Why is communism not as socially stigmatised as fascism? Watch

Moe Lester
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#21
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#21
(Original post by Mr_K_Dilkington)
Stalin being an anti-Semitic murderer really has very little to do with Communist ideology. Hitler being an anti-Semitic murderer has everything to do with national socialist .
Yes.

or fascist ideology
No, facism doesn't equal racial supremecy. As I said before Iran is a facist nation today, yet doesn't practice racial supremecy.

fascism - a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)
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Moe Lester
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#22
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(Original post by Samrout)
ahem *points to sig*
Yeah because that was obvious from the post.
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A Cat
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#23
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(Original post by Moe Lester)
Yeah because that was obvious from the post.
oh sorry sir, many apologies. Please look into your heart and find the kindness to forgive me.
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Moe Lester
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#24
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(Original post by Samrout)
oh sorry sir, many apologies. Please look into your heart and find the kindness to forgive me.
:nothing:
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Jono.B
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#25
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(Original post by Mr_K_Dilkington)
lol, good to see people still falling for this myth.
It's not a myth. The movie "Che" is a prime example, depicting Che Guevara as a hero and freedom fighter, when the reality couldn't be further from the truth. Many don't realise how he brutally murdered his opponents as soon as the revolution was over, no, instead they wear him on their t-shirts! He was an evil man, yet you still have the film industry glorifying him. This is just one example.
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Mr_K_Dilkington
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#26
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(Original post by Jono.B)
It's not a myth. The movie "Che" is a prime example, depicting Che Guevara as a hero and freedom fighter, when the reality couldn't be further from the truth. Many don't realise how he brutally murdered his opponents as soon as the revolution was over, no, instead they wear him on their t-shirts! He was an evil man, yet you still have the film industry glorifying him. This is just one example.
I know, I watched that film and thought the same thing. I know who Che was and what he did thanks.

I'm not talking about specific movies. I'm talking about systemic trends in the media industry. The media has a massive slant (in general, I'm not interested in specific movie) towards the pro-establishment right. Spend a little bit of time researching news coverage of say the Iraq War, terrorism, Israel etc. and you will find it massively bias towards state interests. Read history books (especially one written before 1990) and tell me there is not a rightist slant to them.

Check out Noam Chomsky's "Manufacturing Consent" for this argument supported by numerous examples and empirical evidence.
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Mr_K_Dilkington
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#27
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(Original post by Moe Lester)
No, facism doesn't equal racial supremecy. As I said before Iran is a facist nation today, yet doesn't practice racial supremecy.
It's fascist in some ways, I wouldn't say all.

Fascism is a pretty amorphous term in many ways, Orwell called it the most abused word in the English language iirc.

Anyway here is an expect's (Paxman) definition of fascism - "a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."

Racial supremacy is clearly very intimately connected to fascism if we use this definition.
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Mr_K_Dilkington
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#28
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Left-leaning Hollywood: A myth dies

Reginald D Hunter on the political bias of Batman
Last edited by Mr_K_Dilkington; 8 years ago
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Johnthebaptist1
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#29
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(Original post by FinishHim!)
Communist states have murdered just as many people as fascist states (if not more), sometimes on discriminatory grounds (like the Third Reich), yet it isn't as looked down upon as much as fascism?

Yes, I know self-styled communist states weren't truly communist, in some respects, yet I am referring the public reaction of the term/belief. Let's be honest, a lot of people call groups "fascist scum" without knowing much about the political ideology.

I mean, if a student stood in a university area with communist flags (which happens) and pictures of Stalin, Mao, etc. he may receive a few rolling eyes, but the reaction would be nowhere near as severe as if a student stood in a university area with fascist flags and pictures of Hitler and Mussolini.

Do you think I am right in this judgement? If so, why do you think this is? Because we directly opposed fascism in WWII, perhaps?

Obligatory disclaimer: I am not fascist, before I get the "lol ur facizt u nazi!11!" comment.
The other day someone who I know to be far from stupid (usually anyway), asked me who Stalin was. Then had trouble believing he actually killed more people than Hitler.
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Mr_K_Dilkington
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(Original post by Johnthebaptist1)
Then had trouble believing he actually killed more people than Hitler.
Debatable.
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Johnthebaptist1
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(Original post by Mr_K_Dilkington)
Debatable.
Really?

To what extent?

Its been a while since i read about either, but I thought the figures been thrown around were 6 - 7 million max for Hitler and somewhere closer to 20 million for Stalin?

Even the figures are a bit off, it seems like quite a big difference for Hitler to have been responsible for more deaths than Stalin.
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Pocket Calculator
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#32
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communism's not inherently narrow-minded and bigoted as a political philosophy, whereas fascism is. of course i'm not denying that communism typically turns out to be complete crаp when put into practise.
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Mr_K_Dilkington
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#33
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(Original post by Johnthebaptist1)
Really?

To what extent?

