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    (Original post by Komakino)
    What an absurd article, you speak as if morality is a definite thing, its not as if all religious types have the same conception of morality so why assume all atheists do?
    Our most solid base of morality is human rights, from there onwards its a question of interpretation both between what the law deems right and wrong and what you deem right and wrong. This is the nearest thing we have to an omniscient overseeing god who is able to decide in every given occasion what is the right thing to do.
    who would know better than God...?

    man made laws and those so called human rights organizations will always have flaws because of their biases...
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    (Original post by You Failed)
    You have yet to provide any sort of proof that morals need to be dictated by a higher being and you have yet to provide any sort of example that supports this. You won't find a proof either because it doesn't exist. All morals can and are reasoned without the need for intervention from some 'God'.

    well for someone not believing in God Himself, nothing would convince you...

    the point is, human beings cannot decide what is moral or not simply because of their ignornace/bias...

    pre marital sex, which is ok now, was not some time ago, who changed that view? and why?
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    (Original post by tengil)
    Do not really see the connection morality - religion. Are you saying that not believing in a god leaves you with no moral values at all? Moral values are made by society, not som god. Some moral values change when further research in the subject is made. Others when new technology is introduced.
    people are not getting my post,

    I am not saying atheists have no morality whatsoever, there are some common things all human beings share regarding moral acts, but in some matter, atheists will do immoral acts because it comes down to their own way of thinking of what is right or wrong, not everything is as clear as killing is wrong, or stealing is wrong, there are some other things, pre marital sex, pornography, etc...someone will say well law is there to define what is right or wrong, but isn't law also subjective? depending on who is making the decisions, some places prostitution is allowed, some places pornography is allowed etc..

    religion defines such things and gives clear cut answers to have a better and more civilized society...
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    (Original post by Diminutive)
    I love the implication that if religious-folk didn't have religion, they'd all be psychopathic killers with no conscience.

    I don't need to be scared of an all mighty being to do what's right. Empathy and conscience help me to be a better person *nods*
    conscience, where did they come from if not from God?

    and empathy can be purely subjective, if you feel empathy for something, someone else might not, so who is right and who is wrong?

    religion makes it clear to have a better and just society
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    (Original post by saalih)
    who would know better than God...?

    man made laws and those so called human rights organizations will always have flaws because of their biases...
    That's true, but unfortunately we don't have proof that god exists, and thus we have to use our imperfect rational deliberative judgement to formulate moral doctrines. The notion of a universal declaration of human rights is based on hundreds if not thousands of years of deliberation between very intelligent human beings and is thus the best we have.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    people are not getting my post,

    I am not saying atheists have no morality whatsoever, there are some common things all human beings share regarding moral acts, but in some matter, atheists will do immoral acts because it comes down to their own way of thinking of what is right or wrong, not everything is as clear as killing is wrong, or stealing is wrong, there are some other things, pre marital sex, pornography, etc...someone will say well law is there to define what is right or wrong, but isn't law also subjective? depending on who is making the decisions, some places prostitution is allowed, some places pornography is allowed etc..

    religion defines such things and gives clear cut answers to have a better and more civilized society...
    Yes and not all religions agree on what is right and wrong, so your argument falls flat, people even religious people have to decide for themselves whether or not to accept religious doctrine about moral values some choose not to, you speak as if this is black and white. At the end of the day, morality is subjective, that's why its hard to establish common ground, thats why its taken us thousands of years to do so.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    conscience, where did they come from if not from God?

    and empathy can be purely subjective, if you feel empathy for something, someone else might not, so who is right and who is wrong?

    religion makes it clear to have a better and just society

    Conscience is nothing but memory of things we've done.... and we feel bad about the bad things. Its just part of the human brain. You really can't use that argument to prove the existence of God.... else you could say the fact that we have any features means there's a god. But in fact, that "feature" of humans is just evolution. Clearly one of the ways human survived despite being a physically weak species is by caring for one another. Thinking as a group/community rather than individuals. One for all and all for one type thing.


    Clearly empathy is subjective.... thats why we have criminals who hurt other people. They lack in empathy... they don't consider how the other person will feel from their actions. Clearly the one who is right is the one not hurting people. We might all have different senses of right or wrong... but the biggies like murder and rape are pretty universal.

    religion makes it clear to have a better and just society
    Not even going to humour that. Consider the amount of inhumane acts that have been carried out in the name of religion... witch burning, many current civil wars, terrorist attacks and the list goes on.

