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    (Original post by kookabura)
    I wasn't over sure at this point, but started to say how I would prefer to consider docking the tail in a safe, hygenic environment as humanely as possible, rather than sending the owner away and them chopping the tail themselves, not being willing to come back with later problems etc. At which point I felt the interviewer got a bit funny with me and told me that I would probably be struck off for that....I think that is the question that messed my interview up! But I still don't feel I was wrong in what I said.
    This is a hard situation to be in, the owner is essentially blackmailing you.
    I think one approach would be to educate the owner as much as possible. Use your position in authority to state the facts and what you believe and likewise mention the legal repercussions if the owner does do it them self. Also a bit of guilt induction would probably be effective, so make sure they know that it will be a painful and pointless procedure.
    I think you have a responsibility to yourself/career remain within the law.
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    Could anyone tell me more about shooting?
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    (Original post by Talon19921992)
    We hope! :p:
    They definitely do :p:
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    (Original post by x_dwin_ffeimys_x)
    Maby you have never come across a case, but most working dogs have docked tails, if they didnt more dogs would come in to the vets!
    Plus most people would not take their dogs to the vet, theyd just spary antiseptic spray on it and leave it to heal themselves!
    Your first point is true - but that's why I gave the example of retrievers etc. I know, as Rachy says, that the work they do is different, but (although less frequently) retrievers do also run under close cover, with their tails undocked, and I've seen no injuries in them.

    I think the major problem is the fact that we're so embedded in tradition. Docking used to be customary in many breeds of dog. It continued for a long time - because it was the tradition. Thankfully, as we all know, docking for the sake of aesthetics has now been banned.
    Then we come to working dogs... The thing is, because we've docked for so long, we now have very few undocked working dogs to either prove or disprove the fact that tail injuries are common... so are we allowing docking to continue for prophylactic reasons simply on the basis of hand-me-down anecdotes or is it that undocked tails are truly at risk? No-one can say for sure, because the statistics just aren't there.

    It will be interesting to see whether incidences of tail injury in working dogs in Scotland increases or remains static following their new legislation (blanket ban).

    At the moment I feel obliged to support tail docking as, so far, from the research I've done it seems avoiding the injuries that could be sustained outweigh the negatives of docking. However the minute statistics are released (and I hope that such statistics are released) that prove to me that undocked tails really aren't that much more at risk my views will change completely.

    It's something I will always feel uncomfortable about supporting/doing.

    (Two ways to carry out the procedure as far as I know: Banding (like in sheep) and then just simply cutting off the tail with surgical scissors, pretty much. I've not seen banding, but I believe it's done without any form of anaesthesia. Cutting the tail is done, in my experience, using a local anaesthetic. But this merely eases the pain a little, from what I've seen, doesn't make the procedure painless. Puppies are very vocal when it's done, and it's all very unceremonius. Puppy picked up, bottom in the air, crunch of the scissors across its tail, and popped back in the basket. Lots of whimpering, though admittedly this does die down by the time they go home (immediately after the whole litter's been docked). No analgesia prescribed. No suturing. Not sure if this is how it's carried out everywhere, but it's what I've seen performed many a time.)
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    seeing as we'r discussing ethical issues.. what is your opinion about the use of complimentary therapies like acupuncture, hydrotherapy and chiropractic therapy + batch flower remedies for animals. Such a contentious issue these days as there is growing distrust amongst ppl. in modern medicine, people are eager to try 'natural' alternatives for themselves and their animals.

    Personally I think complimentary therapies should have their place in veterinary care. Not least because often they help to rehabilitate after surg. without many of the side effects associated with common pharmacalogical agents like steroidal anti-inflams. They have been proven be safe and to help treat pain and are often cheap services to offer, i.e no expensive drugs/machinery...

    obviously there is a whole other side to the argument so lets discuss people!! interview practiceeeeee
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    (Original post by Talon19921992)
    How on earth have you people who had interviews in December coped with the waiting?... :p: :p: :p:
    I literally barely remember RVC.
    When they get back to me,whatever it is, I'm gonna be all confused. I'll open it and just go "...who are these people?" :p:
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    (Original post by Dr. 2 be)
    seeing as we'r discussing ethical issues.. what is your opinion about the use of complimentary therapies like acupuncture, hydrotherapy and chiropractic therapy + batch flower remedies for animals. Such a contentious issue these days as there is growing distrust amongst ppl. in modern medicine, people are eager to try 'natural' alternatives for themselves and their animals.

