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How come the US is so patriotic (and we're not)? Watch

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    (Original post by JW92)
    Sorry to generalise! I used to know some kids who lived in Texas, and had to sing the state and national anthem each morning. They only learnt about Texan history up to high school-ish age and then only learnt about American history. I just find that really perverse, but that is the deep south after all.
    Well, Texas, has never been regarded as the "Deep South" But, never mind that - bear in mind that Austin, the state capital of Texas, is probably more liberal than Seattle! Remember that Texas is 3 times the size of the UK - it's a very diverse state.
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    I think many people don't feel very "British" where I live. However, to say that people don't feel patriotic about being Welsh, Scottish or Irish (or English I presume) I think would be untrue. We wave flags and even know the words to our national anthem, surprisingly. Whereas I couldn't recite more than the first line of God Save the Queen, and I have never heard it, except from at rugby matches where England are playing.

    On the other hand, Danish people have their flag everywhere. At first I thought they were simply patriotic, but it turns out it's used almost as a symbol of celebration. Their Christmas trees have their flag on, as does the goose/duck/etc, and they have flagpoles outside their house. You can't walk down the street without seeing a Danish flag, it's a different form of patriotism.

    However, American patriotism seems so overt, ostentatious and almost brainwashed to me. Just a generalisation, of course.
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    Watch the last night at the proms if you want to see true Patriotism!
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    (Original post by PGtips92)
    I mean, can you imagine pledging your allegiance to the Union Jack?
    Why the hell would you want to - it's a ludicrous idea, pledging allegiance to a bit of fabric. I have pledged allegiance to the Queen before - and its a regular part of certain things, like Scouts groups. Moreover, Loyal Toasts are made during dinners, a practice which I've never heard of in the United States.

    We are fairly patriotic, but we just have different ways of demonstrating it. The Americans imbue their flag with mystical qualities whilst we have things like the monarchy: and symbols of that are everywhere.

    (Original post by pinkpenguin)
    Tbf, I'm actually kinda glad that one isn't widely sung. Imperialist twaddle.
    Actually, it's not remotely imperialist - it was generally referencing internal enemies rather than foreign or, where foreigners were concerned, it was the other imperial powers such as the French. I believe, however, that verse was directed generally at the Jacobites.

    (Original post by flugestuge)
    And almost none of you know the UK national anthem.
    The third verse is virtually unknown.
    Nonsense. What you present as the third verse is most popularly used as the second (and last) verse. It is that way at, for example, Last Night of the Proms or in the Church of Scotland hymnals.

    (Original post by Blu3j4yw4y)
    I'd say a couple of reasons

    1) The United Kingdom has never been very united. There's a lot of past tension between England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Most of it seems to be between England and the others, and seeing as England is the biggest power in the UK, it makes it difficult for all the countries to feel together.

    Thankfully, most of the resentment is gone nowadays, but we're still not at the patriotic stage. Most of the people I know will say they are Scottish before British.
    If you're trying to present America as some sort of weird place with no local identities then you'd be wrong. You'll find, for example, plenty of proud Texans who are also proudly Americans.

    As for the UK being historically disunited, I think that's pretty much false ever since the Union. Ireland broke away obviously, but the only significant events which could have resulted in break-up of the UK were the Jacobite Risings, and that was primarily an issue of Royal lineage - and of course, there were massively more Scots who supported the Government than the Rebels.

    Contrast this to the United States, which effectively did divide and required a bloody Civil War to hold it together.

    (Original post by rrea436)
    thats 5/6 verses the 6th involves slattering scotts so i'll not post it up
    There's no such verse. A verse to the tune of the lyrics was about 'rebellious Scots' (ie, Jacobites) was apparently sung a couple of times unofficially in 1745, but was virtually unknown and undocumented until a few Scottish nationalists tried to pretend it was ever part of the song. It's basically a lie.
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    It's called brainwashing dude
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    (Original post by Blu3j4yw4y)
    I'm a little bit bewildered as to where on earth you got that idea

    I was making a point about the lack of unity in United Kingdom. I didn't even mention the US. :confused:

    I think you misunderstand my point. It's not that the fact that there are different cultures within the United Kingdom that causes problems, its the way these cultures feel about each other
    This discussion is about how the UK and US differ with regards to patriotism. My position is that you seem to be assuming that local rivalries, secessionist movements and distrust of central government are somehow peculiarly British things, when in fact they exist in virtually every country of any size on earth - usually in a far more pronounced way.

