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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    There is a main flaw in your argument: you're restricting the options. According to you, we can either gaze at women who dress provocatively in the most pervish manner possible, or we avoid them completely. You fail to see all the other options and all the other (more respectable) ways of approaching a woman.

    You may like women staring at you, but in most cases the "male gaze" is often unwanted attention the female has to put up with.
    What possible use does dressing provocatively have beyond making men and women gaze at you? If you are dressed like that expect people to gaze at you. If you don't want them to don't draw attention to your sexual areas. It's like you completely deny humans are animals. Like i've said, you're just a man hater, and you need to keep up your little battle against them to stand even half a chance of getting laid.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    There is a main flaw in your argument: you're restricting the options. According to you, we can either gaze at women who dress provocatively in the most pervish manner possible, or we avoid them completely. You fail to see all the other options and all the other (more respectable) ways of approaching a woman.

    You may like women staring at you, but in most cases the "male gaze" is often unwanted attention the female has to put up with.
    The issue there is that you say "in most cases" but you dont know if thats true or how wide a range that does.

    I.e a guy is attracted to a girl so looks at her but shes not his type, thereby is unwanted attention.

    And also as others have said along the lines of that can go both ways, a girl could eye up a man she likes and he may not like her.

    The actual issue is that the reason why many men look at women is that the old fashioned idea that men have to be the approacher is still in effect despite women saying they often go up to men they like, men are still expected to be the ones to make a move so looks at her to see if he likes her AND if he gets a reaction from her to work upon and to bring womans mags into this I have read them before say when waiting in a doctors and have read articles on how to use that to their advantage, i.e smile at a guy and seem interested, and get him to buy you drinks then when you are bored or he is skint move on to the next guy, and this way you can go out with £5 as an emergency fund and get taxis both ways and still be back with £5 after getting drunk and a takeaway etc.
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    You're really anti-feminist? OK, **** off to the kitchen and make us a sandwich then.

    Go on, **** off. And shut the **** up while you're doing it.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    It is you who is taking the dislikes of a few - being looked at when dressing provocatively - and applying it universally to everyone. It's not like the women who enjoy being looked at are campaigning for men to look at every woman. If you don't like it, ignore it, it doesn't harm your life. There is no proof of any prevalence of male power in this society. They may well dominate the work place, but women dominate the raising of children, so they balance out. It isn't a case of a few cases to the contary - it is a universal rule that women get custody over children unless they are unfit.

    OK, I don't know what school you go to, but that last paragraph is just wrong in so many levels.
    1. There is plenty of proof to support the idea of patriarchy.
    2. In no way is the power between men and women balanced out. The fact that men dominate the workplace and women dominate the house just contributes to sexual discrimination as it is segregating men and women into jobs which are different in status and economic reward.
    3. No, it is not a "universal rule" that women get custody over the children. The whole aim of the system is to promote and achieve justice, and giving the woman custody of the kids just because she's a woman is not just, under the law.

    So learn the facts before making all these morbid assumptions.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    What possible use does dressing provocatively have beyond making men and women gaze at you? If you are dressed like that expect people to gaze at you. If you don't want them to don't draw attention to your sexual areas. It's like you completely deny humans are animals. Like i've said, you're just a man hater, and you need to keep up your little battle against them to stand even half a chance of getting laid.
    Provocativeness is not a property possessed by a thing but a property perceived in it.
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    (Original post by MittenKrust)
    The issue there is that you say "in most cases" but you dont know if thats true or how wide a range that does.

    I.e a guy is attracted to a girl so looks at her but shes not his type, thereby is unwanted attention.

    And also as others have said along the lines of that can go both ways, a girl could eye up a man she likes and he may not like her.

    The actual issue is that the reason why many men look at women is that the old fashioned idea that men have to be the approacher is still in effect despite women saying they often go up to men they like, men are still expected to be the ones to make a move so looks at her to see if he likes her AND if he gets a reaction from her to work upon and to bring womans mags into this I have read them before say when waiting in a doctors and have read articles on how to use that to their advantage, i.e smile at a guy and seem interested, and get him to buy you drinks then when you are bored or he is skint move on to the next guy, and this way you can go out with £5 as an emergency fund and get taxis both ways and still be back with £5 after getting drunk and a takeaway etc.
    The thing is, in cases of sexual harassment, the man is merely staring at the woman for his own sexual satisfaction, not to gain her attention and ask her out on a date. There is a difference between trying to catch a woman's eye and harassing her by gazing at her butt as she walks down the street.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    OK, I don't know what school you go to, but that last paragraph is just wrong in so many levels.
    1. There is plenty of proof to support the idea of patriarchy.
    2. In no way is the power between men and women balanced out. The fact that men dominate the workplace and women dominate the house just contributes to sexual discrimination as it is segregating men and women into jobs which are different in status and economic reward.
    3. No, it is not a "universal rule" that women get custody over the children. The whole aim of the system is to promote and achieve justice, and giving the woman custody of the kids just because she's a woman is not just, under the law.