Its been a while since i read about either, but I thought the figures been thrown around were 6 - 7 million max for Hitler and somewhere closer to 20 million for Stalin?

Even the figures are a bit off, it seems like quite a big difference for Hitler to have been responsible for more deaths than Stalin.
Hitler is responsible for around 6 million Jews being killed. Then you have to consider 2-3 million Soviet POWs through starvation, overwork, disease and neglect, 2 million or so ethnic Poles, a few hundred thousand Romani gypsies, a couple hundred thousand people in the euthanasia campaign. On top of all these domestic deaths you have to attribute to him millions more in combat and bombing in WWII - 7 million German lives, the invasion of the USSR cost the lives of around 25 million citizens of the USSR etc etc.

The reasonable estimates for Stalin's death toll (in the collectivization drives, the Yezhovshchina, the famine, industrialization etc) stands somewhere inbetween maybe 15 - 20 million (though somewhere near 10 millions looks quite possible too).
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Mr_K_Dilkington
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#34
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(Original post by Pocket Calculator)
communism's not inherently narrow-minded and bigoted as a political philosophy, whereas fascism is.
You must never have encountered a hardcore Marxist-Leninist then (of course not all communists are Marxist-Leninists though).
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beepbeeprichie
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(Original post by Mr_K_Dilkington)
Stalin being an anti-Semitic murderer really has very little to do with Communist ideology. Hitler being an anti-Semitic murderer has everything to do with national socialist or fascist ideology. There's a huge difference here.
Yes but Stalin also murdered people (e.g. the kulaks) because of their class. Murdering people for reasons of class and of race are equally bad. Not that I'm saying you disagree...
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beepbeeprichie
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(Original post by Mr_K_Dilkington)
Hitler is responsible for around 6 million Jews being killed. Then you have to consider 2-3 million Soviet POWs through starvation, overwork, disease and neglect, 2 million or so ethnic Poles, a few hundred thousand Romani gypsies, a couple hundred thousand people in the euthanasia campaign. On top of all these domestic deaths you have to attribute to him millions more in combat and bombing in WWII - 7 million German lives, the invasion of the USSR cost the lives of around 25 million citizens of the USSR etc etc.

The reasonable estimates for Stalin's death toll (in the collectivization drives, the Yezhovshchina, the famine, industrialization etc) stands somewhere inbetween maybe 15 - 20 million (though somewhere near 10 millions looks quite possible too).
Just out of interest,do you know how this figure was worked out? Does it include people who would have died even if Stalin hadn't been around?
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mathperson
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The people that are mentioning cultural awareness of the nazis are correct. However I'd also like to suggest that since people are starting to realise that problems aren't being dealt with, and are voting BNP (now in Europe etc), the media and minority ethnic groups are trying to manipulate the larger population to think that voting for them is wrong (even though they always go on about this being a 'free' country etc).
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beepbeeprichie
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Fascism is a ***** to define. You know if somebody is a fascist without really being able to say why. A good starting point is that of allowing people to pursue only one conception of the good where that conception tends to be unity on some racial/cultural basis. Also worth noting many historians think the Nazis weren't fascists (fascism obviously originating with Mussolini,although the imagery goes back to the Romans).
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Mr_K_Dilkington
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(Original post by tomheppy)
Just out of interest,do you know how this figure was worked out? Does it include people who would have died even if Stalin hadn't been around?
For the most part, no. It's usually classed as "excess deaths." So, for example more of the numbers you'll see for the 1932-33 famine will take into account the expected number of deaths during the period in normal years. However, it's slightly difficult because there would have been deaths that year without Stalin due to the bad harvest and poor weather. So it's very complicated there. Often historians will try and refine their estimates with demographic data (censuses - what the population was, and what it should have been after the famine etc etc.), but obviously this is highly problematic, especially as there are so few reliable records.

The records for the Yezhovshchina are pretty difficult too, glasnost and the fall of the USSR helped a lot obviously, but we still can't tell the true numbers because of incomplete record keeping and efforts by the NVKD and Party to cover up the true extent of the murders.

All numbers are subject to much speculation and highly open to criticism.
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beepbeeprichie
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(Original post by Mr_K_Dilkington)
For the most part, no. It's usually classed as "excess deaths." So, for example more of the numbers you'll see for the 1932-33 famine will take into account the expected number of deaths during the period in normal years. However, it's slightly difficult because there would have been deaths that year without Stalin due to the bad harvest and poor weather. So it's very complicated there. Often historians will try and refine their estimates with demographic data (censuses - what the population was, and what it should have been after the famine etc etc.), but obviously this is highly problematic, especially as there are so few reliable records.

The records for the Yezhovshchina are pretty difficult too, glasnost and the fall of the USSR helped a lot obviously, but we still can't tell the true numbers because of incomplete record keeping and efforts by the NVKD and Party to cover up the true extent of the murders.

All numbers are subject to much speculation and highly open to criticism.
Thought process when I heard 'NKVD'->Beria>Pure evil
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