    Scaring people into doing the right thing or else the big guy in the sky will punish you for eternity is not the reason that the majority of people are decent human beings.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    conscience, where did they come from if not from God?

    and empathy can be purely subjective, if you feel empathy for something, someone else might not, so who is right and who is wrong?

    religion makes it clear to have a better and just society
    Aren't religious principles subjective also? Reform Jews, as an example, have more liberal attitudes than conservative Jews. Who is right or wrong, in an objective sense?

    And yes, empathy is relative. Everything is relative. However, human beings commonly hold empathy for persons in suffering. I would say that this is human nature, since it is near universal in people, in all places.
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    (Original post by Diminutive)
    Conscience is nothing but memory of things we've done.... and we feel bad about the bad things. Its just part of the human brain. You really can't use that argument to prove the existence of God.... else you could say the fact that we have any features means there's a god. But in fact, that "feature" of humans is just evolution. Clearly one of the ways human survived despite being a physically weak species is by caring for one another. Thinking as a group/community rather than individuals. One for all and all for one type thing.


    Clearly empathy is subjective.... thats why we have criminals who hurt other people. They lack in empathy... they don't consider how the other person will feel from their actions. Clearly the one who is right is the one not hurting people. We might all have different senses of right or wrong... but the biggies like murder and rape are pretty universal.



    Not even going to humour that. Consider the amount of inhumane acts that have been carried out in the name of religion... witch burning, many current civil wars, terrorist attacks and the list goes on.

    Scaring people into doing the right thing or else the big guy in the sky will punish you for eternity is not the reason that the majority of people are decent human beings.
    A good point, interestingly there's plenty of research to suggested people with Autism lack the capacity to empathise as well which would explain some of the trouble with social skills inherent to the condition.
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    (Original post by Komakino)
    Yes and not all religions agree on what is right and wrong, so your argument falls flat, people even religious people have to decide for themselves whether or not to accept religious doctrine about moral values some choose not to, you speak as if this is black and white. At the end of the day, morality is subjective, that's why its hard to establish common ground, thats why its taken us thousands of years to do so.
    well that is an entire different argument on religion......since all religious teachings have been manipulated/changed/edited/interpolated by human beings barring one religion.....plus major religions such as judaism & christianity & hinduism have foretold in their scriptures about the last and final Messenger the Prophet Muhammad.....but as i said that is a different topic altogether
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    (Original post by Diminutive)



    Not even going to humour that. Consider the amount of inhumane acts that have been carried out in the name of religion... witch burning, many current civil wars, terrorist attacks and the list goes on.

    Scaring people into doing the right thing or else the big guy in the sky will punish you for eternity is not the reason that the majority of people are decent human beings.
    throughout history, more deaths have been caused by non religious people or those who misused religion, religion itself was never the cause of inhumane acts...

    WWI & WWII, invasion of Iraq etc.....have nothing to do with religion..

    according to those killing innocent civilians in Iraq they are doing a moral thing!!! thats the problem when human beings start to play with morality for their own favor......Religion regulates it
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    (Original post by saalih)
    well that is an entire different argument on religion......since all religious teachings have been manipulated/changed/edited/interpolated by human beings barring one religion.....plus major religions such as judaism & christianity & hinduism have foretold in their scriptures about the last and final Messenger the Prophet Muhammad.....but as i said that is a different topic altogether
    Right yes, you're religion is the one true religion, of course, I imagine however that followers from every religion would make the same claims. However no conclusive proof has been given and it is sadly a matter of interpretation. My point still stands and I'd add to it, firstly your religion doesn't have an answer for every moral predicament so the question of individual deliberation is still important, and secondly any practicing Muslim can choose to interpret the Quran how they wish so individual deliberation is still important.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    well for someone not believing in God Himself, nothing would convince you...

    the point is, human beings cannot decide what is moral or not simply because of their ignornace/bias...

    pre marital sex, which is ok now, was not some time ago, who changed that view? and why?
    Your point reinforces my point, not your own.

    If morals have changed with time and there has been no evidence to suggest that 'God' has interfered, which there hasn't, then you can conclude that morals have evolved without the need for a God to dictate them and hence it is Human beings, not 'God' that has created these morals.