    So learn the facts before making all these morbid assumptions.
    So you seriously think that women get custody over children 9/10 because 9/10 dads are worse than mothers? Are you for real? Your other arguments are pretty much you just saying 'you're wrong', they don't present any evidence whatsoever.
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    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    So why, for example, must we strive to have equal numbers of cocks and vaginas in certain kinds of jobs, or whatever else? Why does it matter if there are more penised post graduated? And so on.
    If that's the only difference between men and women then why are you even considering them as important groupings from which we must have equal representation?

    It's as meaningful as ensuring an even distribution of hair and eye colours (to take your example from earlier).
    The radical premise is that men and women are both human beings who should be treated equally, have equal opportunities etc
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    OK, I don't know what school you go to, but that last paragraph is just wrong in so many levels.
    1. There is plenty of proof to support the idea of patriarchy.
    2. In no way is the power between men and women balanced out. The fact that men dominate the workplace and women dominate the house just contributes to sexual discrimination as it is segregating men and women into jobs which are different in status and economic reward.
    3. No, it is not a "universal rule" that women get custody over the children. The whole aim of the system is to promote and achieve justice, and giving the woman custody of the kids just because she's a woman is not just, under the law.

    So learn the facts before making all these morbid assumptions.
    The same exact argument can be used for business. The aim of the business system is to put people in the right jobs for economic prosperity, it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of gender. So there is no discrimination,
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    Provocativeness is not a property possessed by a thing but a property perceived in it.
    Provocativeness - to provoke - is obviously subjective as people will be provoked by different things. It is widely known in our society, indeed any society the world over, that wearing revealing clothing is deemed provocative. Men are programmed to be drawn to it. Just as birds who do mating dances with colourful feathers are.
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    (Original post by littleshambles)
    Provocativeness is not a property possessed by a thing but a property perceived in it.
    Prove it. Alot of physical attractiveness can be broken down in approximate rules, therefore there are certain qualities which are objectively provocative.
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    (Original post by Elipsis)
    What possible use does dressing provocatively have beyond making men and women gaze at you? If you are dressed like that expect people to gaze at you. If you don't want them to don't draw attention to your sexual areas. It's like you completely deny humans are animals. Like i've said, you're just a man hater, and you need to keep up your little battle against them to stand even half a chance of getting laid.
    :sigh:

    when all else fails, resort to add hominem arguments :rolleyes:

    This isn't about me being a man-hater or my chances of getting laid.

    Some women dress "provocatively" (note that this concept has different meanings to different people) for their own satisfaction- they like to look at themselves at the mirror and feel attractive, but this doesn't give men the right to sexually harass them.

    Under the law, for example, the fact that the victim dressed provocatively cannot be used as an excuse for rape.
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    (Original post by Reflexive)
    The radical premise is that men and women are both human beings who should be treated equally, have equal opportunities etc
    as in, treated the same?
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    (Original post by O-Ren)
    What do I want now?

    I'd like more than 6.5% of reported rapes to end in a conviction (it's 25% in France btw)
    That has nothing to do witth feminism. This is about crime and the solution is to make police protection better and educate the public to report after beeing raped.

    I'd like rapists to get more than a year or two in prison
    Sure, but still has nothing to do with feminism. I dislike rapist as well and want them to recieve more than 1 or 2 years in prison.

    I'd like it if the idea that rape is the woman's fault was broken down, and then maybe more than 5-25% of rapes would actually be reported to the police
    Where I live, no one thinks it's the woman's fault that she was raped. Of course it's irresponsible to walk home drunk alone, but it is in no way her fault.


    I'd like it if more could be done to get young girls to see themselves as capable of achieving great things, then maybe so many of us wouldn't have imposter syndrome (MUCH more common in females), and maybe we'd aim higher (it's been proved that when males and females get exactly the same marks in their degree, the male is more likely to go on to phd. Same thing is seen with black people and white people)
    Sure, I would like the same, but the problem is when feminist want to foce men down so women could get up. That's wrong.


    I'd like it if teachers could be more encouraging to women (it has been proven that if a male child and female child are of the same intelligence, the male will get more encouragement and support from the teacher!)

    These are the things I am trying to get now.
    Actually studies have shown that school is designed more for women than men. Women are also doing better than men at school, but there is no way I would think that we should force women down.

    I don't really like feminism very much any more, because feminism isn't about women receiving the same rights as men any more. They already have the same rights as men. Many of the topics mentioned above doesn't really have that much about the feminism agenda, but more about getting rid of social problems.

    What I don't like is for instance the gender pay argument, because they nearly always use wrong numbers. If men works longer hours, then they should receive better pay. The argument that discrimination is the reason for the differences between men and women are ridiculous. If that's true, then employers would only hire women, because they are much cheaper and then you can compete much better. BTW: I am against discrimination and I think there is still some discrimination for job promotions and who they decide to be the boss, but that women receive 85% of the pay of men in Norway, isn't due to discrimination, but the choices women make.

