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Swiss antagonist of minarets embraces Islam watch

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    I just feel so .. angry, when hear about things Islam does to good people.
    And i feel even angrier when i realise the majority of people in this world are too ******* cowardly to do anything about it.

    It's a bit of a ridiculous contemplation, that a staunch liberal like myself is left thinking if the middle ages where people with ideologies superior were doing something to combat the biggest threat to humanity since year 800.
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    I just feel so .. angry, when hear about things Islam does to good people.
    And i feel even angrier when i realise the majority of people in this world are too ******* cowardly to do anything about it.

    It's a bit of a ridiculous contemplation, that a staunch liberal like myself is left thinking if the middle ages where people with ideologies superior were doing something to combat the biggest threat to humanity since year 800.
    so you think Islam is a threat, do you?
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    (Original post by Prokaryotic_crap)
    so you think Islam is a threat, do you?
    Naahhh, what gave you that idea?
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    Naahhh, what gave you that idea?
    No sarcasm please

    I'm asking kindly, if you think Islam is a threat, can you please tell me why?

    I genuinely want to know.
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    (Original post by Prokaryotic_crap)
    No sarcasm please

    I'm asking kindly, if you think Islam is a threat, can you please tell me why?

    I genuinely want to know.
    Because it is extremely inhumane, unjustified, irrational, backward, and violently so.
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    (Original post by Moe Lester)
    This is so pathetic, sums organised religon up frankly. It's like some tribalistic little club with greetings and so on. Surely if Allah is real you shouldn't care about converts, why does anyone even care about converts?
    Agreed on the whole. But that also begs the question why militant atheists now have websites with 'deconversion pages', such as that on Dawkin's website where new atheists are welcomed and congratulated.

    Surely if God doesn't exist, none of these 'enlightened' new-age atheists should care or try so hard about pushing their atheism down everybody else's throats just how evangelical theists do. It all comes down to such a ridiculous and arrogant sense of certainty that what you believe is the truth that it needs to be forced on to others, be it the "truth of a religion" or the "truth of the non-existence of God".

    Basically, I agree with you but I think it sums up some certain bad aspects which are common to organised religion and atheist societies too.
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    (Original post by Lefty Leo)
    Because it is extremely inhumane, unjustified, irrational, backward, and violently so.
    can you please give me examples of how Islam can be attributed to those descriptions please?

    I hope you came up with your own conclusion that Islam is the above, and not from the media.
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    (Original post by Prokaryotic_crap)
    can you please give me examples of how Islam can be attributed to those descriptions please?

    I hope you came up with your own conclusion that Islam is the above, and not from the media.
    I have. I spent years thinking Islam was a 'victim'; i did some substantial research on the koran, the history of Islam and my own country, India, and my conclusions were so strongly opposed that the fact that i used to be a Muslim apologist sickens me.
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    Prokaryotic_crap

    If Islam is so good, and the West is so bad, why is it so that Muslims want to live in the west and almost no westerner wants to live in Islamic countries?

    Why is it so, that the Muslims import western culture/technology, yet the West wants almost nothing from the other, except for oil of course, but it has absolutely zero ties to the Islamic culture?

    please, explain
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    (Original post by Hafnium-174)
    Prokaryotic_crap

    If Islam is so good, and the West is so bad, why is it so that Muslims want to live in the west and almost no westerner wants to live in Islamic countries?

    Why is it so, that the Muslims import western culture/technology, yet the West wants almost nothing from the other, except for oil of course, but it has absolutely zero ties to the Islamic culture?

    please, explain
    Right. So now all the problems developing countries in the Middle-East and North Africa face hinges purely on religion does it? That's too simplistic a view to take and what you're asking of the OP is unfair. Also, define 'good' and 'bad'. Both are abstract notions that no two people can agree on exactly. As for Muslims choosing to live in the West, yea, the conditions in many of these 'so-called Islamic' countries are horrible. But that's more to do with corrupt, autocratic political systems than religion. Finally, I've come across plenty of expats in my time in the Middle-East. A lot of them had formed communities where they were happy. o.o

    This whole West vs Islam thing is tedious. The simple thing people often forget is that people on the other side are just people as well who want to get on with their lives.

