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    (Original post by tommygunsvet)
    ******* townies eh rach!!! negging you! pffft.

    had the first lot of jersey bulls calves go today, its criminal when you see 37 healthy animals shot and loaded onto a truck all because they have no use. such is life...
    This. It used to happen at the dairy farm I was at last week (they have Guernseys) but recently they have started keeping on the bull calves and selling them as beef. They are actually making a small profit, more than the cost of feeding them, and the cost of paying to have them taken away as calves at least.

    Also, about tail docking, I have only been beating once a while ago (for the record I loved it) but I am pro docking the tails of working dogs. All the working spaniels I have seen have had their tails docked, and while I agree it may cause the dog some pain at the time, it is far better in the long run for the dog to not get caught in the undergrowth, which would cause a lot of pain, an unhappy dog, expensive vet bills and a dog potentially out of work for a while whilst it recovers. And I would far rather anesthetise and dock the tail myself as a vet than run the risk of it being done in non sterile conditions by someone who didn't really know what they were doing.

    On a similar note, I was unaware of this but apparently animal rights' campaigners are ver against de-horning calves too. I would have thought the benefits of this were obvious (no risk of injury later on), and the calves were again under local anesthetic when we did it, but the are still very anti this.
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    I think overall I support docking in working dogs, although some of the arguments people have given have made me consider that in more detail. I too have never seen the docking procedure, but as long as the tail who hinder the dog in its work - and I include injury which might cause it to require rest/vet trips - then I would rather the tail be removed at an earl stage than have the animal suffer due to it. The information about a link between docking and later health problems is interesting though, and certainly something to consider before the final decision is made about a dog.
    I also know very little about shooting but - as a self-confessed townie - wouldn't say I'm against it. Equally, I'm not for it, but I think if anyone cares to expand a bit on their views on it I would come at them with an open mind to decide how I feel.
    I'm totally against docking for aesthetic reasons as its essentially mindless mutilation.

    Debates ftw :yes:
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    (Original post by rach.)
    Back from Nottinghammm. I think I've managed to catch a cold and have a cracking headache

    I found the practical loads of fun but reckon I messed up the interview...

    Just read an email from Bristol saying that they're not able to make a final decision yet on my app and have to hold off making one until they interview more - does this effectively mean I'm on hold?
    Did you have an interview last week? I think that means you're on hold, join the club :p:


    Awww, my dog was so happy to see me today, I've only been away 4/5 days. Now she's scared of me because I'm shouted at the TV because Arsenal are playing appallingly!

    Woah, how did I get that rep? I had like 3 gems yesterday, haha.
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    When hawking, its bad enough keeping track of the clients and 5 Harris Hawks so generally us meer humans do the flushing!!! :p:

    To be honest my idea of heaven is hawking on horseback with a spaniel (springer!) flushing for me!
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    (Original post by Talon19921992)
    When hawking, its bad enough keeping track of the clients and 5 Harris Hawks so generally us meer humans do the flushing!!! :p:

    To be honest my idea of heaven is hawking on horseback with a spaniel (springer!) flushing for me!
    How was Nottingham?


    Spaniels :love:
    I went round someone's house yesterday and they had the most gorgeous dogs Really lovely and friendly. No idea what's in them, but they reckon there's definitely some spaniel.
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    (Original post by Rachhyyyy)
    ok, im talking about spaniels here, working for a spaniel is in the shooting field, they are used to flush birds out of cover, so they work the ground, in a quartering pattern thorugh any cover you put them through, and as u can imagine the pheasents hide in the thickest of cover to try and hide, so a spaniel would work the ground going through cover i.e Brambles, ferns, moorland, gorse, blackthorn, holly bushes, hedges, low woodland and so on...
    but to be honest you peopel probably disagree with shooting in the first place and dont think spaniels should exist so im gona stop because im never gona win and im fed up of being negged for things that people dont have a frigging clue about, and if your gona be vets maybe you should find out about things before having an opiniong, this last bit wasnt aimed at you violin girl!
    hope ive kinda explained what working spaniels do, u havnt lived :p: i do understand why u didnt agree with it, other working dogs, like sheepdogs etc DONT need their tails docks
    Ok. Thanks I shall take this into further considersation before I form my 'complete' view on the issue. I probably should do before Bristol interview :eek:
    I think it is ridiculous that people are neg repping you for this. Especially on this issue, I don't think it is one that many people understand fully, and people have a right to their opinions!
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    (Original post by steph_v)
    Did you have an interview last week? I think that means you're on hold, join the club :p:


    Awww, my dog was so happy to see me today, I've only been away 4/5 days. Now she's scared of me because I'm shouted at the TV because Arsenal are playing appallingly!

