go near adultery, .surely it is an indecency, and an evil way [of fulfilling sexual urge]. (17:32) Fornication and adultery have severely been condemned in the saying of the Prophet. In Islam, pre-marital sex is considered an immoral act against the rights of Allah and one's own sexual organs.


    why do you think premarital sex is ok?
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    (Original post by saalih)
    first of all let me say i appreciate your response, because you did not reply cursing or making fun or attacking me....

    here is why we think premarital sex is wrong

    Pre-marital sex is absolutely forbidden in Islam, no matter whether it is with a girl-friend or a prostitute. Pre-marital sex is fornication (zina).

    It is also an irresponsible sexual behavior There is no responsibility involved in such relationships. The most vulnerable person in such relationships is the woman. Statistics can overwhelmingly prove that man has often cheated innocent women in pre-marital sex. Today half of all American men and women in their thirties cohabited before marriage, many of them on the assumption that it is better to look deeply before they leap. But studies now demonstrate that couples who cohabit before marriage are more likely to divorce than those who do not. (Newsweek, p. 57)

    Glen Elder, a sociologist at University of North Carolina, has this to say about cohabitation: "It's a relationship that attracts those, mainly men, who are looking for an easy way out and it is uncertain what, if anything, it contributes to marriage." A twenty-four year old lady wrote the following in a letter to Ann Landers: "...The line [in a previous letter] that struck home was from the teenager who said she knew lots of girls her age who had several partners 'just for the fun of it.' I found that odd because I was having sex at 16 and it was no fun at all. Sleeping with guys wasn't exciting or thrilling, it was degrading. It made me feel lonelier and emptier than ever. I also worried from month to month about being pregnant. That can be a real hell...if I could talk to the young girls who read your column, I would tell them that teenage sex doesn't solve problems, it creates more. It doesn't make a girl feel loved. It makes her feel cheap. I'd let them know that it doesn't make a girl 'more of a woman,' it can make her less of one." (The Vancouver Sun, Dec. 5, 1989)

    Allah says: Do not go near adultery, .surely it is an indecency, and an evil way [of fulfilling sexual urge]. (17:32) Fornication and adultery have severely been condemned in the saying of the Prophet. In Islam, pre-marital sex is considered an immoral act against the rights of Allah and one's own sexual organs.


    why do you think premarital sex is ok?
    I think that premarital sex is okay because if two people want to do something that does not hurt anybody else then they should not be stopped, it is a result of premarital sex that I am here in the first place.

    People can love each other without getting married, having a ring on your finger doesn't mean you are more in love than an unmarried couple. Even if you do not love each other and are having sex for fun then who are you hurting?
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    (Original post by saalih)
    a God behind a miraculous revelation http://www.jannah.org/articles/qurdeed.html makes much more sense than the illogical claim that an alien revealed the Quran to a human!!! it is just a silly way some atheists try but fail hard.....

    no wonder people from around the world (including many intelligent free minded thinkers, mathematicians, scientists, doctors, etc) are coming to Islam!!!!! because not only a God creating the universe makes sense, but the Quran could not have been revealed by anyone else BUT God!!!

    If people started using their minds more freely, they will end up at least appreciating those who believe in God rather than spending half their lives ridiculing them

    :facepalm2:

    Because the reasoning you just used is as illogical as...well nothing comes close.

    Do you actually know what being open minded is?
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Do you actually know what being open minded is?

    do you?
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    (Original post by saalih)
    do you?

    Approaching a topic with the knowledge that you may be mistaken in some way, be it an invalid argument, predicates being false, or (going with the invalid argument part) the conclusion simply being wrong.

    Another example is not starting at the conclusion and trying to prove it to be true, but starting at the predicates and seeing where the conclusion lies.

    I'm a bit tired so perhaps I left a few things out.
    Hope that helps you.
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    (Original post by Duckzilla)
    I think that premarital sex is okay because if two people want to do something that does not hurt anybody else then they should not be stopped, it is a result of premarital sex that I am here in the first place.

    People can love each other without getting married, having a ring on your finger doesn't mean you are more in love than an unmarried couple. Even if you do not love each other and are having sex for fun then who are you hurting?
    well you would still be here had your parents got married and had sex after...

    i think there is a huge difference between just love and love + marriage..marriage is a commitment, a responsibility, it only increases love..where as premarital sex sometimes involves cheating, lying, deceiving the other person that it is out of love!!!

    people who love each other and live together without marriage, tell me how many you think stay with each other forever??!!! compare that to married couples...i know not all marriages last but definitely more than "just love" relationships do..

    marriage helps in building a proper family environment....it stabilizes the structure of a household.....whereas a live-in relationship is never stable and is more prone to collapse
 
 
 
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