    Personally I think complimentary therapies should have their place in veterinary care. Not least because often they help to rehabilitate after surg. without many of the side effects associated with common pharmacalogical agents like steroidal anti-inflams. They have been proven be safe and to help treat pain and are often cheap services to offer, i.e no expensive drugs/machinery...

    obviously there is a whole other side to the argument so lets discuss people!! interview practiceeeeee
    Fine, to a point.

    Name of the game is that these things remain "complimentary".
    If it's an infection that can quickly and efficiently treated with antibiotics I reckon complimentary therapies should be left out of the loop. No point extending the animals pain whilst waiting for some herbs to work, when you know that some synulox would have sorted it out days before.

    However in cases of rehabilitation following surgery, definitely worth taking an interest in. No-one can argue the benefits of physiotherapy etc. Again, though, if the animal's in severe pain and natural remedies just aren't managing it, chemical analgesia should be brought in.

    Just so long as the animal's welfare remains number one priority - and you're not dragging out any discomfort/stress just for the hell of being seen as "more natural".
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    (Original post by emilyyy)
    At the moment I feel obliged to support tail docking as, so far, from the research I've done it seems avoiding the injuries that could be sustained outweigh the negatives of docking. However the minute statistics are released (and I hope that such statistics are released) that prove to me that undocked tails really aren't that much more at risk my views will change completely.

    It's something I will always feel uncomfortable about supporting/doing.

    I was just reading a review article on tail docking from the Australian veterinary journal (link for those of you who have Athens access: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/j...20744585/issue) which is stating that there is very litte/no scientific/empirical evidence that tail docking does or doesn't prevent tail damage or how prevalent it is.
    Personally I think procedures shouldn't be carried out until there is evidence for doing them. For example you would never start treatment with a new drug before clinical trials in the hope that it theoretically could work. The reason tail docking is carried out is due to the cultural aspect.
    This review article had a fair bit of information about conditions caused by the tail docking procedure which is something I hadn't thought of.
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    (Original post by Talon19921992)
    How on earth have you people who had interviews in December coped with the waiting?... :p: :p: :p:
    its horrible waiting, especially if (like mine) it went badly and you really think your just waiting for a rejection in march
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    (Original post by emilyyy)
    Fine, to a point.

    Name of the game is that these things remain "complimentary".
    If it's an infection that can quickly and efficiently treated with antibiotics I reckon complimentary therapies should be left out of the loop. No point extending the animals pain whilst waiting for some herbs to work, when you know that some synulox would have sorted it out days before.

    However in cases of rehabilitation following surgery, definitely worth taking an interest in. No-one can argue the benefits of physiotherapy etc. Again, though, if the animal's in severe pain and natural remedies just aren't managing it, chemical analgesia should be brought in.

    Just so long as the animal's welfare remains number one priority - and you're not dragging out any discomfort/stress just for the hell of being seen as "more natural".
    Yer I agree, I was talking to my vet about this and he was saying that their annual code of conduct the RCVS has recently enforced that all vets in the country are obligated to 'increase transparency in treatment options' in consults - which according to him is causing much dispute among fellow vets who think many of the complimentary therapies ppl ask about are a waste of money- have not been proven to work in controlled scientific experiments and its a market that is extremely difficult to regulate especially with the internet.
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    (Original post by Dr. 2 be)
    seeing as we'r discussing ethical issues.. what is your opinion about the use of complimentary therapies like acupuncture, hydrotherapy and chiropractic therapy + batch flower remedies for animals. Such a contentious issue these days as there is growing distrust amongst ppl. in modern medicine, people are eager to try 'natural' alternatives for themselves and their animals.

    Personally I think complimentary therapies should have their place in veterinary care. Not least because often they help to rehabilitate after surg. without many of the side effects associated with common pharmacalogical agents like steroidal anti-inflams. They have been proven be safe and to help treat pain and are often cheap services to offer, i.e no expensive drugs/machinery...

    obviously there is a whole other side to the argument so lets discuss people!! interview practiceeeeee
    Do you actually have any evidence for this claim? Especially in respect to acupuncture and chiropractic I believe there is a rather large amount suggesting otherwise that they are no more effective than placebo. The majority of evidence regarding these is in humans, I'll point you in the direction of the Cochrane collaboration (http://www.cochrane.org/) who systematically review (ie collate and interpret large amounts of research in a non-subjective manner) many treatments.
    I don't think you can argue for or against complementary treatments on a wide scale, you have to concentrate on one type of treatment at the time since they're all different things.
    The main issue here is the role of evidence based medicine, which is and hopefully will become more so essential (and correctly implemented) in veterinary practice.
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    (Original post by oaktrees)
    This. It used to happen at the dairy farm I was at last week (they have Guernseys) but recently they have started keeping on the bull calves and selling them as beef. They are actually making a small profit, more than the cost of feeding them, and the cost of paying to have them taken away as calves at least.