    Woah, how did I get that rep? I had like 3 gems yesterday, haha.
    Yeh I did haha. Well, it's not a rejection yet I guess...
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    (Original post by Shedlife)
    WOW.

    Loved my Liverpool interview; felt like I gave it a good shot and it was really quiet fun :rolleyes:

    Was anybody else at 10am this morning? I more or less remember every ones faces. The guy on the 2nd to last station didn't want me to leave

    AWESOME.
    Glad to hear someone else enjoyed it! I thought it was a really fun hour!?

    (Original post by Rachhyyyy)
    hm yeh emily always has a good view on everything

    golden retreivers do a completely different job to a spaniel in the working shooting field though, your labs and retreivers are usually used as picking up dogs so will go into cover to pick up birds whereas a spaniel is used for flushing birds in the beating line, ive onlyh ever seen one spaniel in the working field that is non-docked and the ownersed it often bleeds after a day working but hasnt had any serious injury yet but they would never buy a non docked spaniel again. I think teh fact you dont see injured tails on spaniels is because there is VERY VERY few that arent docked because liek u sed owners wil usually go out of their own way to get them docked, legally OR illegally!!!
    Spaniels are very different dogs to a retreiever or such like, they are mental and will run thorugh anything, pain or no pain, they have flushing in teh blood and they go thorugh the ROUGHEST of cover, my dog had an inch blackthorn in her side after a days working, they will honestly go thorugh anything!! i no ALOT of male spaniels that have damaged there private areas aswell, which shows the likelyhood of the tail being caught.

    i dont no about the procedure but i would imagine it cause ALOT less pain as a 2 day old pup than a tail amputation or repeated injuries thorughout life? ive neevr seen the docking procedure, and as a vet i would only dock tails if i new the owner (trusted client) AND i new that BOTH parents are working dogs and when advertised they are advertised as WORKING ONLY!
    (Original post by emilyyy)
    See I would generally tend to agree with you; doing it for prophylactic reasons would be great - if it weren't for the fact that there is very low incidence of tail damage, even if the dog is working under close cover. Despite having worked in a countryside practice, and having assisted in the tail-docking procedure countless times (both before and since recent changes in legislation) I have never once seen a dog come in with a tail injury.
    This includes working retrievers etc, who also run under fairly close cover but have tails totally intact.
    I support the removal of dew claws far more than I do the docking of puppies tails.

    I like that you're considering the ethics behind it all - and you certainly don't deserve negative rep because your opinion has clearly been fairly well constructed, with the welfare of the pups at the forefront of your mind.
    But I'm still err-ing as to whether I agree with it or not. I think the answer is I feel it's almost necessary in a working dog - though the fact that I believe that disgusts me.

    A more interesting question to ask yourself, everyone, is if someone came in wanting you to dock a litter of puppies, would you do it?
    If you say no, what are the chances of the breeder going away and trying to do it himself, without the anaesthetic and better hygiene you can provide?

    (Oh, and Rachy, one thing I do totally disagree with is where you say it causes no pain. It causes quite a lot of pain. In dogs and in sheep. Plus it has been linked to problems later in life, including incontinence. And - though I personally think this is ridiculous- people also suggest it compromises the dog's ability to communicate. That's why it's such an ethical dilemma.)
    I'm an ignorant townie, so thanks guys for giving some interesting opinions on this topic!
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    interesting discussion

    personally my concern is how hard it is to 'monitor' or 'control' tail docking of working dogs. I don't like seeing dogs with their tails docked as a normal thing, several reasons that have already been mentioned (can cause problems later in life, role in communication, uneeded pain etc etc). But, I agree that in (some) working dogs it is better to have them docked at a young age, sort of weighing up pros and cons and in the case of some dogs tail docking seems to be a better option that not. But...some peoples perception of certain breeds expects them to be docked, so people want them docked regardless of if they will be working or not. How can a vet be expected to know that? Should a vet dock it anyway, even if they don't think it will be working to save the owner doing it at home themselves? What I mean is because tail docking is allowed in working dogs it is hard to determine if a certain group of puppies should or shouldn't be docked. Whereas obviously a carte blance ban would stop any grey areas...but that could/would result in some dogs with damaged tails and so on later in life. Not a straight forward topic really for me...not come to a definate pov.

