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    (Original post by OllyH)
    Can you elaborate as to why you are?
    I will when i've finished watching the episodes of Gilmore girls i need to catch up on, oh how wisely my time is spent on a gap year :yep:

    I'll quote you when I do, as to draw your attention to my reply

    EDIT: In fact, after just reading, yours, emilyyys, and rachyyys reply, i admittedly know far to little on the matter to comment. So, I retract my comment about being for it, until i know more.
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    (Original post by emilyyy)
    See I would generally tend to agree with you; doing it for prophylactic reasons would be great - if it weren't for the fact that there is very low incidence of tail damage, even if the dog is working under close cover. Despite having worked in a countryside practice, and having assisted in the tail-docking procedure countless times (both before and since recent changes in legislation) I have never once seen a dog come in with a tail injury.
    This includes working retrievers etc, who also run under fairly close cover but have tails totally intact.
    I support the removal of dew claws far more than I do the docking of puppies tails.

    I like that you're considering the ethics behind it all - and you certainly don't deserve negative rep because your opinion has clearly been fairly well constructed, with the welfare of the pups at the forefront of your mind.
    But I'm still err-ing as to whether I agree with it or not. I think the answer is I feel it's almost necessary in a working dog - though the fact that I believe that disgusts me.

    A more interesting question to ask yourself, everyone, is if someone came in wanting you to dock a litter of puppies, would you do it?
    If you say no, what are the chances of the breeder going away and trying to do it himself, without the anaesthetic and better hygiene you can provide?

    (Oh, and Rachy, one thing I do totally disagree with is where you say it causes no pain. It causes quite a lot of pain. In dogs and in sheep. Plus it has been linked to problems later in life, including incontinence. And - though I personally think this is ridiculous- people also suggest it compromises the dog's ability to communicate. That's why it's such an ethical dilemma.)
    Maby you have never come across a case, but most working dogs have docked tails, if they didnt more dogs would come in to the vets!
    Plus most people would not take their dogs to the vet, theyd just spary antiseptic spray on it and leave it to heal themselves!
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    (Original post by x_dwin_ffeimys_x)
    We lamb outside, have around 1000 ewes, but spread over hundreds of acers, we leave the mountian ones alone coz they usually lamb themself, we just chek on them every 3 days, but we go round the yearlings, twins and X texels all day...so yeah most of it will be done on the Quad, jumping off to rugby tackle fit sheep, and numbering twins! It's nothing like indoor lambing, you don't have to dip in idodine or treat against becterial diseases coz it's not intensive. But you will get to see working sheep dogs at their best... but if you want you can come, we lamb through April

    few uncon offers from Liv...few more bristol interviews, and tahts all on the vet app side..
    lots of talk about lambing!
    and I havn't been following proply either also coz of crazzy lambing!!
    Sure Liv went better than u think

    may I ask why are people against tail dockin working dogs? Have you ever seen a dog at work? if they had long tail theyd easily catch on to wires and bushes and stuff, and get riped up....or are you also agains all kind of hunting?
    that sounds like fun!
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    (Original post by Rachhyyyy)
    right im gona have a rant now because people keep negging me!!!
    and it will be a good discussion on an issue that might come up at interview!

    it actually shocks me that people that want to be vets dont agree with docking working dogs, im guessing you dont come from country areas/ places where their are many working dogs!? i hope so!

    BUT here i am talking about working dogs, spaniels that drash through cover at 100mph, and you as vets dont want to be dealing with dogs with damaged/broken tails which DOES happen if not docked, (most dogs that are worked are docked, i have hardly ever seen a nondocked working dog but ive heard storys of those few that have really mangled up their tails and had to go through alot of pain and surgery/sometimes amputation later in life) and docking at a young age causes basically NO pain, similar to that in sheep, be funny if people dont mind it in sheep but disagree with it in dogs....
    ???
    both with sheep and dogs docking is done for a reason to protect the animal, so whys that ethically wrong???
    i personally think it would be more wrong to work a non docked dogs because of the highly increased risk of injury and as i will be selling my dogs to working homes only i will be getting them legally docked. which i think is completely ethically corect and i actually got asked about this in my bristol interview..
    I'll have to admit that I don't actually know much about working dogs, could you expand on this before I state my view ( I may not understand the other side of the argument fully)? For example, what tasks does your spaniel do that put it at risk of damaging its tail, or getting it caught up?
    My understanding is that a working dog is one that is not just a pet, but is breed specifically to carry out certain tasks such as working with livestock, carry out tracking, assistance for people with disabilities etc.
    But in many of these cases (there may be some I am not aware of), I don't see the necessity in carry out docking.