    For instance the nurses in Norway demanded gender pay and said they would receive 15% better pay if women were treated like men. No, they wouldn't because they would still work shorter hours, get babies and choose the same low paid jobs. Actually, the funny thing is that female nurses earn more then male nurses in Norway. . Pretty much no one knows that and the government have decided that men should halt their wages compared to women, like that's going to work. It will only cause a lack of people in jobs men normally choose, and this will cause frictional unemployment. Even some nurses have demanded equal wages for nurses and engineers. :confused:

    Other things, women in Norway have a much easier time to get into engineering courses, some of them are very hard to be admitted. The only fair way would be to do the same for men the other way. Nothing, there is no easy access to courses with a lot of women. In addition, women do better than men at school. In the UK, if you end up having a divorce the woman will have much more right towards the child.

    The problem is that the feminism movement has become more a movement to give women more rights than men and to raise women up in areas they do badly because of choice by giving men a disadvantage. That's why I don't like the feminism movement.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    The same exact argument can be used for business. The aim of the business system is to put people in the right jobs for economic prosperity, it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of gender. So there is no discrimination,
    There clearly still is discrimination in the workplace despite the numerous laws that have been made against it. Women still get paid 22% less even when they have the same jobs as men and the same outcome.
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    (Original post by Seven_Three)
    The same exact argument can be used for business. The aim of the business system is to put people in the right jobs for economic prosperity, it is illegal to discriminate on the grounds of gender. So there is no discrimination,
    The courts don't discriminate in favour of women, it's just a coincidence they get imprisoned less for the same crimes, and get custody of children more:rolleyes:.
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    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    Yep, but only feminine ones. I don't like women who act like men It's not becoming.
    Out of interest, what to you, is 'feminine'?

    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    haha, do you not think that one's gender is a little more important than hair/eye colour when it comes to determining their behaviour? Whether it's inherent or learned, women and men act VERY differently - come on!
    If you had said you found women to generally be more boring than men, then I would not have taken issue. You are right - there are behaviours more common in men than women! But to say ALL women are boring can only be misogynist, because it's ludicrous.

    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    Yes I don't know if I ever said "all" or not, but come on let's not waste time with the old "OMG not EVERY _ _ _ _ _ is _ _ _ _ _!!!!!!". We're talking about trends and what's common. E.g. Men are normally more aggressive (in all senses) than women. Agree? Of course you do. There are some women who are more aggressive than some men, but that's not important.
    yup and I have never said otherwise

    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    Macho women avoid me, feminine women adore me.
    Adore you do they? I think we both know that's a lie. You almost never go out, when you do it's alone, and you have no friends due to people finding your views disagreeable, women constantly turn you down because they perceive you to be a player. You posted it all on here yourself :P

    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    Why is it horrific or even a bad thing to do at all? Women and cats have many similarities, I think. Comparing and contrasting humans with animals is something that's been going on since the dawn of time, and I have no problem with it. I've been compared to wide range of different animals and I don't object. Being like a cat sounds pretty complimentary, tbh.
    How is being compared to a cat complimentary?

    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    yes, omg, leave it out!

    Do you feel that those are the only two inherent congitive differences between a man and a woman?
    No, those were just examples.

    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    If you raised 1000 girls as though they were boys, and 1000 boys as though they were girls, do you think that they would be indistinguishable from comparison groups of genetic boys/girls apart from their spatial and language abilities?
    No, like I said the spatial/language thing was an example

    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    I wonder, what, if any, charactersists/traits/lifestyles do you think warrant a description as either masculine or feminine (or similar terms)? Do you think those terms have any legitimate uses?
    Absolutely none. No quality - even aggression - like you mentioned can be counted as masculine. To do so is actually sexist towards men.
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    The thing is, in cases of sexual harassment, the man is merely staring at the woman for his own sexual satisfaction, not to gain her attention and ask her out on a date. There is a difference between trying to catch a woman's eye and harassing her by gazing at her butt as she walks down the street.
    But that is quite uncommon, and even then you have to find a line I can understand if I am drunk and see a girl I like and eye her up because I fancy her may make her uncomfortable but I was doing it in a drunk way but still have respect however you could argue that I saw her as a sexual object.

    A difference between say someone who is a jack the lad who goes out expecting sex and flirts with every woman he meets as he is caring more about the sex.

    And women can and are quite vulgar on a night out, my dads an ex policeman and even he said in the 70's and 80's there is nothing worse than a group of drunk women as they get over the top and get very attention seeking, and often I have gone out and seen hen nights with girls with dildos or blow up willies and go up to random blokes as dares, I have even seen women be as forward who are NOT on a hen night, just like whenever I see girls in a limo they open all the windows and scream at every bloke and often ask them to get their willies out.
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    (Original post by ciawhobat)
    as in, treated the same?
    yes. why do you attempt to differentiate?
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    (Original post by MrHappy_J)
    There clearly still is discrimination in the workplace despite the numerous laws that have been made against it. Women still get paid 22% less even when they have the same jobs as men and the same outcome.
    Logic fail. Why wouldn't companies employ just women if they could get the same work done for less money? Surely companies with a greater female composition would be more successful? The reverse is true. The NHS has the biggest staffing issues of any organisation in the world, because the majority of it's staff are women.
 
 
 
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