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    (Original post by Stu Laverty)
    You seem to associate the Shawcross/Ramsey incident as if that has something to do with the fact that Arsenal are being kicked about but it doesn't - it's a 50/50 that you see in every single match, just with unfortunate consequences. I'd bet anything that on 6th March, Alex Song goes in for a similar challenge against Burnley and concede a freekick because it was mistimed or he wasn't quick enough. There are much worse tackles than Shawcross' which had (thankfully) better outcomes than what happened to Aaron Ramsey - Kevin Nolan on Victor Anichibe; William Gallas on Mark Davies; Pogatetz on Possebon. And yet far less malicious tackles like Shawcross on Ramsey and Joe Jacobson on Kieron Dyer can have much worse consequences - the Ramsey injury has nothing to do with the fact that it's Arsenal, it's a challenge that could have happened in any game between any teams. If it were a particularly nasty challenge like on Eduardo, I could see the complaints and conspiracy shouts, but it wasn't.
    But the point is we've been complaining for ages that the players dont get enough protection and that inevitably a nasty injury is going to happen. Going into the FA Cup game Fuller comes out in the press saying 'We’ve got to hit them with a bit of aggression'. And in the game Stoke committed foul after foul, 20 in fact including a nasty one of Cesc's shin from Shawcross yet didn't receive one booking, at the very least they should have picked up 3. As long as officials let players get away with poor challenges without a booking these incidents are going to occur, it's not like Arsenal fans have suddenly thrown up a fuss because it's a leg break, a lot of us have been complaining for a long while. I'd love to see the foul stats from the past couple of months, it's amazing Cesc hasn't got injured because he's constantly been torn to shreds.
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    (Original post by Overmars)
    Which is what makes think that anyone who says it's a "50/50" is thick as ****.
    It isn't until Ramsey wins the ball that he ever looks favourite to get it. He's running full tilt and lunging whilst Shawcross looks to be running through treacle. Shawcross has made his final movement for the ball before Ramsey has thrown himself at it.



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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    It isn't until Ramsey wins the ball that he ever looks favourite to get it.
    BS.

    Nice try though.
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    The debate has been exhausted to ***** and it's clear nothing is going to happen. Because no one apart from the team with the three broken legs are going to care. Same ol' forren Arsenal, too weak and too pathetic to play with the big boys. Only once this becomes symptomatic, once United and 'Pool and Chelsea and other teams have to go through the motions of realising that violence isn't part of the modern game. Only then will there be change. It's a huge shame so many supporters are blinded by such unfounded patriotism to the 'british game' to realise we're not arguing for preferential treatment, but that Arsenal supporters have realised there is more to football than just winning, and winning at all costs. Though I hope that this will spark a gradual change into a more sanitised game, and really, it won't detract from the game. It will make it more beautiful.
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    (Original post by reems23)
    The debate has been exhausted to ***** and it's clear nothing is going to happen. Because no one apart from the team with the three broken legs are going to care. Same ol' forren Arsenal, too weak and too pathetic to play with the big boys. Only once this becomes symptomatic, once United and 'Pool and Chelsea and other teams have to go through the motions of realising that violence isn't part of the modern game. Only then will there be change. It's a huge shame so many supporters are blinded by such unfounded patriotism to the 'british game' to realise we're not arguing for preferential treatment, but that Arsenal supporters have realised there is more to football than just winning, and winning at all costs. Though I hope that this will spark a gradual change into a more sanitised game, and really, it won't detract from the game. It will make it more beautiful.
    lol

    Brilliant post. Wise old Arsenal fans have seen the light and are being taught good by their messiah Arsene. The infidels shall suffer and burn in hell.
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    (Original post by Abiraleft)
    No opinions at all about Melo, anyone? That's odd...
    Was voted the worst signing of the season in Italy :p:

    Though Henry and Bergkamp didn't exactly set the world alight in Italy and they turned out alright.
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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    lol

    Brilliant post. Wise old Arsenal fans have seen the light and are being taught good by their messiah Arsene. The infidels shall suffer and burn in hell.
    You're a moron. Such a moron. Bones are being broken, lives are being messed with, years are taken out with injures, because managers want to win, fairly or foully, at all costs. When you see Nani with his foot dangling or Anderson with multiple fractures, then perhaps you'll understand. Until then, **** off.
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    (Original post by reems23)
    The debate has been exhausted to ***** and it's clear nothing is going to happen. Because no one apart from the team with the three broken legs are going to care. Same ol' forren Arsenal, too weak and too pathetic to play with the big boys. Only once this becomes symptomatic, once United and 'Pool and Chelsea and other teams have to go through the motions of realising that violence isn't part of the modern game. Only then will there be change.
    Precisely.