    The UK is a relatively homogeneous country, culturally speaking.

    You don't need a huge revolt like the Civil War to create tension.
    It certainly helps.

    After all, I've frequently heard people in Scotland say they dislike use of the Union Flag, because it incorporates the English flag, something they will never feel associated with. Similarly some people dislike use of "British" on the passport. I expect there are those in England who feel the same.

    I've never heard anyone in the US object to the flag because they don't want associated with any of the other 49 stars.
    Well, the people you hear that sort of thing from are Scottish nationalists who, aside from being barking mad, have equivalents in virtually every other country on earth. In virtually every country of any size there are secessionist movements.
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    If I was American I wouldn't go parading it around everywhere.
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    Well, Texas, has never been regarded as the "Deep South" But, never mind that - bear in mind that Austin, the state capital of Texas, is probably more liberal than Seattle! Remember that Texas is 3 times the size of the UK - it's a very diverse state.
    Being from Texas and having lived there 22 years, I can attest this is true. Go from the Gulf Coast region to central to the panhandle and you'll find all sorts of differing views. You simply cannot paint us (Texas and America both) with the same brush. To do so is over simplification and stereotyping to an extreme.

    However, American patriotism seems so overt, ostentatious and almost brainwashed to me. Just a generalisation, of course.
    It's really not that overt unless you get to some select areas. Yes, we all know the pledge, and the SSB, some even know their state songs (yah, we have state songs; Texas' is "Yellow Rose of Texas" I believe. Edit: Actually it's "Texas, Our Texas" now that I think about it.) but it's not like people walk down the streets going "AMERICA! **** YAH!" or any such nonsense. They fly flags (and even then it's a minority amount that do), maybe have a 'support our troops' ribbon on their car, and speak of America in a positive light in comparison to other countries. But most people I know hate the politics in the country and wish a lot of the **** we have going on would change if we could kick Congress' asses into gear. Doesn't sound too different from the feelings I've read on here that y'all hold towards y'alls own government.


    Why the hell would you want to - it's a ludicrous idea, pledging allegiance to a bit of fabric.
    Oh come now, don't be daft. We're not pledging allegiance to the flag, that's only the words. The flag is a symbol for the country. Why on earth would a country who founded itself on getting AWAY from monarchy and tyranny EVER want to pledge itself to a person? We pledge our allegiance to the flag because the flag represents the entire United States.


    The Americans imbue their flag with mystical qualities
    No, we don't. We treat it with respect, but no one thinks the flag can do any more but look lovely on the breeze.
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    Because there is no such thing as "The British Dream"...
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    I think it probably has a lot to do with the Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland thing. Most people I know associate much more with Scotland than they do Britain and I sort of feel the same way, although I still wouldn't call myself patriotic.
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    You're confusing patriotism with nationalism.
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    (Original post by lauren--c)
    I think it probably has a lot to do with the Scotland, England, Wales, Northern Ireland thing. Most people I know associate much more with Scotland than they do Britain and I sort of feel the same way, although I still wouldn't call myself patriotic.
    People naturally associate themselves more closely with cultural groups more immediately bound to them. Which is presumably why people also emphasise their nationalities over, say, a European identity. That's not just a British thing.

    That said, there are plenty of exceptions to that rule. I'm Scottish, but I'd generally not identify as such. My nationality is unequivocally British - but that said, I identify far more with more local areas like my county.

    (Original post by llys)
    Because there is no such thing as "The British Dream"...
    A lot of people come to Britain looking for prosperity. Isn't that the same thing?
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    (Original post by L i b)
    People naturally associate themselves more closely with cultural groups more immediately bound to them. Which is presumably why people also emphasise their nationalities over, say, a European identity. That's not just a British thing.

    That said, there are plenty of exceptions to that rule. I'm Scottish, but I'd generally not identify as such. My nationality is unequivocally British - but that said, I identify far more with more local areas like my county.
    Oh it's definitely not just a British thing, I agree with you there, and there'll always be exceptions.
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    Because the United States have something to be proud of, where as in the UK we don't anymore.
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    (Original post by Joluk)
    Because the United States have something to be proud of, where as in the UK we don't anymore.
    Er, may I ask what, precisely, that is? :confused:
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    Please excuse my laziness but after reading through all of that I really don't want to go back through it all and copy and paste the exact statements. So if you recognize that I'm addressing your comment please pipe in with your response!

