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    (Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
    It is a general consensus across the majority of the Western world that the death penalty is immoral, but a hundred years ago, indeed for most of the previous length of human history, the death penalty has been a popular, widely-exercised punishment for even minor crimes. Societies that have a guiding religion will be less flexible in their moral shifts, but that doesn't mean they can't occur.
    highly disagree on that...

    even today, in many societies death penalty is moral...it is an entire debate altogether even between secular/atheists...and that is the root of the problem, those who do not believe in God, will always be lost when it comes to morals, an act might be moral to someone and the other one will find the same act highly immoral!!!

    how can death penalty be immoral by the way? a human being kills the parents of 5 children, the hell that those kids will go through!!! yet putting that man to death is immoral!!! then someone might come and say, well keeping him in prison for the rest of his life is immoral because it is wasting tax money (paying rent) for a murderer!!!
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    (Original post by innerhollow)
    What?! Were you born without the ability to use logic or something? Pre-marital sex means before marriage firstly, so having an affair is not pre-marital, it's extramarital. Extramarital sex is frowned upon because of the hurt it causes your spouse in most cases.

    And what odd, twisted version of our country do you live in? The folk that frown upon pre-marital sex are very few and very far between, generally pre-marital sex is not at all whatsoever frowned upon. In fact, in much of society, NOT having pre-marital sex is frowned upon!
    My bad, that is a typo. It should say isn't frowned upon
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    (Original post by Sithius)
    Not true at all. My best friend lives in Norway, don't try and lie your way out of this one.

    In this survey on God, there were three possible responses:

    'Yes I believe in God.'
    'I believe in a spirit or life force.'
    'No, I do not believe in any of the above.'

    Clearly, the average Norwegian (including my good friend) would not choose the first, as this involves notions of religion and in particular, considering the region, the Judeo-Christian God. The second response is consequently much more appropriate. Please do explain how one could possibly interpret the mentioning of a spirit or life force to mean, say, karma? Nobody I know would choose to reply 'I believe in a spirit or life force' when they simply believe in karma. It also makes no sense considering the context of the survey, and you would definitely not want to give the wrong impression to anybody. I find it laughable that you ignore all of this by virtue of Norway being a 'different country.' Rubbish.
    Because karma is the whole thing of, "what goes around comes around, etc". (or at least it is to the common man) This is clearly a force. It is an extremely ambiguous term. end conversation/
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    (Original post by You Failed)

    It's not a case of "I shouldn't kill this guy because then I'll go to hell", it's a simple case of "I shouldn't kill this guy because what right do I have to decide the fate of his life for him". All morals can exist without having to bring any sort of higher being into the equation.
    disagree, yes one should not kill because it is wrong, but we say this thing was put in us from the beginning by God, but then comes along some other issues which are not so easy to call right or wrong!!! how does an atheist call it right or wrong? what criterion does he base his views by?

    for example, a man having sex with a woman in front of the public on the street!!! the couple would argue "what is immoral in that? we both agreed to it and we are not harming anyone"!!!!

    and many other such issues will come up...
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    I think Morality (capital M ) is essentially self-interest, as we all have a vested interest in procuring and maintaining a stable society. Our actual morals are to some extent transient, the product of our own age, but each expresses a current concern as to what will harm and subvert society at large. We all have an in-built desire not to rock the boat if you will, since we're all in it!

    You get the biggies like murder and dishonesty which seem universal frowned upon by all human civilisation, but then you also have the contingent ones like sex=sin and so on. Everything has to be taken in its own context.
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    (Original post by adamrules247)
    Because karma is the whole thing of, "what goes around comes around, etc". (or at least it is to the common man) This is clearly a force. It is an extremely ambiguous term. end conversation/
    A force is not a life force.

    So, is that all you have for your counter-argument? End conversation indeed. :rolleyes:
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    The shifting moral zeitgeist
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    (Original post by Sithius)
    A force is not a life force.

    So, is that all you have for your counter-argument? End conversation indeed. :rolleyes:
    :rolleyes:

    Like I said. It is totally ambiguous. The average joe on the street who is asked this question won't read that far into it. End conversation indeed.
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    For me they change with expiriences and information.
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    (Original post by Sithius)
    A force is not a life force.

