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    (Original post by Ar5enal Fan)
    He not only passed the ball back to the Porto player in the wrong position, but he then just stood there interfering in play and actually obstructed Campbell.
    Well who was he going to pass the ball back to?

    And Campbell wasn't looking so he obstructed nothing. If Campbell had of made an attempt to stop the free kick then he would of been booked for not being the full 10 yards (or as much as allowed in the area).
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    (Original post by Kevmeister)
    FML. He did not onstruct Campbell, Sol walked into him.

    Sol should've gone to specsavers.
    Oh yeah so they're taking a quick free kick, but our defender has to go around the referee? It was lazy by us, but I think the referee's incompetence was equally as important.
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    (Original post by Panthalic)
    Come off it, how often does a referee demand the ball to give immediately to the other side? Have you ever seen that happen before? The naive defender is not in control of the game, the official is. If the Porto player had demanded the ball, Fabianksi wouldn't have given it to him. If the Porto player already had the ball and took it quickly, I wouldn't have a problem. The ref didn't just allow Porto to take it quickly, he actually helped them do so. Referees shouldn't help teams in any way, which this guy did. That's the problem.
    The referees nearly always demand the ball back and the players nearly always walk away, ball in hand, arguing about the decision or implying they are going to give it back but don't actually do so until they/their team are in a better position.
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    (Original post by Ar5enal Fan)
    Oh yeah so they're taking a quick free kick, but our defender has to go around the referee? It was lazy by us, but I think the referee's incompetence was equally as important.
    If Sol looked up he would've seen where the ref was, he did not. Sol walked into the ref, the ref did NOT obstruct him. I never said the ref was competent, but yes his incompetence played a part, but so did Campbell's.
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    (Original post by meskell)
    The referees nearly always demand the ball back and the players nearly always walk away, ball in hand, arguing about the decision or implying they are going to give it back but don't actually do so until they/their team are in a better position.
    QFT.
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    (Original post by meskell)
    The referees nearly always demand the ball back and the players nearly always walk away, ball in hand, arguing about the decision or implying they are going to give it back but don't actually do so until they/their team are in a better position.
    I don't think they often ask for the ball to be given to them, majority of the time it's passed to an opposition player near where the infringement took place. It's not unreasonable to assume that if a referee asks for the ball in his hands, he will take control of the situation, not simply hand the ball over to the opposition player. What gamemanship people usually get up is irrelevant, the referee should control the game and ensure that he personally doesn't give an advantage to either team.

    It's a focused point that I'm making, it was poor of the referee to take the ball from Fabianski and gift it to the Porto player. In doing so he handed Porto an advantage that wouldn't have existed without his involvement and so influenced the passage of play. Again, I've never said it breaches the rules, it's just simply poor control of the game.
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    I dont even support arsenal and I do feel pretty sorry for them. The ref was obstructing Sol, but that said, the pass and shot was probably too quick for him to react anyway. All this discussion should be pointless though because Arsenal are expected to be able to progress with this result.

    Also, can someone explain why Rosicky keeps being subbed off when a change in mentality (ie more offensive) is made? He's so great, and his decision making is immense on counter attacks etc. Just a thought.

    Lastly, Wenger should have bought Given. Theres my 2 cents
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    (Original post by Panthalic)
    I don't think they often ask for the ball to be given to them, majority of the time it's passed to an opposition player near where the infringement took place. It's not unreasonable to assume that if a referee asks for the ball in his hands, he will take control of the situation, not simply hand the ball over to the opposition player. What gamemanship people usually get up is irrelevant, the referee should control the game and ensure that he personally doesn't give an advantage to either team.

    It's a focused point that I'm making, it was poor of the referee to take the ball from Fabianski and gift it to the Porto player. In doing so he handed Porto an advantage that wouldn't have existed without his involvement and so influenced the passage of play. Again, I've never said it breaches the rules, it's just simply poor control of the game.
    Well ok it could be argued on your specifc, focused point that the referee gave Porto the advantage. But could it not also be argued that it is naivety from Fabianski to give the ball back so easily? The Arsenal players should try to control the game and force other people to react to them.

    Also your first point is saying Fabianski should of given the ball to a Porto player :lolwut:

    But yes you do often see the ball being demanded by the ref and the ball being given to him, or the ball being passed in the referees general direction, perhaps picked up by an opposition player.
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    (Original post by newlife)
    I dont even support arsenal and I do feel pretty sorry for them. The ref was obstructing Sol, but that said, the pass and shot was probably too quick for him to react anyway. All this discussion should be pointless though because Arsenal are expected to be able to progress with this result.