    Funnily enough I was asked about this at my Nottm interview last year. I wasn't over happy with the way the question went. From what I remember they asked me about my pov on docking and then asked me what I would do as a vet if I was asked to dock a dogs tail. I talked about ascertaining if it was to be a working dog (what breed it was, talking to the owner and so on). Then they asked me about what I would do if I wasn't convinced that it would be a working dog, but the owner was insistent. I wasn't over sure at this point, but started to say how I would prefer to consider docking the tail in a safe, hygenic environment as humanely as possible, rather than sending the owner away and them chopping the tail themselves, not being willing to come back with later problems etc. At which point I felt the interviewer got a bit funny with me and told me that I would probably be struck off for that....I think that is the question that messed my interview up! But I still don't feel I was wrong in what I said.
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    :ninjagirl: nah beccky i wasnt aiming it at you unless you negged me :ninjagirl: lol :p:

    i like these discussions, they are good because they are interview topics and its always interesting to hear peoples views just annoys me when people neg about something rather than voicing an opinion and discussing it with others
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    aw thanks everyone my rep has gone up even more than it was before i was negged :woo:
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    (Original post by OllyH)
    For example, with fox hunting I'm shifting away from supporting proper fox hunting as personally I think drag hunting is a much more ethically sound thing to do. I've been a fox hunting supporter for years. (this is a huge debate so I won't go into any detail.)
    To me, drag hunting is far more fun anyway as there's less waiting around. It's probably safer as well as all routes are planned out beforehand, so the risk to horses, riders and hounds is lower, whereas with foxhunting (or any type of hunting following a wild animal) you may end up heading over unsuitable land, barbed wire, towards roads etc.
    I'm not 'anti-hunting' as such, and can appreciate that others may view it as part of british history and a way of life, but if foxhunting got brought back in I probably still wouldn't go due to the ethical reasons, and the reasons above.
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    (Original post by Rachhyyyy)
    aw thanks everyone my rep has gone up even more than it was before i was negged :woo:
    im so gonna neg you now to bring it back down to where it was :p:

    RVC interview tomorrow morning! gutted no one from here is going! gonna suck.

    Oh **** forgot to say!! LIVERPOOL INTERVIIIWWW!! Full House
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    Very interesting convo about tail docking, i have to admit i don't know much about working dogs but I can see the point of tail docking to avoid injury.
    I saw a case at a vets where a lab had been chasing the lawn mower around and has managed to get its tail caught in the blade. I was at the vets for a week an saw the same lab 5 times because it wouldn't leave its tail alone. I know dogs often chew on wounds but it just caused a lot more pain and expense to the owner as the tail needed operating on again in order to save some of it. So i guess if a working dog gets injured its painful for the dog and expensive for the farmer to get sorted out, even though it could easily have been prevented.
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    (Original post by tommygunsvet)
    im so gonna neg you now to bring it back down to where it was :p:

    RVC interview tomorrow morning! gutted no one from here is going! gonna suck.

    Oh **** forgot to say!! LIVERPOOL INTERVIIIWWW!! Full House
    Well done!!!

    Didn't you say for you it would be a choice between Liverpool and Glasgow?
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    (Original post by tommygunsvet)
    im so gonna neg you now to bring it back down to where it was :p:

    RVC interview tomorrow morning! gutted no one from here is going! gonna suck.

    Oh **** forgot to say!! LIVERPOOL INTERVIIIWWW!! Full House
    Well done, what date?
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    To be honest I don't feel I know enough about the roles of working dogs in shooting to be able to have an educated opinion on whether working dogs should or shouldn't be docked. But it's been really useful to be able to read everyone's opinions from different points of view

    And well done on the full house of interviews!!!
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    How on earth have you people who had interviews in December coped with the waiting?... :p: :p: :p:
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    (Original post by Talon19921992)
    How on earth have you people who had interviews in December coped with the waiting?... :p: :p: :p:
    Good things come to those who wait
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    (Original post by samz56)
    Good things come to those who wait
    We hope! :p:
 
 
 
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