    Perhaps this is different for certain breeds which carry out other forms of 'work'. But yeah..I'll let you explain :p:
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    (Original post by Rachhyyyy)
    hm yeh emily always has a good view on everything

    golden retreivers do a completely different job to a spaniel in the working shooting field though, your labs and retreivers are usually used as picking up dogs so will go into cover to pick up birds whereas a spaniel is used for flushing birds in the beating line, ive onlyh ever seen one spaniel in the working field that is non-docked and the ownersed it often bleeds after a day working but hasnt had any serious injury yet but they would never buy a non docked spaniel again. I think teh fact you dont see injured tails on spaniels is because there is VERY VERY few that arent docked because liek u sed owners wil usually go out of their own way to get them docked, legally OR illegally!!!
    Spaniels are very different dogs to a retreiever or such like, they are mental and will run thorugh anything, pain or no pain, they have flushing in teh blood and they go thorugh the ROUGHEST of cover, my dog had an inch blackthorn in her side after a days working, they will honestly go thorugh anything!! i no ALOT of male spaniels that have damaged there private areas aswell, which shows the likelyhood of the tail being caught.

    i dont no about the procedure but i would imagine it cause ALOT less pain as a 2 day old pup than a tail amputation or repeated injuries thorughout life? ive neevr seen the docking procedure, and as a vet i would only dock tails if i new the owner (trusted client) AND i new that BOTH parents are working dogs and when advertised they are advertised as WORKING ONLY!
    I disagree completely with docking for show/ breed standard reasons, but for working spaniels I do agree with Rachel. If I become a vet, I would only, like Rachel, dock the tails of dogs that are DEFINITELY going to be working dogs. Obviously it's illegal to dock non-working dogs anyway, but if I had any doubt in my mind, I would never do it. I do believe it must hurt, but it's really the lesser of two evils because of the injuries they can (mostly likely will) suffer from if left undocked whilst working.
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    (Original post by x_dwin_ffeimys_x)
    We lamb outside, have around 1000 ewes, but spread over hundreds of acers, we leave the mountian ones alone coz they usually lamb themself, we just chek on them every 3 days, but we go round the yearlings, twins and X texels all day...so yeah most of it will be done on the Quad, jumping off to rugby tackle fit sheep, and numbering twins! It's nothing like indoor lambing, you don't have to dip in idodine or treat against becterial diseases coz it's not intensive. But you will get to see working sheep dogs at their best... but if you want you can come, we lamb through April
    (Original post by Annaconda)
    that sounds like fun!
    Now that's my kinda lambin'
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    (Original post by steph_v)
    Yeah, I rounded down my work experience too because it sounded ridiculous. I couldn't believe I'd actually spent that long doing it. It does seem strange that you've not heard yet. I take it you've got plenty of variety?
    Yup I'd have thought I was varied enough - SA, heaps of LA, dairy from a young age, zoo, PAT, lambing, calving blah blah I dunno anymore its v frustrating!!
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    (Original post by ViolinGirl)
    I'll have to admit that I don't actually know much about working dogs, could you expand on this before I state my view ( I may not understand the other side of the argument fully)? For example, what tasks does your spaniel do that put it at risk of damaging its tail, or getting it caught up?
    My understanding is that a working dog is one that is not just a pet, but is breed specifically to carry out certain tasks such as working with livestock, carry out tracking, assistance for people with disabilities etc.
    But in many of these cases (there may be some I am not aware of), I don't see the necessity in carry out docking.