    Also, can someone explain why Rosicky keeps being subbed off when a change in mentality (ie more offensive) is made? He's so great, and his decision making is immense on counter attacks etc. Just a thought.

    Lastly, Wenger should have bought Given. Theres my 2 cents
    Whilst Given is a very good goalkeeper, he is not world class. This is mainly due to his inability to organise and control a defence to a top level as well as not dominating the area when the ball is delivered in. As a shot stopper he is immense but outside of the 6 yard box he is not a top class keeper.
    He is one of the keepers such as Jaaskaleinen and Niemi who look great in poor teams and behind poor defences but are never going to be world class and are then never taken on by the top teams.
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    (Original post by TMDaines)
    In your opinion. You'll find the exact same *****ing and moaning about officiating in American Football as you will here in football. The officials were openly ****ged off for their performance in Vikings v Saints. Even the NFL themselves felt obliged to point out serious errors were made.
    Well difference is in the NFL the coaches can challenge the decisions twice a game, and then the refs look back at the footage. Not saying this would work in football, given it doesn't stop and start like NFL, but at least they've got a system to fix mistakes in game..
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    (Original post by meskell)
    Well ok it could be argued on your specifc, focused point that the referee gave Porto the advantage.
    Thank you, that's the only point I'm making.

    (Original post by meskell)
    But could it not also be argued that it is naivety from Fabianski to give the ball back so easily? The Arsenal players should try to control the game and force other people to react to them.
    Probably, but that is pure gamemanship and I don't feel it's fair to place responsibility on people for playing to the spirit of the game. You're right though, if they did, the situation would've been avoided.

    (Original post by meskell)
    Also your first point is saying Fabianski should of given the ball to a Porto player :lolwut:

    But yes you do often see the ball being demanded by the ref and the ball being given to him, or the ball being passed in the referees general direction, perhaps picked up by an opposition player.
    No, I was making the point that after the majority of fouls, the ball is given back to the opposition team. That doesn't hold when the action is a vulnerable area, but it's relatively uncommon for the ball to go the ref after the whistle is blown.
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    (Original post by amii_G)
    A few points on what was essentially an amazing football match to watch.

    1) I don't even care that Arsenal lost; they put so much heart and soul into this game. It felt so good being an Arsenal supporter tonight.
    2) Devastatingly, I doubted Nasri tonight. Previous games pointed to the fact this man was not playing to his potential and this made me sad. Fortunately, he proved me wrong from the offset! What a performance from him, such a vital asset to our team and tonight's game.
    3) Denilson. We all know he isn't the most skillful player in the world, but he proved to be solid tonight. So much heart and everytime he went into a tackle, I knew he would win it for us. He can be so unpredictable, but when he turns his lights on upstairs, this guy is great.
    4) Fabregas and Rosicky were fantastic as usual. Fab's wasn't dazzling, but he played the balls we needed and kept it short and sweet.
    5) Bendtner was exactly what we needed. I hope he'll continue in the form that he's in for the remainder of the season.
    6) Two goals absolutely gifted to Porto. Ref had a good game up until his atrocious decision to allow Porto's second goal. Also, I feel so sorry for Fabianski. He really didn't deserve luck to pay him so harshly. Other than those two opposition goals, he had a solid game.
    7) Campbell. MOTM. What a man he is. I hope people will agree me about this particular point, because Sol was simply awesome.

    8) Don't worry Gooners, we will destroy them at the Emirates.
    Blind optimism.

    Arsenal played poorly today. The first point you made is moot, as that is exactly what they were lacking all across the pitch.
    Clichy had a disaster against Varela, and while I feel the blame for the first goal should go to Fabianski, Clichy should shoulder some of it for letting him 'cross' the ball in so easily. Apart from Clichy I thought that for large periods of the game our defenders played good football. Campbell, Sagna & Vermaelen did well - I especially liked Campbell's tackle early on in the game. In regards to the 2nd goal, Vermaelen should not be strolling down the pitch, and Campbell needs to be fully aware, not bemoaning about the decision. Nevertheless, I think that Fabianski should not have given the ball back when there were no defenders present, and especially not turned his back!