    And we can help force the change.

    We should know what we have to do by now.
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    (Original post by reems23)
    You're a moron. Such a moron. Broken bones, lives being messed with, years out with injures, caused by managers who want to win, fairly or foully, at all costs. When you see Nani with his foot dangling or Anderson with multiple fractures, then perhaps you'll understand. Until then, **** off.
    Playing rugby a few years back I saw my good friend break his leg in two places (and shatter his knee) literally only two metres away from me when he took a quick tap penalty and was tackled incredibly hard. It's a contact sport - it's what happens. If you can't face the chance of being injured: don't play. If you can't face the chance of someone else being injured: don't even watch.
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    (Original post by reems23)
    The debate has been exhausted to ***** and it's clear nothing is going to happen. Because no one apart from the team with the three broken legs are going to care. Same ol' forren Arsenal, too weak and too pathetic to play with the big boys. Only once this becomes symptomatic, once United and 'Pool and Chelsea and other teams have to go through the motions of realising that violence isn't part of the modern game. Only then will there be change. It's a huge shame so many supporters are blinded by such unfounded patriotism to the 'british game' to realise we're not arguing for preferential treatment, but that Arsenal supporters have realised there is more to football than just winning, and winning at all costs. Though I hope that this will spark a gradual change into a more sanitised game, and really, it won't detract from the game. It will make it more beautiful.
    :facepalm2:

    Vieira, Petit, anyone? Keown.... Arsenal gave as good as they got once. The game was never meant to be sanitsed as you suggest, wait for the Arsenal-City game and the vitriol aimed at Adebayor, and then come back in here and tell me you want a sanitised game, both on and off the pitch......
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    (Original post by Kevmeister)
    :facepalm2:

    Vieira, Petit, anyone? Keown.... Arsenal gave as good as they got once.
    Petit? :lolwut:

    And exactly. If we were kicked, we'd kick back. Eye for an eye.

    That's why we need to start throwing ourselves in potential leg-breakers too. If anyone breaks their legs, we'll give the standard response we're getting -- "**** happens".
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    (Original post by Kevmeister)
    :facepalm2:

    Vieira, Petit, anyone? Keown.... Arsenal gave as good as they got once. The game was never meant to be sanitsed as you suggest, wait for the Arsenal-City game and the vitriol aimed at Adebayor, and then come back in here and tell me you want a sanitised game, both on and off the pitch......
    Tough yes but they didn't go round mercilessly kicking people or breaking legs. In fact name me one incident where an Arsenal player has broken another players leg since Wenger arrived.
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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    Playing rugby a few years back I saw my good friend break his leg in two places (and shatter his knee) literally only two metres away from me when he took a quick tap penalty and was tackled incredibly hard. It's a contact sport - it's what happens. If you can't face the chance of being injured: don't play. If you can't face the chance of someone else being injured: don't even watch.
    'Contact sport' another one of these laughable phrases. Water Polo is a water sport, does that mean we should expect people to drown? Luge is a high speed sport, should we expect people to die?

    Incidents like the Shawcross effort are called offences and fouls and they are treated with punishments in order to preserve the attractive nature of the game and prevent injury to the participants.

    Contact is part of the game, the problem lies in the fact a lot of fans now seem to deem it an acceptable part of the game which goes against the fundamentals of football.
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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    It isn't until Ramsey wins the ball that he ever looks favourite to get it. He's running full tilt and lunging whilst Shawcross looks to be running through treacle. Shawcross has made his final movement for the ball before Ramsey has thrown himself at it.




