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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    I am happy to admit that feminism was needed in the 60s and 70s, but not any more. Men are just as unequal as women today, but in different ways. All the happiness tests point to women actually being happier than men in society, indeed men commit suicide at a rate of about 3-4x more. The shameless promotion of one sex is leading to greater inequality.
    How would you respond to this then:

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...ale-inequality

    specifically the bit at approx 1 minute in.

    I'm not sure you can view that clip in your country, but here's a transcript:

    "He's right, men run just four hundred and eighty five of our fortune 500 companies and only three branches of government; and there are more doors closing on them all the time."

    They're being sarcastic btw. Unless you would claim that of the top 500 executives, 485 of them are men, which seems far-fetched. So isn't there some latent inequality still there (and therefore still something for feminists to fight for)? (and yes, this clip concerns the US corporations, but I would think most of the western world is similar in this regard).
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    I googled it and found this, I think everyone should read it, especially those who disagree about women in lad mags being portrayed as sex objects:

    http://www.ltcconline.net/lukas/gender/pages/gaze.htm
    Yes, mens natural inclination to look at someone who is hot constitutes sexual harrassment:rolleyes:. Sheesh, what a man hater. How about this, if you don't want to be looked at, dress conservatively? Don't sexualise yourself with make up, tit jobs, and skimpy clothes. It's like me walking down the street naked and complaining about people looking at my pecker. What a man hater.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    You are entirely misunderstanding my point. Yes, they only want to bring women upto the standards of men in the areas they are behind. However, in areas men are behind they do nothing - they even stand in the way of things being said or done. If just one side is represented then inequalities always increase for the otherside, and whereas womens lives have gotten better and better mens have taken a step back, with their issues on the back burner. All you need to do is compare breast cancer treatment with prostate cancer treatment and you will see this.
    Again I'm talking about THE CONCEPT of feminism. You on the other hand are looking at it's application.
    How are you not getting this :brickwall:
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    (Original post by devotchka_)
    That's true, women have a hell of a lot more opportunities in terms of work than they used to, but patriarchy extends to all corners of society. Traditional ideas of how a woman should and should not act are still upheld. A prime example, and something I'm not advocating, as it's somewhat grotesque, is the fact that a man can go out, drink loads act like a lout and it;s okay, but a woman does the same and she's labelled a ladette with no self respect. That's patriarchy right there. I don;t agree that women should act that way, but it's utterly demonised in the media and stuff. Men get off a lot more lightly with that type of behaviour.
    I would say the blokes have just as little self respect, i like going out and drinking a lot but i don't act stupid. The problem with women doing it is because its a new phenomenon give it a few years and no one will care.

    And i don't believe that traditional views about how women should act ares till upheld but i do believe that in some things there is a distinction but id on't see this as a completely bad thing, because after all men and women are different both physically and mentally.

    I think its demonised more by the media simply because most of the head honchos in the media are men and to be honest the last thing i want to see is a girl wasted on the pavement, i don't want ot see a man either but as i want to have sex with females i just don't want to see it, i don't know its irrationale but meh its how i feel.

    But even though ideologicaly a completely gender blind society is a good thing, realisticly it can never happen because we do notice peoples gender and it would take 1000's of years before we get rid of patriarchal influence on society primarily because human society has since its conception been patriarchal in nature(there are some minor examples) this will take a long time to change and even longer especially because there are noticable differences between the genders.

    One day it will change(it seems ineveitable) but that will be thousands if not tens of thousands of years in the future and it will be subtle changes, like girls wearing trousers(example) not all the changes will come like women getting the vote most of them will be generations worth of slightly differeing attitudes.

    I actually don't know why i wrote half of what is above i got sidetracked lol.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Men did not need representation before, but they do now. They are over powered by the feminist ideology that is espoused from the top to the bottom of government, and is taught in all schools across the country. Feminists do not act on behalf of everyone, I have no idea where you got that idea from. Feminists, if anything, stand in the way of men getting equal rights in areas such as family law. The fact they are bringing womens inequalities up to equal, and stopping men from equalling their inequalities, means they are priveledging women in Western society. Feminism, never has and never will do anything for men.
    Ok, in what country is the feminist ideology taught in schools? It isn't taught, unless you study A level sociology (like me).

