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    To be honest next month seems smooth sailing for you guys, you better make the best of it since Man u and Chelsea will have moderately hard games.
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    Really? We have Wolves away, Fulham at home, Liverpool at home and Bolton away. We should be taking twelve points from them or be feeling disappointed. Fulham and Liverpool are decent sides but our home record is astonishing over the past three seasons.
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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    It's called "playing to win". It's Arsenal's biggest downfall.
    I don't understand. You're saying we don't play to win? Also just hacking the other team to pieces isn't playing football. I don't even know why managers are still sending their teams out to rough us up, this season we haven't been dropping points to these teams. I suppose the only thing we can do now is not dwell on this and hopefully the players will actually use this incident to help inspire them and make them even more determined to win the title.
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    (Original post by Ar5enal Fan)
    I don't understand. You're saying we don't play to win? Also just hacking the other team to pieces isn't playing football. I don't even know why managers are still sending their teams out to rough us up, this season we haven't been dropping points to these teams. I suppose the only thing we can do now is not dwell on this and hopefully the players will actually use this incident to help inspire them and make them even more determined to win the title.
    Winning isn't your absolute number one priority, no. It's a strange thing to say but it's ultimately very true. Wenger chooses to put his principles ahead of winning i.e. he chooses to refuse to budge from playing with a particular philosophy. Of course, once you're on the field you're doing your upmost to win and everything Wenger does is designed to win games, that is of course from straying from his principles.
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    (Original post by Ar5enal Fan)
    I don't understand. You're saying we don't play to win? Also just hacking the other team to pieces isn't playing football. I don't even know why managers are still sending their teams out to rough us up, this season we haven't been dropping points to these teams. I suppose the only thing we can do now is not dwell on this and hopefully the players will actually use this incident to help inspire them and make them even more determined to win the title.
    when a team has the collective first touch of a rapist its a bit hard not to start roughing up arsenal or else arsenal start dancing rings around them
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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    Winning isn't your absolute number one priority, no. It's a strange thing to say but it's ultimately very true. Wenger chooses to put his principles ahead of winning i.e. he chooses to refuse to budge from playing with a particular philosophy. Of course, once you're on the field you're doing your upmost to win and everything Wenger does is designed to win games, that is of course from straying from his principles.
    No, it's a strange thing to say because it makes no sense. Wenger has absolute faith in his style of football and will not change because he firmly believes it is a winning philosophy. If he ever thought he was making the club go backwards and we'd never win anything because of his style I'm pretty sure he wouldn't continue. If you're trying to imply that just because we don't go round kicking the opposition back when things are going badly means that we aren't playing to win then you're very wrong.
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    (Original post by JK_91)
    Just because you can't use superior passing, movement and skill it doesn't mean you have to resort to violence, as much as I dislike it when teams park the bus I have no problem with the principle because its within the rules and giving them the best chance of a result.
    But so is being physical and/or violent provided it is within the laws of the game.
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    (Original post by Jim-ie)
    when a team has the collective first touch of a rapist its a bit hard not to start roughing up arsenal or else arsenal start dancing rings around them
    But if you look at the lower table opposition that have actually taken points off us this season, such as West Ham, Sunderland and Burnley, they might not have the most technically gifted set of players but they didn't go round fouling us and playing so cynically. The teams that have played in such a pathetic, cynical manner, such as Bolton, Stoke and Hull we haven't dropped any points against. I don't think it's acceptable that managers just instruct their players to be overly physical and I'm glad to see that it doesn't work, even if it does lead to incidents like what happened yesterday. 3 players now suffering horrible injuries for us in the space of just a few years, it's no coincidence and it's not acceptable.
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    (Original post by Ar5enal Fan)
    No, it's a strange thing to say because it makes no sense. Wenger has absolute faith in his style of football and will not change because he firmly believes it is a winning philosophy. If he ever thought he was making the club go backwards and we'd never win anything because of his style I'm pretty sure he wouldn't continue. If you're trying to imply that just because we don't go round kicking the opposition back when things are going badly means that we aren't playing to win then you're very wrong.
    Read this and you'll see what I mean: http://objectivism101.com/Glossary/I...agmatism.shtml

    Wenger is an idealist: Ferguson (or Pulis, or Allardyce, or O’Neill, or McCarthy) is a pragmatist. Wenger simply refuses to stray from what he sees as the "right" (as in moral) way to do something. Why do you think he throws insults such as "anti-football" about? It's simply because it contrasts with his vision of the beautiful game.
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    (Original post by JK_91)
    How can something be within the laws of the game if it is violent?
    Whether something is violent or not is subjective.