    As to why they changed, this is probably due to a wide variety of social factors that have developed as our society has evolved and changed.
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    (Original post by Komakino)
    Right yes, you're religion is the one true religion, of course, I imagine however that followers from every religion would make the same claims. However no conclusive proof has been given and it is sadly a matter of interpretation. My point still stands and I'd add to it, firstly your religion doesn't have an answer for every moral predicament so the question of individual deliberation is still important, and secondly any practicing Muslim can choose to interpret the Quran how they wish so individual deliberation is still important.
    examine each religion critically and with an open mind, and you will be left with no other choice but Islam......many atheists, christians and others have done so and reached the same conclusion....

    other religious scriptures have been manipulated/changed many times..Qur'an is the only book claiming to be from God which is unchanged..
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    (Original post by saalih)
    examine each religion critically and with an open mind, and you will be left with no other choice but Islam......many atheists, christians and others have done so and reached the same conclusion....
    I've done that. I didn't find Islam particularly special.
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    (Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
    I've done that. I didn't find Islam particularly special.
    well there is no compulsion in religion, you didnt find it special, many others did....

    at the end of the day, everyone will face death, then everyone will find out the truth but it will be too late....
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    (Original post by saalih)
    well there is no compulsion in religion, you didnt find it special, many others did....

    at the end of the day, everyone will face death, then everyone will find out the truth but it will be too late....
    Do you think you would believe in the islamic god if it wasn't hammered into your head when you were santa-claus eligible and corked in with fear? Do you think, if we removed all our cultural history and examined the world without bias, we would be able to conclude that god existed? I don't. The attributes you give your god don't even match up with the supposed 'proof' of his existence. It's utterly contradictory.
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    (Original post by saalih)
    examine each religion critically and with an open mind, and you will be left with no other choice but Islam......many atheists, christians and others have done so and reached the same conclusion....

    other religious scriptures have been manipulated/changed many times..Qur'an is the only book claiming to be from God which is unchanged..
    In all likelihood I'm not going to do that, because quite frankly I don't care, all religion is backward and dogmatic.
    You failed to comment on my main point however, for any moral doctrine people will have to choose to accept it regardless of whether they do so as a religious person or not, so in doing so they will go through the same personal process of deliberation. For every person their will be a different input based on their background influences to their decision-making and therefore for every person there will be a different output, therefore morality is inherently subjective and we can only agree on common ground for basic things, human rights being on such thing. Now you may contest that all the information is there in the Qu'ran but I would reply, but all those who follow Islam will not agree on exactly what the text tells us, therefore I reassert that the text must be interpreted and it will done so differently, it would be impossible to agree on every word. My point stands, morality is inherently subjective and we must all decide what it means to us, of course certain things like human rights are not up for discussion, we have been discussing them for thousands of years and have reached a conclusion.
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    (Original post by Komakino)
    In all likelihood I'm not going to do that, because quite frankly I don't care, all religion is backward and dogmatic.
    You failed to comment on my main point however, for any moral doctrine people will have to choose to accept it regardless of whether they do so as a religious person or not, so in doing so they will go through the same personal process of deliberation. For every person their will be a different input based on their background influences to their decision-making and therefore for every person there will be a different output, therefore morality is inherently subjective and we can only agree on common ground for basic things, human rights being on such thing. Now you may contest that all the information is there in the Qu'ran but I would reply, but all those who follow Islam will not agree on exactly what the text tells us, therefore I reassert that the text must be interpreted and it will done so differently, it would be impossible to agree on every word. My point stands, morality is inherently subjective and we must all decide what it means to us, of course certain things like human rights are not up for discussion, we have been discussing them for thousands of years and have reached a conclusion.
    disagree....

    first of all not every religion is backwards..

    as for morality being inherently subjective, the thing is in case of a conflict, we can go back to the Qur'an and the tradition of the Prophet Muhammad....both revelations from God, whereas an atheist will go back to another human made authority (human rights/law) which might be flawed and unjust.....
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    (Original post by ForeverIsMyName)
    Do you think you would believe in the islamic god if it wasn't hammered into your head when you were santa-claus eligible and corked in with fear? Do you think, if we removed all our cultural history and examined the world without bias, we would be able to conclude that god existed? I don't. The attributes you give your god don't even match up with the supposed 'proof' of his existence. It's utterly contradictory.
    nothing was hammered into my head.....i chose Islam even though I was born in a Muslim family....

    forget me, what about those who had nothing to do with Islam, in fact some of them were anti-Islam (http://www.scribd.com/doc/17637/The-...by-Gary-Miller) and chose Islam on their own, without any pressure......remove any cultural history and anything you want, every creation in the universe points towards God......if you cannot see it, that is not my problem....
 
 
 
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