    -On Our Flag, our love of it, and our Pledge of Allegiance to it.

    "I pledge allegiance to the flag,
    Of the United States of America,
    And to the republic FOR WHICH IT STANDS.
    One Nation, Under God.
    Indivisible, with liberty and Justice for all."

    This is the Pledge of Allegiance that I had to recite every morning before school started. Most Americans have it memorized even in their later years. Though the flag is a "piece of fabric" it is not viewed as such. People do not pledge to the actually flag but to all that the flag represents. The pledge is to the ideals and the Constitution of our country. It is a pledge to every one who died for and worked to building our country. Its a pledge to uphold the ideals they held so dear and to never let them slip away into tyranny. So in essence the pledge is not blindless devotion (though I can see where you could see that) but a reconfirmation of what we are and what we must strive for every day. I know I am overly romantic about this but I was raised in the military culture and I loved this country dearly. When I see that flag I think of my father and uncle in Desert Storm, my Grandfather in the Pacific in WW2, and my Great-great=great (??) grandfather fighting for the confederacy in the Civil War (I'll get to this).

    -Patriotism IS love of your country. But there are many types of patriotism. A protester at a rally, demanding their country uphold to their ideals is just as patriotic as the soldiers. Thus, I can say that I love my country and still acknowledge all the mistakes and crimes we have committed. Many people say that we are brainwashed to think that we can do no wrong. In reality, I was educated on America's wrongs every day in class. I knew fully well what we did to the Natives was genocide and that slavery was an abomination but that didn't lessen my pride because every morning we had that pledge to remind me of what we aim to be. To be an American you have to accept your country's spotty history: past and present. My ancestor fought for the Confederacy, but I am not ashamed of him because he had a belief that his rights had been trampled on by the government and he fought against it. I can say that I am a proud Southerner (who can read haha) and an American. A good many of my countrymen and I cannot stand our current government because they are perverting our constitution. We are losing rights ever so slowly every day. You may laugh at obsession with keeping our guns but it is in our Bill of Rights to keep guns. If we lose that right then whats next? Its a slippery slope and its one that I rather my country not fall down.

    -To the yuppie who made the crack about Alabamians: ##@# you. Your assurance of your superiority borders ethnocentricism. The Nazi's thought they were superior to the Jews too. You make generalizations in the same way as any racist would.

    -Sorry for the length.
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    Sorry for going OT from the original point of the thread here, but two things you said in particular struck me. I hope I don't sound aggressive, I'm genuinely interested.
    (Original post by USArmybrat)
    I know I am overly romantic about this but I was raised in the military culture and I loved this country dearly. When I see that flag I think of my father and uncle in Desert Storm, my Grandfather in the Pacific in WW2, and my Great-great=great (??) grandfather fighting for the confederacy in the Civil War
    Do you believe that military intervention is right, therefore? Do you think that what you're doing in Afghan. and Iraq is beneficial and, say, more powerful than humanitarian intervention (for example)? And how much of your belief (you did mention romanticism) do you think is shaped by the fact that you have a history of being in the military?

    (Original post by USArmybrat)
    We are losing rights ever so slowly every day. You may laugh at obsession with keeping our guns but it is in our Bill of Rights to keep guns. If we lose that right then whats next?
    Similar to above: is there any other reason that you believe that you should have the right to carry a gun, more than just that it's in the constitution? And do you think that carrying a gun is beneficial to you as an individual, and to society?

    (And, considering what you've said about the topic, how do you feel about Obama on the whole, and his healthcare reform?)
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    (Original post by Casse)
    The USA is a relatively new country compared to the UK and was made up many different ethnicities so they need this open display of patriotism to glue all the different people together. Basically to form a common identity.

    In contrast, Britain has over 2 thousand years of history, culture and heritage so we do not need any of these things. Simply the age of Britian is what keeps it together. The same for Europeans.
    I concur.