    Also, about tail docking, I have only been beating once a while ago (for the record I loved it) but I am pro docking the tails of working dogs. All the working spaniels I have seen have had their tails docked, and while I agree it may cause the dog some pain at the time, it is far better in the long run for the dog to not get caught in the undergrowth, which would cause a lot of pain, an unhappy dog, expensive vet bills and a dog potentially out of work for a while whilst it recovers. And I would far rather anesthetise and dock the tail myself as a vet than run the risk of it being done in non sterile conditions by someone who didn't really know what they were doing.

    On a similar note, I was unaware of this but apparently animal rights' campaigners are ver against de-horning calves too. I would have thought the benefits of this were obvious (no risk of injury later on), and the calves were again under local anesthetic when we did it, but the are still very anti this.
    I noticed that no-one else picked up on this. It's more practice for those of you with interviews (and the rest of us, actually) to bring up as many ethical problems as possible.
    Do you mean cauterisation? Or, dehorning in older animals? Cos these two procedures should be treated separately when discussing them.
    So what are people's views on either of these procedures?
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    I spent about 2 hrs reseaching docking. The previous discusion has got me hooked on it, I really want to find out where I stand :p:

    I would just like to have some views on the use of working dogs (still don't understand it fully) Why is it justifiable to use working dogs? Is shooting/hunting necessary?
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    (Original post by OllyH)
    Do you actually have any evidence for this claim? Especially in respect to acupuncture and chiropractic I believe there is a rather large amount suggesting otherwise that they are no more effective than placebo. The majority of evidence regarding these is in humans, I'll point you in the direction of the Cochrane collaboration (http://www.cochrane.org/) who systematically review (ie collate and interpret large amounts of research in a non-subjective manner) many treatments.
    I don't think you can argue for or against complementary treatments on a wide scale, you have to concentrate on one type of treatment at the time since they're all different things.
    The main issue here is the role of evidence based medicine, which is and hopefully will become more so essential (and correctly implemented) in veterinary practice.

    Yes you are correct in that it is difficult to measure the effectiveness of these holistic techniques- but it cant possibly be the placebo effect in animals because unlike humans they do not have a concious understanding of the purpous of the therapy so cannot be cognitively influenced by its proceedings.

    The lady who runs the kennels i leave my dog at told me about a really interesting case- she used to look after a dog who had serious problems with anxiousness and nerves.. he would never leave the indoor enclosure and refused to interact with the other dogs. The dog's owner agreed to let her give his dog some batch flower therapy and the next day the dog was a completely different dog! socialising- no nervousness no problems.. ! now obviously this is a story i was told and not a pier reviwed article from the european journal of veterinary medicine but it does make you think!!

    There is empirical evidence that hydrotherapy and acupuncture help to decrease pain associated with for example, chronic joint conditions such as arthritus - increasing the range of motion of the joint, reducing swelling + stimulate muscle hypertrophy...

    but as you say, you have to deal with each therapy individually- as they are all so different
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    (Original post by Dr. 2 be)
    Yes you are correct in that it is difficult to measure the effectiveness of these holistic techniques- but it cant possibly be the placebo effect in animals because unlike humans they do not have a concious understanding of the purpous of the therapy so cannot be cognitively influenced by its proceedings.

    The lady who runs the kennels i leave my dog at told me about a really interesting case- she used to look after a dog who had serious problems with anxiousness and nerves.. he would never leave the indoor enclosure and refused to interact with the other dogs. The dog's owner agreed to let her give his dog some batch flower therapy and the next day the dog was a completely different dog! socialising- no nervousness no problems.. ! now obviously this is a story i was told and not a pier reviwed article from the european journal of veterinary medicine but it does make you think!!

    There is empirical evidence that hydrotherapy and acupuncture help to decrease pain associated with for example, chronic joint conditions such as arthritus - increasing the range of motion of the joint, reducing swelling + stimulate muscle hypertrophy...

    but as you say, you have to deal with each therapy individually- as they are all so different
    Good point, I should have elaborated on that a bit further, I was referring to the human placebo effect above since I was discussing human trials. In animals the placebo effect can happen by proxy, so the owner sees a treatment and expects the animal to look better and so reports that the animal is improving.