    I think you're just scared at the fact that women have slowly but surely gained equal rights to men. But by no means feminists are "overpowering" men, whatever that's supposed to mean. It has just made gender inequality and sexual discrimination less acceptable, and I can't see what's wrong with that.
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    (Original post by Rite)
    How would you respond to this then:

    http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...ale-inequality

    specifically the bit at approx 1 minute in.

    I'm not sure you can view that clip in your country, but here's a transcript:

    "He's right, men run just four hundred and eighty five of our fortune 500 companies and only three branches of government; and there are more doors closing on them all the time."

    They're being sarcastic btw. Unless you would claim that of the top 500 executives, 485 of them are men, which seems far-fetched. So isn't there some latent inequality still there (and therefore still something for feminists to fight for)? (and yes, this clip concerns the US corporations, but I would think most of the western world is similar in this regard).
    I never said there wasn't inequalities, however there are inequalities for both sides, and these inequalities are equal. Women are gaining ground in business, but if anything men are getting more screwed in family court - so women are having their cake and eating it. Out of interest, how many of those fortune 500 companies did women create? Perhaps when they are capable of creating highly successful companies they will be put in charge of them.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Again I'm talking about THE CONCEPT of feminism. You on the other hand are looking at it's application.
    How are you not getting this
    Even on a conceptual level it is only concerned with ironing out female inequalities, not male inequalities. The clue is in the femi.
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    There's a serious flaw with much feminist thinking, and it applies also to various **** about race and so on, too.

    If men and women are 'equal' and essentially indistinguishable from each other apart from their reproductive organs (as has been clearly proposed in this thread already), then any idea of complaining about the places of men and women in society and what they each acheive becomes completely meaningless, since why are you even recognising them as two different groups in the first place? If men and women are the same and should not be regarded differently, then what does it matter than 100 men take the 100 top jobs. It should be the same as if 100 women do, or if it's 50/50?

    It is immediately fallacious to call for 'equality' (meaning, normally, an enforced 50/50 share of wealth and lifestyles) between men and women on the grounds that they are inherently the same. Because, if they're the same, then what does it even matter? The discrimination then vanishes instantly.
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    Inequality against men is currently enshrined in law - we retire later despite our reduced life expectancy, from the birth of our children we have less rights in their upbringing than the mother. Men are also expected to be breadwinners - working long hours to feed their families - the 12% wage gap is a byproduct of this pressure - since the average man works far more hours than the average woman, you would expect a difference in salary and career progression.

    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    Men, on the other hand, are NOT sex objects to women- look at gossip magazines and you will rarely find a picture of a naked man inside. That says something about what attitudes women are expected to have towards sex- passive and submissive.
    You must be ******* joking!
    The girls in my sixth form took a stack of "gossip" mags (about 30 or so) and tore out all the pages containing topless or basically naked men. They wallpapered one wall of our common room.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    Ok, in what country is the feminist ideology taught in schools? It isn't taught, unless you study A level sociology (like me).

    I think you're just scared at the fact that women have slowly but surely gained equal rights to men. But by no means feminists are "overpowering" men, whatever that's supposed to mean. It has just made gender inequality and sexual discrimination less acceptable, and I can't see what's wrong with that.
    It is taught in history lessons. It is taught in English lessons. It is espoused by the female teachers. Things like the paygap are told to children. At all female schools they often dedicate a lot of time to feminist indoctrination. I'm not scared by the fact women have gained equal rights, I am pissed off they have had so much time devoted to their issues whilst mens issues have been semi-permenantly pushed to the sidelines when they are equally important. Women are gaining ground in the work place, the same cannot be said of men in the home. The home, many will agree, is far more important than the workplace, and has a far greater bareing on the overall fulfillment and happiness of the individual.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Yes, mens natural inclination to look at someone who is hot constitutes sexual harrassment:rolleyes:. Sheesh, what a man hater. How about this, if you don't want to be looked at, dress conservatively? Don't sexualise yourself with make up, tit jobs, and skimpy clothes. It's like me walking down the street naked and complaining about people looking at my pecker. What a man hater.
    For the last time, I'm not a man-hater. :rolleyes: Your ad-hominem arguments are pitiable, very pitiable indeed.