    (Original post by JK_91)
    Being physical within the laws of the game is perfectly acceptable so long as there is never the danger that the physically doesn't spill over into acts which do break the laws, when these laws are broken the offenders should be punished so as to prevent further offences. Instead we have a woeful standard of refereeing whereby managers can send out their teams knowing that their players can break the laws and go unpunished, and so, when a team of perceived lesser quality faces strong opposition they often do. The lack of punishment from referees only encourages the recklessness which inevitably leads to the kind of injuries that we constantly sustain.
    Here we go again. Boo hoo hoo. Poor old Arsenal. The world is against them. Referees are terrible. Everyone must play the Arsenal way and not be too physical.
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    If the Ryan Shawcross on TSR is indeed the Ryan Shawcross irl (there's no reason to believe that he isn't), you can't say that he didn't have it coming to him when he has "Crunching tackles getting stuck in n arguin with officials" in his "interests" section...
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    (Original post by Ar5enal Fan)
    But if you look at the lower table opposition that have actually taken points off us this season, such as West Ham, Sunderland and Burnley, they might not have the most technically gifted set of players but they didn't go round fouling us and playing so cynically. The teams that have played in such a pathetic, cynical manner, such as Bolton, Stoke and Hull we haven't dropped any points against. I don't think it's acceptable that managers just instruct their players to be overly physical and I'm glad to see that it doesn't work, even if it does lead to incidents like what happened yesterday. 3 players now suffering horrible injuries for us in the space of just a few years, it's no coincidence and it's not acceptable.
    I dont disagree with that, but I wouldnt rule out hard hitting tactics if I were the manager; thats just how the Stoke team is built to compete. Head balls, hit it long, get throw-ins, knock opposition on their arse whenever possible. Not pretty but works well.
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    (Original post by JK_91)
    Violent conduct is a straight red so if something is perceived to be violent the offender should be sent off, physicality isn't violence and I accept that but there are teams and players, I'm not saying Shawcross today, but there are those that play with the intention of hurting or injuring our players and that is wholly unacceptable.
    You'd have to send a heck of a lot of players of for the "intention of hurting" in any football match. It's good defending to leave your mark early on in the game, especially if the opposing player is physically weak, mentally weak or cowardly (not brave). That's part of any contact sport's 101.

    I'm not talking about a player "trying to do someone", trying to main someone, like Keane on Haaland for instance. That's a different kettle of fish of course.
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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    Read this and you'll see what I mean: http://objectivism101.com/Glossary/I...agmatism.shtml

    Wenger is an idealist: Ferguson (or Pulis, or Allardyce, or O’Neill, or McCarthy) is a pragmatist. Wenger simply refuses to stray from what he sees as the "right" (as in moral) way to do something. Why do you think he throws insults such as "anti-football" about? It's simply because it contrasts with his vision of the beautiful game.
    I understand and agree with that, Wenger is an idealist but he isn't stupid. Winning is his number 1 aim and preferably to win with immense grace and style. But this doesn't mean he'll do it to the detriment of the team. He'll play taller players for example in games against teams with a physical presence, and withdraw attackers if we have a slender lead late on. In the 97/98 season when we won the league we had a lot of scrappy games and 1-0 wins and I think the main difference is just in personnel. Wenger doesn't sign people that don't have good technical ability, even defenders, because he believes that a technically gifted team should be successful, and it has been in the past. I don't think Wenger cares if we have to scrap for a win, as long as we win and though he is an idealist he has full faith that his ideals will get the team the win.
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    (Original post by Ar5enal Fan)
    I understand and agree with that, Wenger is an idealist but he isn't stupid. Winning is his number 1 aim and preferably to win with immense grace and style. But this doesn't mean he'll do it to the detriment of the team. He'll play taller players for example in games against teams with a physical presence, and withdraw attackers if we have a slender lead late on. In the 97/98 season when we won the league we had a lot of scrappy games and 1-0 wins and I think the main difference is just in personnel. Wenger doesn't sign people that don't have good technical ability, even defenders, because he believes that a technically gifted team should be successful, and it has been in the past. I don't think Wenger cares if we have to scrap for a win, as long as we win and though he is an idealist he has full faith that his ideals will get the team the win.
    Do you not think he has become more of an idealist thought as time has passed, and to his detriment I might add? When you were winning titles he wasn't anywhere near as staunch to his principles and Arsenal were one of the more physical sides in the league.

    Fergie used to be more of an idealist than he is now, especially in his early years but he certainly isn't anymore. He's gone in the other way in that respect.
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    (Original post by JK_91)
    That's basically condoning fouls which is just ridiculous.
    It's no different to taking a good yellow card for the team when you commit a foul with no chance of winning the ball just to stop an opponent's counter-attack. At the end of the day commiting a foul in football is allowed in the sense that not everything is a straight red.