    This is why looking at still pictures can be pretty useless. While the ball is closer to Shawcross it is going away from him and towards Ramsey. And even if it didn't look like he was going to win the ball, what has that got to do with anything? So what if Ramsey's running faster than Shawcross? How did Ramsey throw himself at the ball?
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    (Original post by Economist)
    But the point is we've been complaining for ages that the players dont get enough protection and that inevitably a nasty injury is going to happen. Going into the FA Cup game Fuller comes out in the press saying 'We’ve got to hit them with a bit of aggression'. And in the game Stoke committed foul after foul, 20 in fact including a nasty one of Cesc's shin from Shawcross yet didn't receive one booking, at the very least they should have picked up 3. As long as officials let players get away with poor challenges without a booking these incidents are going to occur, it's not like Arsenal fans have suddenly thrown up a fuss because it's a leg break, a lot of us have been complaining for a long while. I'd love to see the foul stats from the past couple of months, it's amazing Cesc hasn't got injured because he's constantly been torn to shreds.
    That argument would only stand if the challenge was one of those "rough-'em up" challenges. It wasn't, it was the sort of thing you see every week. Like I said, against Burnley you'll see Alex Song (edit: or whoever's in midfield/defence) put in a similar challenge when the ball is running loose and countless others will as well. Like other non-Arsenal fans have said, it wasn't even the worst challenge of the weekend, it probably wasn't even the worst challenge of the match.

    Arsenal probably do need a bit more protection, but that injury to Ramsey could have happened in any game, be it Arsenal vs. Stoke or Arsenal vs. Barcelona because those types of challenges happen all the time. It was just misfortunate and mistimed on Shawcross's part.

    Leg breaks aren't exclusive to Arsenal, they happen all across the world in football for as long as there has been a game to compete in. Are you telling me that leg breaks don't occur in Spain or in European competitions where the referees are more lenient? Because they do, and they always have done. And even if teams got more protection from referees, they'd still happen and at a similar rate, I'd imagine.
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    (Original post by Kevmeister)
    :facepalm2:

    Vieira, Petit, anyone? Keown.... Arsenal gave as good as they got once. The game was never meant to be sanitsed as you suggest, wait for the Arsenal-City game and the vitriol aimed at Adebayor, and then come back in here and tell me you want a sanitised game, both on and off the pitch......
    It's not a lack of passion i'm asking for, it's a lack of brutality. And that's what players who intend to kick the other team and 'get up 'em' are. Brutes.
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    Kick them Back. In the shins. In the faces. Three match ban. Yay.
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    (Original post by Michelin Man)
    Tough yes but they didn't go round mercilessly kicking people or breaking legs. In fact name me one incident where an Arsenal player has broken another players leg since Wenger arrived.
    Also true. The thing is if we were going around like Stoke like people suggest, we would've gone on to break some legs in all probability.

    And as Bobby says, all this "Well Arsenal did this 7 years ago" rubbish is irrelevant. It doesn't make it hypocritical. If the rules were changed back then, we still would've been all in favour for it -- because we still had the technical ability to batter everyone, just like we do now.

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    (Original post by Overmars)
    Petit? :lolwut:

    And exactly. If we were kicked, we'd kick back. Eye for an eye.

    That's why we need to start throwing ourselves in potential leg-breakers too. If anyone breaks their legs, we'll give the standard response we're getting -- "**** happens".
    I meant the Vieira/Petit partnership.

    I don't see why just because Arsene's philosophy has evolved that the game must follow, tbph.

    MM, I never said they broke legs, did I? As for mercilessly kicking people and breaking legs, you can't level that accusation at anyone in the league. Perhaps one, but not both. Anyway, I've already covered what I believe has to be done in HP's thread, so I'm not getting into this debate again.
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    (Original post by Kevmeister)
    :facepalm2:

    Vieira, Petit, anyone? Keown.... Arsenal gave as good as they got once.
    That is a myth.

    I've watched Arsenal more than you, and I can honestly say their approach was absolutely nothing like Stoke/Bolton etc. We had one or two dirty players, but the general approach was very positive. Petit wasn't dirty btw, not every DM has to fall in to the masch/gattuso bracket. You can't use Vieira to represent what the invincibles were like when it came to tackling. That's just stupid.
 
 
 
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