    For a start, it's not only Muslim countries that adopt Western culture/technology- you will find that countries across the globe from Far East Asia, Africa and South America, wherever have been following suit. There's a word for it: globalisation. Affulent countries in the developed world are clearly in an advantageous situation to circulate their ideas, languages and popular culture transnationally.

    Historically, the West owes the 'Islamic civilisation' for contributions in maths, science, philosophy, medicine, etc. So claiming it has absolutely no ties to the West is erroneous.
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    (Original post by Moroseblight)
    Right. So now all the problems developing countries in the Middle-East and North Africa face hinges purely on religion does it? That's too simplistic a view to take and what you're asking of the OP is unfair. Also, define 'good' and 'bad'. Both are abstract notions that no two people can agree on exactly. As for Muslims choosing to live in the West, yea, the conditions in many of these 'so-called Islamic' countries are horrible. But that's more to do with corrupt, autocratic political systems than religion. Finally, I've come across plenty of expats in my time in the Middle-East. A lot of them had formed communities where they were happy. o.o

    This whole West vs Islam thing is tedious. The simple thing people often forget is that people on the other side are just people as well who want to get on with their lives.

    For a start, it's not only Muslim countries that adopt Western culture/technology- you will find that countries across the globe from Far East Asia, Africa and South America, wherever have been following suit. There's a word for it: globalisation. Affulent countries in the developed world are clearly in an advantageous situation to circulate their ideas, languages and popular culture transnationally.

    Historically, the West owes the 'Islamic civilisation' for contributions in maths, science, philosophy, medicine, etc. So claiming it has absolutely no ties to the West is erroneous.
    I am not anti-Islam, I am anti-religion. I am perfectly fine with passive/liberal religion, in fact, i can quite like it in some contexts. But, i am 100% against any religion, that decides what is good or bad based on 1000y+ old texts. They may have been progressive and good in those times, but they had their time and are not needed anymore.

    Defining good or bad is hard, but i still have to say this:

    -80y life expectancy
    -40h work per week for everyone
    -amazing education and entertainment possibilities
    and a lot more

    For me, that is 'good', and I find it hard to believe and it did not happened because The Bible or Quran said so....

    Yes, Islamic countries aren't the only ones in contact with the West, but compared to say, China... Let's just say I would much rather be under influence of China, rather than the Islamic states.

    Talking of influence, Industrial revolution, and the science/engineering directly leading to that, are purely Western. Nowadays Eastern Asia has a very high probability to became the new dominant force, have maid major reforms, took the good ideas of the West and expand on it(unlike Muslim world), due to that I have much respect.
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    (Original post by Hafnium-174)
    ...
    First off, I never said you were anti-Islam and frankly don't care whether you are or are just anti-religious - it's your opinion *shrugs* I was more interested in the points you put forward.

    Fair enough. What you've described is what you understand to be good, but even developed countries are not without their faults and cannot wholly fit this definition of good.

    Yes, but it owes something to the knowledge gained from a previous era. This stands true for the discoveries made by Arabs/Muslims in maths particularly (the development of algebra and geometry) as you can't have pulled out contemporary notions from thin air.

    The 'Muslim world', if such a thing exists hence the quotation marks, has been decadent for centuries. For one reason or another, countries in that region have degenerated and abandoned the englightened thinking that was prevalent in their golden age. Hence, there has been minimal progress. Another interesting thing to note here is how much of an effect the foreign policy agendas of the developed world have had in precipitating this situation. Since the demise of the Ottoman Empire, the Middle-East has been in turmoil and has had a very turbulent history. In one form or another, the region has been exploited whether by its own corrupt rulers or by developed countries wanting resources and power. For instance, the US government has proactively followed a policy of supporting dictators such as Saddam Hussein when it suited them (the Iraq-Iran War) before abandoning and removing them. If the people in that region were never free, and have only the illusion of freedom, how can they advance themselves?