    The midfield turned out a lacklustre performance today; the only plus point for me was that Diaby made some decent tackles and important interceptions - even though his passing was not stellar. Denilson was horrible, and so many times today when he had the ball with Fabregas in space he would decide to either pass it back to the defenders or lose possession. He isn't developing enough to become a real presence in the middle of the park, maybe another season at most and we should look to let him go. Fabregas as well today had a poor game - as our captain, during tough away games I feel it is his responsibility to give 110% and inspire the rest of the team. His corners were poor, and if it wasn't for Porto's inability to mark players (rosicky & sol) we wouldn't have gotten our goal. I didn't see any smart passes from Fabregas, it was all too safe and conservative - maybe this was Wenger's gameplan considering the injuries, and coming out from the Estadio do Dragao with a goal-less draw would have been a decent result. However, after going one down, and then two down I didn't see any change of mentality from the players, and crucially from Fabregas - here's hoping for a stellar performance from Fabregas against Sunderland

    Bendtner is ****. Honestly, I just don't understand what Wenger sees in him. He is powerful in the air, but extremely ineffective as a striker as he lacks pace & any sort of composure in front of goal. In my opinion, the 4-3-3 does not suit Bendtner - I see him as an Heskey-esque player; he would be more suited with another supporting striker. There was a moment in the game which made me laugh, where Bendtner made two neat touches to beat a player and then just seemed to tumble over and fall flat on the floor and lose the ball! Rosicky & Nasri were just dull in the game, nothing to show that they are quality players, playing for a place in the last 8 of the C.league. Walcott was given maybe 15 minutes I think, but he was ineffective, and is really worrying me abit.. I do believe Rosicky should have had a penalty though.

    edit: Should be a better result at home - I think 1-0 maybe 2-0, depending on which players are back from injury & whether some decide to give it their all.
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    (Original post by Panthalic)
    Thank you, that's the only point I'm making.



    Probably, but that is pure gamemanship and I don't feel it's fair to place responsibility on people for playing to the spirit of the game. You're right though, if they did, the situation would've been avoided.



    No, I was making the point that after the majority of fouls, the ball is given back to the opposition team. That doesn't hold when the action is a vulnerable area, but it's relatively uncommon for the ball to go the ref after the whistle is blown.
    From a starting point quite a distance apart, that was a pretty good conclusion. Good to see and be involved in an actual discussion on the football forum without "stfu n00b I played for Real Madrid but turned them down to study Media studies and play Halo 2 (until the servers were shut down, fffffuuuuuuuu e-penis-rage!!)"
    So have some rep :yep:
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    (Original post by newlife)
    I dont even support arsenal and I do feel pretty sorry for them. The ref was obstructing Sol, but that said, the pass and shot was probably too quick for him to react anyway. All this discussion should be pointless though because Arsenal are expected to be able to progress with this result.

    Also, can someone explain why Rosicky keeps being subbed off when a change in mentality (ie more offensive) is made? He's so great, and his decision making is immense on counter attacks etc. Just a thought.

    Lastly, Wenger should have bought Given. Theres my 2 cents
    I agree.
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    Can't **** off Bendtner for tonights performance, thought he actually had a decent game for once. I think the only highlights were Rosicky really looking dangerous cutting in, Walcott actually making one decent run in a game and Clichy looking a bit more solid after his recent run. Diaby + Denilson (just never seems to know what to do with the ball) + fabianski were the negatives in this game. Thought Sol looked pretty good as well, dealt with everything and no blame for the passback in my opinion, only problem is he always looks like he's stretched to his maximum..
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    Urgh, essay and a half, TI-84. But yeah, I'll answer it.
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    Credit to the ref though, you know for a fact there wouldn't be one English ref who wouldn't have brought the play back there, but he did 100% the right thing in allowing the goal to stand. (y)
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    Porto's second goal was absolutely fine. The referee didn't get in Sol's way at all. They'd just about scored before Sol even realised what was going on.

    Then penalty (or lack thereof) was wrong though.
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    I don't think I've seen us lose the ball so often in a game for a while.
    Thank god Rosicky is back, he's the best out of him, Nasri and Walcott. Bendtner can't do it on his own up front, and Cesc wasn't on his game tonight.
    All in all just thought we went completely flat after going 2-1 down, the game was there for us at 1-1 to go on and win.
    We should get through, but it depends on the mentality of the players on the night.
    Going 1-0 up is what we need, but I can see a PSV all over again tbh.
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    (Original post by TommyWannabe)
    Porto's second goal was absolutely fine. The referee didn't get in Sol's way at all. They'd just about scored before Sol even realised what was going on.

    Then penalty (or lack thereof) was wrong though.
    Arsenal would've done the exact same in that position.

    In fact I'm pretty sure it was Henry who pioneered that quick free-kick routine in the premiership against Villa seasons ago.
 
 
 
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