    Dressing the way you want to dress does not justify sexual harrassment. Just because a girl walks down the street in a miniskirt does not give men the right to touch her ass without her consent, and by no means is it justifiable. The fact that men percieve it as justifiable is the sort of sex discrimination we encounter nowadays, but sadly it is largely ignored.
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    (Original post by Libtolu)
    I would say the blokes have just as little self respect, i like going out and drinking a lot but i don't act stupid. The problem with women doing it is because its a new phenomenon give it a few years and no one will care.

    And i don't believe that traditional views about how women should act ares till upheld but i do believe that in some things there is a distinction but id on't see this as a completely bad thing, because after all men and women are different both physically and mentally.

    I think its demonised more by the media simply because most of the head honchos in the media are men and to be honest the last thing i want to see is a girl wasted on the pavement, i don't want ot see a man either but as i want to have sex with females i just don't want to see it, i don't know its irrationale but meh its how i feel.

    But even though ideologicaly a completely gender blind society is a good thing, realisticly it can never happen because we do notice peoples gender and it would take 1000's of years before we get rid of patriarchal influence on society primarily because human society has since its conception been patriarchal in nature(there are some minor examples) this will take a long time to change and even longer especially because there are noticable differences between the genders.

    One day it will change(it seems ineveitable) but that will be thousands if not tens of thousands of years in the future and it will be subtle changes, like girls wearing trousers(example) not all the changes will come like women getting the vote most of them will be generations worth of slightly differeing attitudes.

    I actually don't know why i wrote half of what is above i got sidetracked lol.
    Yeah huh, all the big wigs are usually male.
    Just because you can't change it asap, doesn't mean you should stop fighting for it. The more people that are aware of the prejudices that exist, the faster change will happen.
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    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    There's a serious flaw with much feminist thinking, and it applies also to various **** about race and so on, too.

    If men and women are 'equal' and essentially indistinguishable from each other apart from their reproductive organs (as has been clearly proposed in this thread already), then any idea of complaining about the places of men and women in society and what they each acheive becomes completely meaningless, since why are you even recognising them as two different groups in the first place? If men and women are the same and should not be regarded differently, then what does it matter than 100 men take the 100 top jobs. It should be the same as if 100 women do, or if it's 50/50?

    It is immediately fallacious to call for 'equality' (meaning, normally, an enforced 50/50 share of wealth and lifestyles) between men and women on the grounds that they are inherently the same. Because, if they're the same, then what does it even matter? The discrimination then vanishes instantly.
    Well you're assuming feminists care about obvious logical fallacies in their arguments, I think you can tell from this thread that they obviously don't.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    Even on a conceptual level it is only concerned with ironing out female inequalities, not male inequalities. The clue is in the femi.
    Again see one of my first replies to you.
    Why is it you won't do that?
    The Femi comes from it being because men had rights that women didn't have. So the focus WAS on catching women up.
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    (Original post by TShadow383)
    Inequality against men is currently enshrined in law - we retire later despite our reduced life expectancy, from the birth of our children we have less rights in their upbringing than the mother. Men are also expected to be breadwinners - working long hours to feed their families - the 12% wage gap is a byproduct of this pressure - since the average man works far more hours than the average woman, you would expect a difference in salary and career progression.


    You must be ******* joking!
    The girls in my sixth form took a stack of "gossip" mags (about 30 or so) and tore out all the pages containing topless or basically naked men. They wallpapered one wall of our common room.
    Thank **** someone else gets it. At every place i've worked with lots of women they have had men plastered all over their walls - usually topless Hollyoaks posters or something. One woman I worked with had a particular obsession with that prison break guy and Jack from lost, and her desk pretty much become a shrine to his naked body.
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    (Original post by Rite)
    "He's right, men run just four hundred and eighty five of our fortune 500 companies and only three branches of government; and there are more doors closing on them all the time."