    Also regarding the anecdotal evidence about the kennel owner. I would say anecdotal evidence ranks probably the lowest in usefulness, there is no way of telling what caused the reduction of social anxiety. How do you know if it is the treatment that caused that or something else? There is no control of any sort. So while it can be very persuasive to listen to accounts like this, since it'll often be worded emphatically and dramatically, it's mostly useless. (Though not totally, as anecdotal evidence still holds a small value often as the starting point for a further investigation.)
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    (Original post by Dr. 2 be)
    seeing as we'r discussing ethical issues.. what is your opinion about the use of complimentary therapies like acupuncture, hydrotherapy and chiropractic therapy + batch flower remedies for animals. Such a contentious issue these days as there is growing distrust amongst ppl. in modern medicine, people are eager to try 'natural' alternatives for themselves and their animals.
    I'm currently trying magnetic boots on my arthritic horse - don't know if they actually work (or if they do, it may just be because they're keeping his joints warmer) but they can't do any harm.
    One thing that worries me about herbal remedies is that some people see the word 'herbal' and instantly think that it is therefore harmless, and sometimes (not often) the side effects can be worse than manufactured medicines. I have used Bach's Rescue Remedy on a horse that was always quite edgy after travelling, and it seemed to work, but again, it could have been that I was expecting her to be calmer and therefore was more relaxed myself?
    With chiropractors and physiotherapists, I think that it is important for the two to work together and in a league with the vet. Complementary medicine has it's place and may well be very effective - but it shouldn't be viewed as a substitute
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    (Original post by .captainsarah)
    I'm currently trying magnetic boots on my arthritic horse - don't know if they actually work (or if they do, it may just be because they're keeping his joints warmer) but they can't do any harm.
    One thing that worries me about herbal remedies is that some people see the word 'herbal' and instantly think that it is therefore harmless, and sometimes (not often) the side effects can be worse than manufactured medicines. I have used Bach's Rescue Remedy on a horse that was always quite edgy after travelling, and it seemed to work, but again, it could have been that I was expecting her to be calmer and therefore was more relaxed myself?
    With chiropractors and physiotherapists, I think that it is important for the two to work together and in a league with the vet. Complementary medicine has it's place and may well be very effective - but it shouldn't be viewed as a substitute
    Yer i couldnt agree more

    btw i use Rescue Remedy be4 exams (and ginko biloba - for memory).. really not sure if they help.. but as u say unlikely to do any harm

    and yer.. its frustrating when ppl. think just because something is 'natural' it is safe.. take tobacco- natural but carcinogenic, cocaine, natural but extremely dangerous too!
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    btw where did my signature go??
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    First off good point Emily....if like you say statistics show that there is no increase in tail injury due to not docking, I would also not be 'for' it! But yeah when they do come out they will be interesting!

    (Original post by karate_kat)
    I noticed that no-one else picked up on this. It's more practice for those of you with interviews (and the rest of us, actually) to bring up as many ethical problems as possible.
    Do you mean cauterisation? Or, dehorning in older animals? Cos these two procedures should be treated separately when discussing them.
    So what are people's views on either of these procedures?
    cauterisation...so I take it thats de horning when they are calves?
    We use gas on our calves, and I am pro...
    when you feed cows with either sailage/cakes, you always have the dominant cow, then the 2nd, 3rd, and then the really shy one that gets butted by everyone. If you hadn't de horned them as calves I can not imagine the injurys that would be caused! In the wild, cows are not put in sheds therefore not in a intensive enviroment...but since we do farm them indoor for almost 6 months, de-horning is vital!
    It also lessen the risk of injury to our selves, cows especially belted galloways and limousines can be quite mental, ours anyway, and my dad was attacked by a cow just after she was calved, it was pure luck my older brother was there close by! if that cow had horns, my dad could easily not be here today!
    But as I have posted age ago, we breed AngusX now, so 90% of our calves do not need de-horning!
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    (Original post by Dr. 2 be)
    Yes you are correct in that it is difficult to measure the effectiveness of these holistic techniques- but it cant possibly be the placebo effect in animals because unlike humans they do not have a concious understanding of the purpous of the therapy so cannot be cognitively influenced by its proceedings....
    (Original post by OllyH)
    -
    It could be plausible that animals can be indirectly affected by the placebo effect of these treatments. Owners may start acting in a more positive way towards the animal and give it more happy "positive vibes" and also treat it differently while its undergoing its holistic treatment. Which may improve the condition of the animal or appear to improve the condition of the animal in the eyes of the owner.
 
 
 
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