    So, is that all you have for your counter-argument? End conversation indeed. :rolleyes:
    Thanks for your childish neg rep. That is totally pathetic in all honesty. It is clear you have just recieved a good kicking and now you will crawl away with your tail between your legs and decide to kick me in the back as I walk away. Loser.

    This is Sithius' comment

    No, they wouldn't. And at first glance, it obviously wouldn't mean karma either. Didn't feel like quoting you to say the same thing.

    Just sounds like a retreating call really

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    (Original post by adamrules247)
    Well in the UK (which has a large agnostic, athiest society) sex outside marriage is still frowned upon, the recent John Terry case is a perfect example of this.
    No it isn't, the big thing about the Terry case is that he had an affair with a team mate's partner which is a very different case to just a random affair. Especially considering that Terry had made a lot of money from building up a family man image, and had been given several awards along those lines.
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    (Original post by iwilson03)
    No it isn't, the big thing about the Terry case is that he had an affair with a team mate's partner which is a very different case to just a random affair. Especially considering that Terry had made a lot of money from building up a family man image, and had been given several awards along those lines.
    Read above comments to show this was a misunderstanding.
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    You can have a God-independant objective morality - Moral cognitivism.
    Plato's forms for example.
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    (Original post by adamrules247)
    Read above comments to show this was a misunderstanding.
    Oh cool I see.

    Still, you realise that you are wrong about the whole karma thing? When people say that they believe in some kind of life force they tend to mean the idea that there is a non-interventionist 'higher force' which perhaps triggered the universe and created its laws or whatever - it is subjective because it isn't an organised religion but in no way could you put 'karma' into this same category...
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    (Original post by saalih)
    so what is morality for an atheist?
    This is a large and rather complicated topic. You would do best to purchase some books on the topic if you seek an understanding of the various answers to your question. It is impossible to do justice to the question on TSR.
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    Morality is a social construct, and will continue to exist even if Religion does not.

    Christianity, Judaism, Islam and any other religion does not make someone a good person.
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    :lolwut:

    Translation: Their god tells them to do something so they do it, thus proving that they are capable for thinking for themselves.

    Please tell me I've mis-interpreted this, otherwise it's one hell of a logic fail on your behalf...
    I said they can tell me what God would and would not ask them to do, not "Their god tells them to do something so they do it".
    If they can say that God would not tell them to do something then they are deciding what is right or wrong, not God.
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    I always think atheists with a concept of right and wrong are rather farcical. You have to have an objective standard (e.g. an all knowing God) to base your beliefs on, otherwise your morals are just self imposed limits.
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    (Original post by adamrules247)
    Any athiests who have morals also have doubts about their own beliefs
    Please could you expand that a little? I would say I have morals, but im also an atheist and i dont have questions about my religious opinion. I wouldnt say there is certainly no god, but i would say its highly unlikely, similar to the chances of say superman being real. Do you think morality must be derived from god? If so, which god?
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    (Original post by saalih)
    disagree, yes one should not kill because it is wrong, but we say this thing was put in us from the beginning by God, but then comes along some other issues which are not so easy to call right or wrong!!! how does an atheist call it right or wrong? what criterion does he base his views by?

    for example, a man having sex with a woman in front of the public on the street!!! the couple would argue "what is immoral in that? we both agreed to it and we are not harming anyone"!!!!

    and many other such issues will come up...
    Wow, no offense but your argument is incredibly stupid...

    If there are issues that are so ambigious that it's hard to make a decision as to whether it's right or wrong, then generally whether it is actually right or wrong comes down to certain factors such as whether or not it's against the law or your personal opinions on the matter.

    Your example was terrible, not only is having sex in front of the public illegal, it's can also be considered offensive to the people who are exposed to it and since it's in public, you're also exposing young children to it. Nowhere do you have to consider the morals of a higher being to conclude that it's indecent and wrong.

    I maintain that all situations can be given a moral tag of right or wrong based on factors that do not include the opinions of a so called "higher being".
 
 
 
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