    Perhaps this is different for certain breeds which carry out other forms of 'work'. But yeah..I'll let you explain :p:
    ok, im talking about spaniels here, working for a spaniel is in the shooting field, they are used to flush birds out of cover, so they work the ground, in a quartering pattern thorugh any cover you put them through, and as u can imagine the pheasents hide in the thickest of cover to try and hide, so a spaniel would work the ground going through cover i.e Brambles, ferns, moorland, gorse, blackthorn, holly bushes, hedges, low woodland and so on...
    but to be honest you peopel probably disagree with shooting in the first place and dont think spaniels should exist so im gona stop because im never gona win and im fed up of being negged for things that people dont have a frigging clue about, and if your gona be vets maybe you should find out about things before having an opiniong, this last bit wasnt aimed at you violin girl!
    hope ive kinda explained what working spaniels do, u havnt lived :p: i do understand why u didnt agree with it, other working dogs, like sheepdogs etc DONT need their tails docks
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    (Original post by zoop)
    Yup I'd have thought I was varied enough - SA, heaps of LA, dairy from a young age, zoo, PAT, lambing, calving blah blah I dunno anymore its v frustrating!!
    do you have kennels and stables?
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    ******* townies eh rach!!! negging you! pffft.

    had the first lot of jersey bulls calves go today, its criminal when you see 37 healthy animals shot and loaded onto a truck all because they have no use. such is life...
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    (Original post by tommygunsvet)
    ******* townies eh rach!!! negging you! pffft.

    had the first lot of jersey bulls calves go today, its criminal when you see 37 healthy animals shot and loaded onto a truck all because they have no use. such is life...
    shoulda called the police tbh :o:
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    (Original post by Rachhyyyy)
    and if your gona be vets maybe you should find out about things before having an opiniong
    Me? Because, fair enough if it is, admittedly i'm a towny, not that i negged you!! from the little i know, i agreed with you. Anyway, my input was uneducated, so should be ignored, like i pointed out.
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    (Original post by Annaconda)
    do you have kennels and stables?
    Loads of stables + carriage driving comp but no kennels (was told I was too young so did PAT instead). Also did wrk exp in Ed uni but still got rej from there so nadddaaa clu. N abattoir. Tbh I couldn't have actually fitted in anymore wrk exp cos I had to do paid work for as well. Meh gap year looks fun tho!
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    (Original post by Beckybob)
    Me? Because, fair enough if it is, admittedly i'm a towny, not that i negged you!! from the little i know, i agreed with you. Anyway, my input was uneducated, so should be ignored, like i pointed out.
    She's the one on the left remember that...I'm saying such useless things tonight :p:
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    (Original post by zoop)
    Loads of stables + carriage driving comp but no kennels (was told I was too young so did PAT instead). Also did wrk exp in Ed uni but still got rej from there so nadddaaa clu. N abattoir. Tbh I couldn't have actually fitted in anymore wrk exp cos I had to do paid work for as well. Meh gap year looks fun tho!
    its probably lack of kennels that let you down then.
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    We definitely need more debates in this thread :yep:
    I remember from lurking last years thread, they used to debate loadssss. Nice, controversial debates are interesting and educational.
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    (Original post by Shedlife)
    She's the one on the left remember that...I'm saying such useless things tonight :p:
    What?
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    I guess spaniels get docked more often because of the job they do (flushing in the undergrowth, similar to terriers, right?) and because they're smaller than your average gundogs? I don't know a lot about shooting so can't really comment. I know that our local bloodhound pack all have tails and none seem to every get injured, despite being in the thick for a lot of the hunt - maybe because they're taller?
    Personally, I don't get why anyone would dock purely for aesthetic purposes.
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    Back from Nottinghammm. I think I've managed to catch a cold and have a cracking headache

    I found the practical loads of fun but reckon I messed up the interview...

    Just read an email from Bristol saying that they're not able to make a final decision yet on my app and have to hold off making one until they interview more - does this effectively mean I'm on hold?
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    I'm not entirely sure on my position on hunting and shooting, my views are still under development so to speak.
    I've been brought up in a big shooting/hunting area so I've always been a natural supporter just from the way I was brought up. However, now I've started thinking more about my ethical position in relation to various activities involving animals (mainly triggered by thinking about my responsibilities as a future vet) I think my view may be starting to shift.
    For example, with fox hunting I'm shifting away from supporting proper fox hunting as personally I think drag hunting is a much more ethically sound thing to do. I've been a fox hunting supporter for years. (this is a huge debate so I won't go into any detail.)

    One of my main driving principles is that we should strive to let domesticated animals live the most natural life possible and not inhibit their natural instincts. And so the loss of a major means of communication for such a social animal is the main reason I disagree with docking even in working dogs.

    I also think negging someone just because you don't agree with them is ridiculous. Debate and disagreement is a good thing as it drives learning and progress.
 
 
 
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