    (Original post by JK_91)
    However, leaving you're mark on a player when you have no intention of going in for the ball is in no way acceptable and I'm amazed you'd condone it tbh, it is exactly that attitude that leaves players with their careers on the line.
    Like I said there's a gulf between Keane/Haaland and just roughing someone up - what Ricardo Carvalho has built his game upon. In one you're looking to put someone on the shelf and on the other you're just looking to let them know you're there.
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    (Original post by Jim-ie)
    I dont disagree with that, but I wouldnt rule out hard hitting tactics if I were the manager; thats just how the Stoke team is built to compete. Head balls, hit it long, get throw-ins, knock opposition on their arse whenever possible. Not pretty but works well.
    Yeah you're right in that regard, and while I do truly despise Stoke and such teams, they're just exploiting an incompetence in the standard of refereeing. So many times we see our players getting kicked off the ball or being tackled with excessive force, yet the referee does nothing. We don't want the game to be continously stopping, but the referees need to impose some sort of authority and ensure that tackles like this stop happening. There's a difference being physical and being reckless and because teams get away with being reckless so often, and sometimes even pick up points against us as a result, it means it will just continue :sigh:
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    This Stoke side I don't find to be all too rough, actually. I think they're underrated and as a team and given some others I could choose compare pretty favourably.

    The vague nature of "the Arsenal don't like it up 'em" mentality is a risk however. This means it's confession time for me - I used to coach a fairly young side; they were very disjointed and in a right mess. They were also physically quite weak compared to the others simply as they were slightly on the younger side, and didn't quite know how to deal with bigger players who they perceived as rough than they were. Essentially I tricked them. I started encouraging them to focus on tempo in training sessions and look at ways of making them angry. Within a couple of months they were what I can only call a ******* filthy bunch of *******s, still significantly younger and smaller than most, but within the following year won our major tournament through sheer will and aggression. To begin with they were frightened of what they perceived - by goading them and giving them ways of defending one another, I managed to trick both them and the opposition into inverting that perception. All of a sudden, the big kids were frightened of the small ones, as they were "so determined." The impression of high tempo combined with aggression can make up for any number of technical deficiencies if you execute it carefully enough.

    Anyway, how does that tie in here? Well, I very quickly realised what I was doing was gearing them toward success in the short term on a footing that was decidedly shaky with regards to their long term development. After that it became a moral matter. What would happen, I thought, when these kids are the older ones and kicking ten kinds of **** out the new kids? What would happen if I put a kids league ahead of their development as players, and retarded their technical growth? In the end I had created a Frankenstein I did not approve of, and left. I still regret it, and it perhaps partly explains why I'm so vicious towards it nowadays. At bottom, I was disgusted how I was charged with the leadership of these players and took winning to be so important that I didn't care how we got there; I viewed them as mere pieces to play upon the board, not as people I was entrusted to look after and to teach. It was a junior league ffs. And yet I was being hounded from all sides that winning was all that counted, so acceded. The key came when I realised that when you're growing and learning being allowed peace to do so in a non-competitive environment is critical - growth demands self reflection, not just force, and you must encourage kids to work things out for themselves. It was a revelation when I discovered that.

    One of the reasons I get so upset about so-called physical play you see is not because I am taking some arbitrary moral high ground. I do have issues in it, yes, but one must also stress to people that it is about seeing the big picture too. It's about recognising there are more important things than winning. How you do these things is more important in several key senses not as prescient of some abstract moral or philosophical concept, but for recognising that winning is but one component. It may even be the most important, but it is still only one factor. To charge headlong after that one factor can often lead you to miss other critical facets which enable secondary planning. In a funny sense, I'd say Arsenal have much more of a Plan B than any other side in the Premiership in that sense . . .

    The tactical regimen therefore employed by teams who set out to kick us, which broadly I think we'd have to concede is rather accurate a term, is in my opinion very much a case of cutting one's nose off to spite one's face. Is Arsene being stubborn in always playing as he feels we should, or actually being brave? It makes me laugh when people accuse us of doing that when the teams who publicly talk about battering us senseless for ninety minutes can hardly be accused of strategic dynamism. The simple fact of the matter is Arsene is giving these kids an education in aspects of the game that extend beyond the pitch. He knows the value of winning, but most importantly he knows the value of winning well. The Sam Allardyce's and Phil Brown's of this world are microcosms of sheer uncultured idiocy, whereby they are perhaps the real stubborn ones. They just want to win and are safe in the knowledge there is no more to their jobs than that.

    Such a pity, as they're missing out on a world of learning themselves.
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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    Do you not think he has become more of an idealist thought as time has passed, and to his detriment I might add? When you were winning titles he wasn't anywhere near as staunch to his principles and Arsenal were one of the more physical sides in the league.

    Fergie used to be more of an idealist than he is now, especially in his early years but he certainly isn't anymore. He's gone in the other way in that respect.
    I don't think he's become more of an idealist as time has passed, Wenger hasn't changed at all since the day he joined. Wenger isn't purposely signing short players or weak players in an attempt to prove his ideals. He just prefers to have players that can play football very well, players like Vieira, Gilberto, Petit, Diaby etc might be quite tall and physical but they were all also very good footballers. Wenger is just as desperate as any fan to see us win a trophy and he's doing whatever he believes will get us there. Maybe sometimes it can look like he cares more about his principles than winning, but even if he did say for example tell the players to go out and play aggressively, keep fouling and doing dirty tackles it most probably wouldn't work. He is quite stubborn and does have his ideals but winning is his aim!
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    Well it's been good to have a pleasant discussion but I'm going bed now.
 
 
 
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