    (From personal experience, I'm inclined to agree with you that there are definitely some people who don't deserve any respect for failing to have any inclination to improve themselves, and thus their country. In Saudi Arabia, for example, I often witnessed children gleefully throwing and viciously dismantling schoolbooks at the end of the school year. Makes you think, if they take that attitude to learning from a young age, what hope do they have? )
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    (Original post by FyreFight)
    So some berk I've never heard of from thousands of miles away changed his mind on an issue of bugger all importance. I honestly don't care. I don't see why this is in the news, let alone interesting enough to create a thread about.
    :yes:

    (Original post by Prokaryotic_crap)
    he is a swizz politician that was anti-islam, now he is pro-Islam, so it is worthy to be on the news, if you are not interested then bugger off
    :lol:

    this thread is just a message to all those who hate Islam and want to attack it
    No it's not. It's just a thread about a guy who's changed his path.


    (Original post by Prokaryotic_crap)
    It shows, it shows, unlike other religions, Islam breeds produces real men

    :rofl:
    Or maybe it shows the wrong message is being sent out.


    (Original post by Hubert Poo)
    Defend your religion, by all means - I and no doubt many others here would like to understand this man's bizarre conviction, and indeed the now typical pomposity of systematically announcing to all and sundry that some unimportant person has "converted" to it. Saying that seemed unfortunate. I'm sitting here, you see, thinking this religion (whoops, nearly called it a political movement pure and simple :shh:) seems like a wonderful future for the world. :o:

    If my right nut decided to convert I guess it would be worthy of another thread to announce the impending Islamification of the rest of my scrotal region, no?

    Now, I'd like to demonstrate more respect for the faith you clearly hold dear. If indeed such respect was forthcoming to those who do not share your views without seeing a hissy fit on your part and many of your kind.

    TSR has become ridiculous for this nonsense over the past year or so and it's about time someone said something.
    Excellent post!

    :beer:
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    (Original post by PGtips92)
    I presume you've got an unbiased source for all those figures..?

    Oh, and even if the figures are true, that's hardly any. In Germany, that means 0.004 % of the population converted to Islam. By way of comparison, every hour, 667 muslims in Africa convert to Christianity... not that this means anything whatsoever but, you know, touché. Oh btw I'm not a Christian. In fact, Atheism is probably growing in numbers faster than Islam or Christianity or any other religion. Or maybe I'm just talking out my arse with no sources to back up it up.....?

    Oh btw, according to this, Islam isn't even the fastest growing religion by converts...
    Wow, arent you a sensitive little herb? Grow up.
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    (Original post by MrGuillotine)
    Wow, arent you a sensitive little herb? Grow up.
    If you can't attack the argument, attack the person
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    (Original post by Moroseblight)
    ...
    I am not some random ultra conservative that has any illusions, that the West is some fairytale good guys, but out of the powers in the world(The West, China, Russia, Muslim world), I see Islam the worst option out of all of them. I am from a country that has not yet 100% been integrated into any of the spheres of influence(google Estonia if you care), but I still have to say that, today, I am only alive due to the contact with Western culture and the strongly oppose any group that is strongly against "Westernization" due to some random rigid old book from many thousands of years ago.
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    (Original post by Hafnium-174)
    ...
    Fair enough. If by 'Westernisation' you mean the advancement/improvement/and adoption of technology, socioeconomical, political, philosophical ideas, values and such of the 'West' by non-Western countries, then I'd argue that a majority in the 'Islamic world' (And I detest using these terms. so vague) don't oppose it. What they do oppose is the double standard exhibited by these developed countries when it comes to the affairs of countries in the Middle-East particularly- the devaluation of their lives and culture. Islam is a religion and only that. It physically cannot oppose or support ideas, that is done by the people who follow it. And we're talking what, a little over a billion followers, each of those as different as can be. So Islam cannot be a single option here because it would be absurd to look at it that way. You don't classify the 'Western' countries as Christian, so why do the same for countries that have a predominately Muslim population? The Islamic world does not exist in the physical sense (I say physical because it can be argued that a spiritual one may exist, in that a Muslim may say another in another country as their brother) There are some people who would like it to and equally people who wouldn't.

    And I'd like to end it on that note. I will read any reply you make, but won't guarantee a response. That's my last 2 pence and I have too much work I ought to be getting on. I shall google Estonia when I have the time. Cheers, it was nice having this exchange with you
 
 
 
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