    America was originally the land of the Native American Indians but the Europeans decided to colonize America in the hopes of creating their very own ideal nation. The very diverse group of people who will then form the population of USA harbour hopes of living the life they have always wanted in the 'Land of Opportunity'. The patriotism stems from the unity amongst its people wanting to create a whole new culture and identity for themselves.
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    I dont think patriotism has much to do with overt military displays at sporting events (red arrows flying over FAcup etc). Americas patriotism has a kind of evangelical fervor to it and is also full of the same kind of meaningless cliches and demonstrably untrue statements of "fact" that American christianity seems to be so fond of. i think religion and nationalism both stem from the same cognitive evolutionary throwback
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    [QUOTE=Doodahdoo]Sorry for going OT from the original point of the thread here, but two things you said in particular struck me. I hope I don't sound aggressive, I'm genuinely interested.

    Do you believe that military intervention is right, therefore? Do you think that what you're doing in Afghan. and Iraq is beneficial and, say, more powerful than humanitarian intervention (for example)? And how much of your belief (you did mention romanticism) do you think is shaped by the fact that you have a history of being in the military?

    I think that after a certain point and especially with determined enough opposition that diplomacy fails and intervention may be necessary. This isn't to say that Bush's logic (or rather it seems lies) justified an invasion but that point is mute now as rather it was justified or not we are stuck in there now. After speaking with several of my friends after finishing their tours I think our presence has done alot more good then is credited in news sources. I used to live in Kuwait in years following the 1st Gulf war so I saw the evidence of the terrors that Saddam allowed. The man use chemical warfare on his own people. Also, Afghan has always been the target of western meddling. Even you British meddle with them during your Great Game with the Russian empire in the 19th century. The fact that we've sunk so much money and effort into rebuilding that country should speak that our intentions are not to expand some nonexistent American empire but to actually bring some sort of good out of all of this. That being said something does smell fishy about the whole affair and I think that Bush, the republicans and now Obama are slowly perverting our constitution to fit their needs.

    I would have to say that growing up in a military family shaped my views very much. Some might say brained wash but then again couldn't you say you've been brainwashed by your society to think that you are an independent thinker in a free society when in reality you're just another sheep in a flock being led to the fields? The duty and sacrifice that surrounded me everyday growing up has shaped me. When I look at the politicians I grow disgusted with their self serving ways. I actually trust our military and look up to them. Their directness and clarity are refreshing.



    Similar to above: is there any other reason that you believe that you should have the right to carry a gun, more than just that it's in the constitution? And do you think that carrying a gun is beneficial to you as an individual, and to society?

    Like I said, The Bill of Rights are freedoms that cannot be abolished by law. If we lost one the what would stop the rest of them from going too? So, even if I didn't own a gun I would still fight like hell if they tried to ban them. Gun ownership is huge here, especially in the South and midwest. But the overall, 99%, majority of those owners are normal everyday people. Not the gun toting nuts in the flannel you see on tv. If you own a weapon you have to respect the power that it is capable of. Alot of people keep them for self defense as America is a little nuts in some parts. I don't think that if we were with out our guns that our murder and crime rate would go down. America has always been a little crazy as alot of people on this site know.
    Socially, I think its beneficial for a population to be able to defend themselves. Governments won't and can't always be there. They often fail when needed the most (Katrina) so its best not to have to rely on them. Though lever action rifles will do little against a predator missile being dropped on your head.

    (And, considering what you've said about the topic, how do you feel about Obama on the whole, and his healthcare reform?)

    I'm very old school when it comes to some views aka a strict constitutionalists. I think the constitution founders got it right when they sought to limit the governments role in our lives. I am very distrustful of them and so should you. They take away rights for your security and then once this threat passes you never get those rights back. Obama has said alot of pretty words but so did Hitler. He needs to back them up.
    When it comes to health care some reforms are needed. ~12% of our GDP goes to healthcare costs. That is insanity. I think Germany's is like 5% or something like that. That being said I get the feeling that this reform bill they are trying to pass isn't the best. I have yet to see the specifics on our news. The only way you can find out is if you read through all 400+ pages of it. In addition, our debt is stupid high and China owns a large majority of that. I don't want a bill that is going to add to that. This generation of politicians seem to think that putting our debt on the back burner will make it go away. I would rather starve today then let my grandchildren suffer for our mistakes. That's how its suppose to be. /QUOTE]

    -By the way, this I too find this site very interesting. I like all the views. Much more satisfying, though not as entertaining, as reading the comments on sites like youtube.
 
 
 
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