    They're being sarcastic btw. Unless you would claim that of the top 500 executives, 485 of them are men, which seems far-fetched. So isn't there some latent inequality still there (and therefore still something for feminists to fight for)? (and yes, this clip concerns the US corporations, but I would think most of the western world is similar in this regard).
    You don't get to the top of a fortune 500 company if you spend any real time with your family, you don't get there if you go on maternity leave for a year, you don't get there unless you're aggressive enough to push others out of your way in the process.

    Men are naturally good at securing these positions.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    For the last time, I'm not a man-hater. Your ad-hominem arguments are pitiable, very pitiable indeed.

    Dressing the way you want to dress does not justify sexual harrassment. Just because a girl walks down the street in a miniskirt does not give men the right to touch her ass without her consent, and by no means is it justifiable. The fact that men percieve it as justifiable is the sort of sex discrimination we encounter nowadays, but sadly it is largely ignored.
    I never said men have the right to touch or do anything to them. But looking is not a crime, as you seem to imply. Like I said, everyone would look at me if I walked down the street naked, does that mean i'm being sexually harrassed? Or am I drawing attention?
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    The problem with feminists and feminisms (and before anyone starts I dont mind many feminists) is the ideals of it.

    Though it is seen as simply wanting equal rights, feminists themselves take what they want from the base and act upon their own ideals.

    So feminists complain about something seen as not equal and are often blinded so much by that they may not see the reason behind it, i.e boys getting more attention from the teachers, that could simply mean the teachers think the boys need more encouragement but oh no its sexist.

    I am a guy and often feel feminine in my emotions, I care more about love than getting pissed and one night stands, I love shopping, cooking and have a tendancy to keep manicuring my nails yet I am straight.

    Feminism often takes power AWAY from women in a way similar to one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist sort of idea because many women LIKE going out and dressing in ways that show off their assets and make men look at them, they have chosen to be that way but feminism seems to have the idea that a society dominated by men has brainwashed them into thinking that way.

    I have known feminists to tell women what their place is in the way of say a girl wants to play football or go camping is told they are male things and below them, I have also known feminists who are basically one of the lads who go drinking with you and see males as equal and expected to be treated the same, they dont mind a bloke flirting with them but hate if a bloke was pestering them and wouldnt leave her alone or being a drunk idiot which anyone would have a problem with.

    Equal is equal, and yes some countries have terrible ways of treating women or some arent awful but just outdated but at least for most looking down on the ones who are just old fashioned just smacks of people pushing their morals onto another country I have NEVER seen a woman as inferior and in fact going back to my emotions I prefer gossiping with females or having a laugh with them than males
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Again see one of my first replies to you.
    Why is it you won't do that?
    The Femi comes from it being because men had rights that women didn't have. So the focus WAS on catching women up.
    The femi comes from the fact women did need to be specifically represented in order to gain ground quickly because they were so far behind. It has stayed because idiots won't let go. Now it seems to exist to try and punish men for womens biology.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    It is taught in history lessons. It is taught in English lessons. It is espoused by the female teachers. Things like the paygap are told to children. At all female schools they often dedicate a lot of time to feminist indoctrination. I'm not scared by the fact women have gained equal rights, I am pissed off they have had so much time devoted to their issues whilst mens issues have been semi-permenantly pushed to the sidelines when they are equally important. Women are gaining ground in the work place, the same cannot be said of men in the home. The home, many will agree, is far more important than the workplace, and has a far greater bareing on the overall fulfillment and happiness of the individual.
    You fill find nowadays that most husbands are happy to do their fair share of housework- therefore men ARE gaining ground in the house. If this is not true, then the only reason why some do not have ground in the house is because they don't want their role as breadwinners to be taken away from them.
    There will be groups that will focus on the interests of some people more than others, like feminists, and you will have to come to terms with that. Men's issues that have been ignored by feminists will be addressed and taken care of elsewhere, so you cannot complain. It's like saying that those promoting class equality do not focus enough on the needs of upper-class people!
 
 
 
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